Come up to north Dallas. Maybe you'll get a clue.
Just because some neocons dont support it per se, doesnt mean that they wont change their minds or it wont happen. The Council of Foreign Relations even called for “the creation by 2010 of a North American community.... Its boundaries will be defined by a common external tariff and an outer security perimeter within which the movement of people, products, and capital will be legal, orderly, and safe. Its goal will be to guarantee a free, secure, just, and prosperous North America.”
Tell that to Californian's who donated to the Enron tax and still suffered roving black-outs. CPS isn't privately owned, but yet it's one of the most efficient utility companies in Texas, , the whole U.S....companies are moving here because of our cheap rates....
Yeah Scott, private investors are just gonna throw hand-fulls of money along with gum drops and lollipops at a venture that couldn't even pay off it's loans. that'll happen....It doesn't matter if it a foreign company or a domestic one, if that company defaults on it's loan, then someone else will have to pick up the tab. Congrats on your "duh!" moment of the day, Dan. It doesn't matter if they are based in Spain or in San Antonio - it all works out the same.
Your an economist, right Scott? Destroying our existing 4 lane freeway and rebuilding it into a 4 lane tollway with cement barriers and complex entrances and exits and with 4 lane freeway to the outside is a WASTE of taxpayer money and scarce resources compared to the less invasive, more affordable option of simply adding the two originally planned non-toll lanes down the existing median using gas taxes or bonds.Um... ANY roads will compete for scarce resources, regardless of how they are paid for. Engineers and concrete won't suddenly be in more supply if the government announces they will pay for the roads with some indexed gas tax. The self-perpetuating cycle is a product of your own complaining nature.
$1.25 for tolls? Think again....try 29 cents per mile on 1604 to $1.50 per mile in Austin...BTW, lol @ Dan trying to tie gas prices and tolls together on this. You do realize that by taking toll roads, paying your $1.25 or whatever, and turning a two hour parking lot commute into a 30 minute jaunt home, you just covered your tolls with your savings in fuel burned, right?
Toll roads are a incentive for people to drive more, use more gas, indexed gas-tax is a incentive to get people to drive a little less and still finanace more news roads in the process.Whether you pay for it when you get on a toll ramp (which you have an OPTION not to do) or you pay for it with every gallon you put in your tank of gas, you are still paying for it! What are these "far cheaper costs"
SW, your access road now would be the toll-free interstate, so if that backed up (which it will, daily), your SOL...Cool ... that's all I needed to know.
Maybe the tolls are different there, cause the North Dallas Tollway is always a nightmare, the Bush isn't that bad but that's because it doesn't really go anywhere.
Every time I see this thread le on the front page, I read it as Video of the 1604 Trolls
Wow! You pointed out an example of extreme corporate corruption, I guess that totally means that government en ies are more efficient than private ones. Venezuela should be the next economic superpower any day now!
Tell that to Californian's who donated to the Enron tax and still suffered roving black-outs. CPS isn't privately owned, but yet it's one of the most efficient utility companies in Texas, , the whole U.S....companies are moving here because of our cheap rates....
As for CPS, yes it is INEXPENSIVE, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily efficient (the question is, could it be even less expensive if under different management). The last major comprehensive study of the efficiency of utility providers in the US didn't even have CPS in the top 100.
http://www.pur.com/pubs/2492.cfm
With that said, CPS has changed a lot since thing, and I do think they are one of the most efficient in the country, but that doesn't disprove the notion of private industry being more efficient than government run organizations. In reality, the idea of private industry being more efficient is a fact on the same level of evolution. You are free to disagree if you like, but it puts in a certain community when you do.
They sure as will when they can acquire the assets at a fraction of the original cost. The economics would be very compelling for a private company to come in. You act like this doesn't happen all the time with companies being purchased out of bankruptcy proceedings.Yeah Scott, private investors are just gonna throw hand-fulls of money along with gum drops and lollipops at a venture that couldn't even pay off it's loans. that'll happen....
