Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 176
  1. #101
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Extra Stout, what you're saying -- to me, at least -- is that the bleeding heart liberal left is a sham. That if they can't get government to spend my money on your health then they will just give up and not do a damn thing about it.

    Right?

    Charitible giving us way up in this country. I don't think it's possible for this nation to go back to the era you described. And, if there is another depression, there won't be any federal money for health care either.

  2. #102
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    Extra Stout, what you're saying -- to me, at least -- is that the bleeding heart liberal left is a sham. That if they can't get government to spend my money on your health then they will just give up and not do a damn thing about it.

    Right?

    Charitible giving us way up in this country. I don't think it's possible for this nation to go back to the era you described. And, if there is another depression, there won't be any federal money for health care either.
    The reason they try to get government to do it is because it has the coercive power to tax, which provides a rather strong funding source.

    Now it is perfectly valid to say that your money should not go to pay for the health care of somebody else who can't afford to pay, and that the people who care about such things should place the burden upon themselves to fund it. That just depends upon your personal values.

    It is rather disingenuous just to assume that other people will stand in the gap, however. The testimony of history and of the rest of the world says that they don't.

    Charitable giving is way up in the United States. The middle class gives five times as much as a share of their income as the wealthy do to charity, and if you take away a small handful of philanthropists, the disparity is even greater. The middle class is the reason giving is up.

    And you are correct that if there is another depression, there won't be any money for health care. In fact, the quickest way to a depression for us is to run up such a huge debt that the market loses confidence in the dollar. And we're on that path right now with Medicare/Medicaid and the Iraq war.

    With Medicare/Medicaid at least, we can either do nothing until we go bankrupt, drop the program entirely and just hope people won't revolt, or identify and cut out the nearly $1 trillion-per-year waste in the system.

  3. #103
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    The reason they try to get government to do it is because it has the coercive power to tax, which provides a rather strong funding source.

    Now it is perfectly valid to say that your money should not go to pay for the health care of somebody else who can't afford to pay, and that the people who care about such things should place the burden upon themselves to fund it. That just depends upon your personal values.

    It is rather disingenuous just to assume that other people will stand in the gap, however. The testimony of history and of the rest of the world says that they don't.
    There's no other place in the world like America and we're not even the same country we were in the early part of the last century.

    Charity doesn't belong in the cons ution. You shouldn't be able to take money from me, by force, and give it to someone else. That's a relatively new concept in this country that the socialist liberals have exploited rather well.

    Charitable giving is way up in the United States. The middle class gives five times as much as a share of their income as the wealthy do to charity, and if you take away a small handful of philanthropists, the disparity is even greater. The middle class is the reason giving is up.

    And you are correct that if there is another depression, there won't be any money for health care. In fact, the quickest way to a depression for us is to run up such a huge debt that the market loses confidence in the dollar. And we're on that path right now with Medicare/Medicaid and the Iraq war.

    With Medicare/Medicaid at least, we can either do nothing until we go bankrupt, drop the program entirely and just hope people won't revolt, or identify and cut out the nearly $1 trillion-per-year waste in the system.
    You cut the waste by privatizing medical care.

  4. #104
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    Here's an example of free-market/commercial-for-profit health care pricing in a a quote I received a few months ago for an OUT-PATIENT procedure:

    If you have insurance, the procedure costs $137K.
    If you don't have insurance, the procedure costs $37K.

  5. #105
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    Not only is demographics (Baby Boomers over 60) putting pressure on health care expenditures, but gluttony is, too.

    ===================

    Study predicts 75 percent overweight in U.S. by 2015

    Wed Jul 18, 6:45 PM ET

    If people keep gaining weight at the current rate, fat will be the norm by 2015, with 75 percent of U.S. adults overweight and 41 percent obese, U.S. researchers predicted on Wednesday.

    ( "norm"? how about "average"? norm implies an authoritative target, a rightness or correctness or idealness, as in "normal weight". )

    A team at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore examined 20 studies published in journals and looked at national surveys of weight and behavior for their analysis, published in the journal Epidemiologic Reviews.

    "Obesity is a public health crisis. If the rate of obesity and overweight continues at this pace, by 2015, 75 percent of adults and nearly 24 percent of U.S. children and adolescents will be overweight or obese," Dr. Youfa Wang, who led the study, said in a statement.

