Spurs vs. Nuggets Game 2 - Grades

[aaronstampler]

Whatever dude. I already pointed out the numbers to you. Elson is -.43 per minute and Manu is -.06, and you're saying they've been equally as bad.

That's -20.6 per 48 for Elson, -3.2 for Manu.

But go ahead and pretend they're close.


We're giving up 96.8 per 48 minutes on defense with him and 101.3 with Tony, but Manu's been the terrible defensive player.


Manu played a D game on in Game 1 and a B game in Game 2. Not an F and a C. That's all I've said. Your stats are ill-researched and out of context. If this is the vein you'd like to go in, then you should advocate Brent Barry playing a lot more and as far as I know, you haven't.

[timvp]

Whatever dude. I already pointed out the numbers to you. Elson is -.43 per minute and Manu is -.06, and you're saying they've been equally as bad.

That's -20.6 per 48 for Elson, -3.2 for Manu.

But go ahead and pretend they're close.

Net Points per 100 Possessions
Francisco Elson: -32.2
Manu Ginobili: -26.0

Yeah, they're close. Don't hate, calculate.

We're giving up 96.8 per 48 minutes on defense with him and 101.3 with Tony, but Manu's been the terrible defensive player.

Not everything is life is Tony versus Manu. And I've freakin' said over and over that Parker's defense was bad in Game 1. And since he's actually guarding an NBA player, Parker playing bad defense hurts the Spurs even worse than if Ginobili is playing horrible defense.

But that doesn't change the fact that Ginobili played pathetic defense is Game 1 and improved greatly in Game 2.

Manu played a D game on in Game 1 and a B game in Game 2. Not an F and a C. That's all I've said. Your stats are ill-researched and out of context. If this is the vein you'd like to go in, then you should advocate Brent Barry playing a lot more and as far as I know, you haven't.

You're the one who will only consider stats that make Manu look good. When it doesn't, all of a sudden that type of stat is off limits.

And you're the one that said Manu should shoot more shots on the season than Parker even though Manu plays 500 less minutes because Manu is the more efficient scorer. I pointed out to you that if that is going to be the aaronstampler philosophy, Manu should be deferring to Brent Barry.

Because it seems you need hand holding through the logic, I said that regarding Barry because you seem to have no concept that a player like Manu or Barry is so efficient because they have good shot selection. You can't just feed a highly efficient player constantly and expect them to keep the same level of efficiency. It doesn't work that way. I assumed you understood that, but I must have overestimated.

But keep being the Manu cheerleader. Maybe one day he'll sign your pompoms.

[aaronstampler]

Net Points per 100 Possessions
Francisco Elson: -32.2
Manu Ginobili: -26.0

Yeah, they're close. Don't hate, calculate.

You're talking about different things. I'm talking +/-, you're talking net points. They're different stats. +/- is just what happens when Manu's on the floor. Net points shows what happens when he's not. You're being either disingenuous or flat out stupid acting like they're the same stat when they're not.

[timvp]

You're talking about different things. I'm talking +/-, you're talking net points. They're different stats. +/- is just what happens when Manu's on the floor. Net points shows what happens when he's not. You're being either disengunuous or flat out stupid acting like they're the same stat when they're not.

WTF? Can you not read?

In the playoffs, the two worst Spurs as far as +/- per 100 possession when on the court compared to when they are off the court:

Elson: -32.2
Ginobili: -26.0

Got damn.

[aaronstampler]

Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing? That's kind a dumb concept. The stat's you make are when you're on the court. When they start showing stats you're making when you're on the bench, that's a mathematician with too much time on his hands.

[aaronstampler]

We've outscored the Nuggets by 3 points in 2 games LJ, and Beno hasn't played. I guess according to the net stat, we can argue he's a +1.5.

[timvp]

Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing? That's kind a dumb concept. The stat's you make are when you're on the court. When they start showing stats you're making when you're on the bench, that's a mathematician with too much time on his hands.

Uh, because if the team is playing better with you on the bench, that's probably not a good sign of how you are playing. This is another example of you trying to all of a sudden not use a stat because it doesn't make Manu look great.

And don't act like you never use net points. Every time you point out that Manu makes all his teammates better, that compares production with Manu on the court with production with Manu off the court. And you bring up that stat more than anyone else on the forum combined.

Amazing.

[aaronstampler]

No, that's a player pairs thing. It's still +/- based.

[timvp]

No, that's a player pairs thing. It's still +/- based.

Player pairs uses stats ac ulated when *gasp* a player isn't on the court to compare to when a player is on the court. If Oberto is a +20 when Manu is on the court and a +10 overall, to even get to that point, you have to look at production from when Manu isn't on the court.

But according to you, that doesn't matter.

Remember?

Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing?

If you don't care about using stats from when a player isn't playing, then you shouldn't care about your favorite "player pairs" stats.

[aaronstampler]

Hey take a wild guess how many seconds Tim Duncan hasn't played in the two games so far when Manu has been on the bench in the two games.

That's right. Zero.

I wonder if it might skew the numbers a bit that the team's best player is always on the court when Manu isn't playing. I wonder.

There's a name for the group of people on the floor when he's sitting Tim, and it's called the starters. Pop is depending on Manu and four scrubs to hold the fort for 10 minutes a night while Tim rests. And he's been a + in both games so far while Tim and Tony were sucking oxygen. And game 2 showed he's pretty good playing with just Timmy too.

The only negative has been when he's played with Tony or both.

[GrandeDavid]

Pop[/b]
Even though the Spurs won, I wasn't very pleased with Pop tonight. There's no way that Duncan should only play 33 minutes in a must-win situation. Especially when Duncan was never in foul trouble. Sitting Duncan at the end of the first half cost the Spurs seven points in two minutes. And then Pop rested him way too long before putting him back in the fourth. I also think he needs to play Elson even less than he is playing him. Offensively, the Spurs aren't posting up Duncan enough and they aren't putting Parker or Manu in positions that they can succeed enough of the time. Either post up Duncan more or isolate Parker and Manu more. Running high post with Duncan or side pick-and-rolls hasn't been effective this series. The offense needs to be simplified to utilize the talent and the lack of defensive players on the Nuggets. Defensively, the Spurs need to be faster about rotating off of Blake or Kleiza. I'd rather see those guys knock down a few shots before I see Nene rolling to the basket or AI and Melo open for three.
Grade: D

I agree that Pop messed up some usage of Duncan's minutes. However, you gotta like the fact that they did get a win with him only playing 33 minutes. That was definitely risky, and had the Spurs lost, Pop would've been bashed to no end. Still, you gotta like Tim Duncan going into Denver confident and as well-rested as he's been in the playoffs in years. His confidence is high because he made key baskets on the offensive end and made some nice defensive plays, including five blocks. I think Duncan will play closer to 40 minutes in Game 3, however.

[T Park]

AAron is easily the hardest core of manu homers I've ever seen.

Christ.

"But im not a manu homer"

NAHHHHHH

[aaronstampler]

AAron is easily the hardest core of manu homers I've ever seen.

Christ.

"But im not a manu homer"

NAHHHHHH

Coming from a guy who cleans up elephant for a living and doesn't actually watch the games, that hurts TPark. It really, really hurts.

[SequSpur]

Coming from a guy who cleans up elephant for a living and doesn't actually watch the games, that hurts TPark. It really, really hurts.

tparowned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!