Even then, its an unlikely scenario to begin with. This isn't the Buddy Holly of toll roads proposing a project like this, it's companies who have done it before and know what they are doing. They've done their due diligence and the risks, while still present, are much more subdued than you seem to think.
1) Your original post detailed with the ownership of the freeway and how a private (and foreign) firm would result in this never ending cycle of upward costs. My response was that it doesn't matter who owns them, the same materials are requiredYour an economist, right Scott? Destroying our existing 4 lane freeway and rebuilding it into a 4 lane tollway with cement barriers and complex entrances and exits and with 4 lane freeway to the outside is a WASTE of taxpayer money and scarce resources compared to the less invasive, more affordable option of simply adding the two originally planned non-toll lanes down the existing median using gas taxes or bonds.
2) Now you are talking about the design of the freeway. Sure, a different design is required than just adding two lanes in the existing median. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not those lanes or tolled. The reason this option is not being pursued is simple: two more lanes is not sufficient to handle the traffic load, especially if they are not being tolled. As soon as they are open, people who currently avoid 1604 because it is too crowded will immediately jump on to the point where it is just as crowded as it was before. It goes back to the basic economics of any public good. A good that has no marginal cost to be used will always be subject to overcrowding.
3) While a debate over the design of the roads is important, it is outside of the purview of a toll road discussion. The incremental costs to barrier off the tolls (to avoid people "cheating" the system) is so relatively small that the effect on the markets for things like concrete will be insignificant.
Link?$1.25 for tolls? Think again....try 29 cents per mile on 1604 to $1.50 per mile in Austin...
Toll roads are an incentive for people to drive more? Since when? How will having the option to pay MORE for something encourage you to do more of an existing alternative.Toll roads are a incentive for people to drive more, use more gas, indexed gas-tax is a incentive to get people to drive a little less and still finanace more news roads in the process.
The only part of this point is that an increased (call it indexed or whatever you want) gas tax would reduce comsumption of gasoline - but not by much. motor fuels have proven in the short term to be highly inelastic (record prices, yet continual strong demand growth in recent years), and prices are already at a high enough level to incentivize R&D into alternative fuels. I agree that a higher gas tax would help push that along, but very minimally.
So, if reducing demand for fuels is not a major result... then it must be about how we finance the roads. Like I've said... oh, 3 times now, toll roads SHOULD NOT be about how to finance a road, but how to reduce congestion, which they have proven to do. The financing arguement is another all together - but with gas tax funding you are just creating a negative externality and shifting the cost of the new roads on to people who will never use them. Why should the residents of the Southside pay for Stone Oak's new highway? With a toll road, the costs are firmly placed on the people who wish to pay for it.
So basically for SW it will be like it is now... except she'll have an option to bypass all that. And somehow you think this is a negative change in her life.SW, your access road now would be the toll-free interstate, so if that backed up (which it will, daily), your SOL...
Not that I'm expecting you to grasp this basic logic.
Wow! You pointed out an example of extreme corporate corruption, I guess that totally means that government en ies are more efficient than private ones. Venezuela should be the next economic superpower any day now!
As for CPS, yes it is INEXPENSIVE, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily efficient (the question is, could it be even less expensive if under different management). The last major comprehensive study of the efficiency of utility providers in the US didn't even have CPS in the top 100.
http://www.pur.com/pubs/2492.cfm
With that said, CPS has changed a lot since thing, and I do think they are one of the most efficient in the country, but that doesn't disprove the notion of private industry being more efficient than government run organizations. In reality, the idea of private industry being more efficient is a fact on the same level of evolution. You are free to disagree if you like, but it puts in a certain community when you do.
They sure as will when they can acquire the assets at a fraction of the original cost. The economics would be very compelling for a private company to come in. You act like this doesn't happen all the time with companies being purchased out of bankruptcy proceedings.
Even then, its an unlikely scenario to begin with. This isn't the Buddy Holly of toll roads proposing a project like this, it's companies who have done it before and know what they are doing. They've done their due diligence and the risks, while still present, are much more subdued than you seem to think.
1) Your original post detailed with the ownership of the freeway and how a private (and foreign) firm would result in this never ending cycle of upward costs. My response was that it doesn't matter who owns them, the same materials are required
2) Now you are talking about the design of the freeway. Sure, a different design is required than just adding two lanes in the existing median. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not those lanes or tolled. The reason this option is not being pursued is simple: two more lanes is not sufficient to handle the traffic load, especially if they are not being tolled. As soon as they are open, people who currently avoid 1604 because it is too crowded will immediately jump on to the point where it is just as crowded as it was before. It goes back to the basic economics of any public good. A good that has no marginal cost to be used will always be subject to overcrowding.
3) While a debate over the design of the roads is important, it is outside of the purview of a toll road discussion. The incremental costs to barrier off the tolls (to avoid people "cheating" the system) is so relatively small that the effect on the markets for things like concrete will be insignificant.
Link?
Toll roads are an incentive for people to drive more? Since when? How will having the option to pay MORE for something encourage you to do more of an existing alternative.
The only part of this point is that an increased (call it indexed or whatever you want) gas tax would reduce comsumption of gasoline - but not by much. motor fuels have proven in the short term to be highly inelastic (record prices, yet continual strong demand growth in recent years), and prices are already at a high enough level to incentivize R&D into alternative fuels. I agree that a higher gas tax would help push that along, but very minimally.
So, if reducing demand for fuels is not a major result... then it must be about how we finance the roads. Like I've said... oh, 3 times now, toll roads SHOULD NOT be about how to finance a road, but how to reduce congestion, which they have proven to do. The financing arguement is another all together - but with gas tax funding you are just creating a negative externality and shifting the cost of the new roads on to people who will never use them. Why should the residents of the Southside pay for Stone Oak's new highway? With a toll road, the costs are firmly placed on the people who wish to pay for it.
So basically for SW it will be like it is now... except she'll have an option to bypass all that. And somehow you think this is a negative change in her life.
Not that I'm expecting you to grasp this basic logic.
While the above has wonderfully managed to "virtually slap" Dan, I'll save you some time:
The idea of tolling 1604 is supported by a republican, therefore Dan hates it, won't listen to facts about it, and will throw out as many shocking statistics (albeit mostly false) in order to try and persuade anyone that will take the time to read it.
Having said that, Dan is in the minority and the roads are going to be built, I promise.
be honest.
do you think a person FOR tollroads is more or less likely to support the war in iraq than a person against tollroads?
WHY do you think thats so?
Be honest...
Do you think anyone with half a brain fails to see what a tool you are?
Why do you think thats so?
Some good reading for those interested in more of the real debate behind this matter, as opposed to pointing jabber such as mookie's.
Study of Congestion Pricing (read tolls) by a Cal Berkeley Civil Engineering student
http://www.sfbayite.org/events/Mtg_2..._ITE-Paper.pdf
Phased in implementation
http://www.reason.org/ps170.html
A primer to congestion pricing
http://www.calccit.org/itsdecision/s...g_summary.html
Principles of congestion pricing
http://www.hhh.umn.edu/centers/slp/projects/conpric/
A good FAQ from the University of Minnesota
FACTS & FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Value Pricing Is About Managing Congestion
The point is not just to impose tolls, but to use tolls selectively to reduce traffic on congested highways during peak travel times. During the evening rush, 25% or more of the cars on the road are not people coming home from work. A peak-period toll would encourage some of these discretionary travelers to make their trips off-peak, or to use less congested routes. Because congestion grows exponentially as roads near capacity, even a small reduction in the number of cars on the road can substantially reduce congestion-related delays and crashes.
There Are No Toll Booths
Electronic toll collection, usually through an inexpensive windshield-mounted transponder, is a mature technology in use throughout the world. Tolls are subtracted from a debit card in the transponder—no record is kept of who travels where. All this is done at normal driving speeds—manual toll booths would stop traffic and thus miss the whole point of using value pricing, which is to make traffic move faster.
Value Pricing Complements Transit And Highway Expansion
Selective tolls used alone can reduce traffic during peak periods, but their effectiveness can be greatly enhanced when the revenues are used to improve the system by improving transit and other options, and by highway expansion where appropriate. By providing a financial incentive to use transit, peak-period tolls could provide both a revenue source and a market for transit, neither of which might be as firm otherwise. And by creating a source of location-specific funding, tolls could accelerate the construction of highway expansions that otherwise could be delayed for years waiting for funding. Top.
It won’t work. People have to drive during congested times, otherwise they wouldn’t put up with it.
Actually 25% or more of the cars on the road during the peak hour are not commuting. The positive impact of pricing would come from a combination of some of these discretionary trips moving to other times, and some drivers shifting to other routes, carpooling, or riding the bus. Pricing can only work well when there are good alternatives available; this is why at least some of the revenue from pricing should go to support improved transit service in the affected corridor.
Wouldn’t tolls push traffic onto neighborhood streets?
This issue will vary depending on the unique characteristics of the project. It may be necessary to include traffic calming strategies in addition to transit improvement strategies. But without pricing, neighborhood streets can still be clogged with people trying to bypass unexpected congestion. One advantage of pricing might be that people change modes or time of travel, so that there will be fewer cars to start with, and potentially less need for local diversion.
We’ve already paid for the roads.
The gas tax typically does not even cover the costs of ongoing maintenance of roads, let alone raise enough money for needed expansions and new roads. As a result, a substantial percentage of the costs of building and maintaining roads comes from sources such as property and sales taxes, where payments are completely unrelated to how much one actually drives. Money raised by congestion tolls could be used to replace these non-transportation taxes. Top.
Why not just raise the gas tax?
Raising the gas tax would generate more revenue, but would not have the other beneficial effects of congestion pricing. The point of congestion pricing is to reduce problematic trips, specifically those on congested roads. Raising the gas tax might have a small impact on the total amount of driving people do, but would probably have a relatively bigger impact on off-peak recreational trips. The overall effect would be to reduce traffic at times that weren’t congested to start with, while leaving peak period congestion largely unchanged. A longer term problem is that within a few years, many vehicles may not run on traditional fuels, and could end up paying no tax at all.
This seems like an invasion of privacy.
Transponders with embedded money work essentially as cash; the toll is deducted from the transponder itself and no record is kept of the transaction. However, this requires that the transponder is kept "loaded" with money. A newer and possibly more convenient option (used in Australia) uses license plate recognition to identify users, and bills are paid through credit cards or other means. In this case, a record is kept of trips; however, technical and legal constraints can guarantee that this information is not used for purposes other than billing.
What is a HOT lane?
The phrase "High Occupancy Toll lane" refers to a situation where solo drivers are allowed to buy access to special lanes that are free for carpools and buses. This is the most common current application of value pricing in the U.S. In the case of SR 91 in California, the lanes were designed to be operated this way. In other cases, this technique has been used to more efficiently use space on existing but underused carpool lanes. Top.
But if people can use the carpool lanes by paying, won’t they quit carpooling?
Exactly the opposite has occurred on I-15 and SR 91 in California. When variable pricing went into effect, more people switched to carpools. Seemingly, seeing a price attached to the road made people feel that carpooling was a better "deal."
Isn’t this just giving an advantage to rich people?
The reality based on experience with California projects is that people of all income levels use these lanes, but very few people use them every day. The tolls are typically in the range of $2 -$4. Almost anyone can afford this on the occasional days that they are in a particular hurry; on other days they simply use the regular lanes.
why wont you answer the question? /chumpdumper
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