    They defined adult overweight and obesity using a standard medical definition called body mass index. People with a BMI of 25 or above are considered overweight, while those with BMIs of 30 or above are obese and at serious risk of heart disease, diabetes and some cancers.

    ( BMI haters, chime in )

    Studies show that 66 percent of U.S. adults were overweight or obese in 2003 and 2004. An alarming 80 percent of black women aged 40 or over are overweight and 50 percent are obese.

    ( My guess is that Hispanic women are right there or not far "behind". Genetic or cultural? Hispanic men like their women in barrel shapes? )

    Sixteen percent of U.S. children and adolescents are overweight and 34 percent are at risk of becoming overweight, according to federal government figures.

    Every group is steadily getting heavier, Wang said.

    "Our analysis showed patterns of obesity or overweight for various groups of Americans," said May Beydoun, who worked on the study.

    "Obesity is likely to continue to increase, and if nothing is done, it will soon become the leading preventable cause of death in the United States."

    Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited.

    ===========
    ,
    As these obese people, very often, on the low-end of the economic totem pole get seriously, chronically sick with life-style diseases such Type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc, the government will pick up tab, an ad lib, de facto national health insurance plan.

    Doesn't it make more sense to have a designed national health plan? We know the conservatives would never infringe on these people's absolute freedoms to sicken themselves. The Repugs running Agri/Food Biz, Big Pharma, AMA, HMOs, insurance companies would never interfere with the $Bs of tax dollars flowing into their pockets from treating these people.

  6. #106
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    As these obese people, very often, on the low-end of the economic totem pole get seriously, chronically sick with life-style diseases such Type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc, the government will pick up tab, an ad lib, de facto national health insurance plan.

    Doesn't it make more sense to have a designed national health plan? We know the conservatives would never infringe on these people's absolute freedoms to sicken themselves. The Repugs running Agri/Food Biz, Big Pharma, AMA, HMOs, insurance companies would never interfere with the $Bs of tax dollars flowing into their pockets from treating these people.
    You need to think out of the box. Why treat the chronically-ill poor? You save a lot of money if you let them die -- maybe enough for a tax cut.

  7. #107
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Post Count
    8,869
    but you can't assist them in dying a less painful death

  8. #108
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    but you can't assist them in dying a less painful death
    But life is precious.

  9. #109
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Who's Really 'Sicko'
    In Canada, dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week. Humans can wait two to three years.

    Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:01 a.m.

    TORONTO--"I haven't seen 'Sicko,' " says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore do entary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario's provincial government about its health-care system next month.

    Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he's suing for the right to opt out of Canada's government-run health care, which he considers dangerous.

    Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "access to wait lists is not access to health care," striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.

    In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore's do entary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.

    It's not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon.

    Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "It's a fabulous system," a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient's husband explains: "It's not America." Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."

    It's compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.

    Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore's claim that ERs don't overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits," reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average; one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.

    This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.

    In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his do entary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over.

    France's system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.

    With such problems, it's not surprising that people are looking for alternatives. Private clinics--some operating in a "gray zone" of the law--are now opening in Canada at a rate of about one per week.

    Canadian doctors, once quiet on the issue of private health care, elected Brian Day as president of their national association. Dr. Day is a leading critic of Canadian medicare; he opened a private surgery hospital and then challenged the government to shut it down. "This is a country," Dr. Day said by way of explanation, "in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."

    Market reforms are catching on in Britain, too. For six decades, its socialist Labour Party scoffed at the very idea of private medicine, dismissing it as "Americanization." Today Labour favors privatization, promising to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures provided within two years. The Labour government aspires to give patients a choice of four providers for surgeries, at least one of them private, and recently considered the contracting out of some primary-care services--perhaps even to American companies.

    Other European countries follow this same path. In Sweden, after the latest privatizations, the government will contract out some 80% of Stockholm's primary care and 40% of total health services, including Stockholm's largest hospital. Beginning before the election of the new conservative chancellor, Germany enhanced insurance compe ion and turned state enterprises over to the private sector (including the majority of public hospitals). Even in Slovakia, a former Marxist country, privatizations are actively debated.

    Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.

    Admittedly, the recent market reforms are gradual and controversial. But facts are facts, the reforms are real, and they represent a major trend in health care. What does Mr. Moore's do entary say about that? Nothing.

    Dr. Gratzer, a practicing physician licensed in Canada and the U.S. and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Ins ute, is the author of "The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care" (Encounter, 2006).
    Yeah, we want that system.

  10. #110
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    I'm shocked that a publication by and for the investor class tells horror stories in order to protect a system that benefits the investor class at the expense of everybody else. I remember Pravda made it read like every other American was homeless back in the 1980's.

  11. #111
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    Let's see... my family is at nine months and counting for a life-saving surgery. I must not live in the United States.

  12. #112
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Let's see... my family is at nine months and counting for a life-saving surgery. I must not live in the United States.
    What kind of surgery?

  13. #113
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    What kind of surgery?
    I'll admit it's not a hip replacement.

  14. #114
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    I'll admit it's not a hip replacement.
    So, what is it?

  15. #115
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Post Count
    8,869
    tell us your personal business, ES.

  16. #116
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    tell us your personal business, ES.
    First of all, he said family so, is there any chance we're going to know any more about ES than before if he just reveals the surgery?

    I think he's avoiding because the surgery probably requires something that can't just be conjured up on short notice -- a donor.

  17. #117
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    I'm shocked that a publication by and for the investor class tells horror stories in order to protect a system that benefits the investor class at the expense of everybody else. I remember Pravda made it read like every other American was homeless back in the 1980's.
    So, you're calling them liars?

  18. #118
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    I'll admit it's not a hip replacement.
    Look, you don't have to answer but, I'm curious as to what lifesaving surgery could be withheld for 9 months, in this country, and not make front page news.

    Awaiting a donor? Experimental treatment?

    I'm curious.

  19. #119
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    "You save a lot of money if you let them die"

    This was an observation in France a few years,where it was calculated the smokers died sooner of lung cancer and other diseases than non-smokers. Even if it were expensive to treat them until they died in the 50s or 60s, that was cheaper for the country than having them live until 80+, paying their pensions, and covering their increasing old-age medical costs for 20+ years.

    There was a recent report that showed low/uninsured US people putting off medical care in their late 50s, early 60s, until they hit 65 become covered by Medicare, at which point they dumped their pent-up health care demands on Medicare. Delayed medical care is often more expensive because the problems have worsened.

    Same situation that led Austin to offer free medical care to poor people rather than have them arrive in emergency rooms (dubya's Queen Antoinette solution) with worse and much more expensive problems.

  20. #120
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    I think he's avoiding because the surgery probably requires something that can't just be conjured up on short notice -- a donor.
    It wouldn't make any sense to bring it up in this conversation if it were that.

    But no, I'm not going to get specific.

  21. #121
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    So, you're calling them liars?
    They didn't make the story up, but certainly they are cherry-picking an anecdote that fits their ideological agenda.

  22. #122
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    It wouldn't make any sense to bring it up in this conversation if it were that.

    But no, I'm not going to get specific.
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, there isn't any life-saving surgery, short of transplant or experimental, that one would have to wait nine months to receive, in this country.

    If you're not going to help figure it out, why'd you even bring it up?

  23. #123
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    It wouldn't make any sense to bring it up in this conversation if it were that.

    But no, I'm not going to get specific.
    So obviously it must have something to do with a
    lack of funds to obtain the procedure.

  24. #124
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, there isn't any life-saving surgery, short of transplant or experimental, that one would have to wait nine months to receive, in this country.

    If you're not going to help figure it out, why'd you even bring it up?
    Well, going through the process (and it is a loooooooooooooong process) has opened my eyes to a lot, and changed my mind about the state of health care in this country. I should have known that revealing a personal detail in a political forum was a mistake, since it opens me up to attack.

    I am lucky I have decent insurance, but I see a lot of people who don't.

  25. #125
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    They didn't make the story up, but certainly they are cherry-picking an anecdote that fits their ideological agenda.
    I'm looking for the source but, I heard today -- in a discussion about the article I just posted -- a couple of other things.

    1) There are over a million people on waiting lists for medical care in Britain. And, there are over 200,000 people waiting to get onto a waiting list. I don't think we have that magnitude of a problem in the U.S.

    2) There's an entrepeneur in Canada that started a limousine service that takes Canadians to New York State for medical care. He's making a mint.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •