Even in preseason the Mavs are getting on!

[lefty]

"Mavs are soft!"

"Mavs are too thuggish for their own good."

Pick a lane please.

I'll pick the 1st one

[stretch]

I'd bet that you've never played anything, and spend a lot of time listening to rap, because you have a re ed and adolescent sense of compe ion.

Not sure what listening to rap has to do with anything... But I play quite a bit of basketball too, and one thing is for sure... people don't ever want to pick up someone that is soft as nails, takes crap, doesn't mind losing to keep peace, and doesn't use opponents trash talking and "punking" as motivation.

[stretch]

So...if someone disagrees with you...they can't have possibly played any organized sports ever and do not know anything as much as you?


I did play several sports well into high school and I understand totally the whole mental aspect. I just think that its more important to win the game then to worry about what someone on the other team thinks. Personally, I respected every opponent I faced until they gave me reason not to. If they think i'm weak, fine..that works to my advantage. Bottom line is that the team win is the most important, if they think i'm weak, but my team wins...who cares? Personal feelings are secondary to the team dynamic. Like this here, for some reason you chose to make it personal just because I disagreed with you. That is your choice. I didn't see the need to since we weren't talking about me but you have the right to post as you see fit. It doesn't bother me, made me curious, not im not hurt or upset.

My point still stands however. If (and I am not saying this is the case) Josh Howard and the Mavericks care more about what other teams think of them and make proving they are not "punks" their primary focus instead of winning a le, then they are not championship caliber. Personally, I think they are of that caliber, they are perfectly capable of winning a le and too good of a team to have to resort to being thugs.

I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

And I wasn't making it personal. But basically you were saying that there is no aspect of mental-toughness in winning, and that you can let people with you, and win games, when in reality, that is the farthest thing from the truth. I was saying that anyone that really plays basketball, knows that the soft guys always finish last.

[samikeyp]

I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

I agree totally. You can't be soft and survive in pro sports.

[ambchang]

The best way to prove one's toughness is to loss one's cool, act irrationally, and lose sight of the real goal. Immediate reaction without weighing consequences is the way to go!

[stretch]

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the le, who cares what people label them?

It's harder to win a le when no one has respect for you, and treats you like es too, the way that the Warriors did. IMO, success in Basketball has MUCH more to do with your mentality, than it does your skill and talent. Thats why Tim Duncan is easily the greatest PF of all time. He definitely is not as talented as guys like Dirk, or Garnett, but mentally, he is above and beyond any PF, and just about any player aside from Jordan in NBA history. Kobe is more gifted and talented than Jordan, but isn't even close to his level... why? Because of his mentality.

[mardigan]

I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

And I wasn't making it personal. But basically you were saying that there is no aspect of mental-toughness in winning, and that you can let people with you, and win games, when in reality, that is the farthest thing from the truth. I was saying that anyone that really plays basketball, knows that the soft guys always finish last.

Maybe in pick up ball, where ther are less rules, no fouls and that guy who always throws elbows when he rebounds, but in the NBA you have to be smart and let the refs handle like that. Harris stood up to Miller, I dont know what else Howard was trying to prove

[stretch]

The best way to prove one's toughness is to loss one's cool, act irrationally, and lose sight of the real goal. Immediate reaction without weighing consequences is the way to go!

No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

[ambchang]

Soft is an absolutely meaningless label that is arbitrarily posted on people. The Spurs were labelled soft before 99. Robinson carried the soft label with him despite being a league leader in blocks and rebounds (how many time do you see soft players leading the league in rebounds) and dunks, drives into lanes and gets hacked repeatedly, defended a man 100lbs heavier than him with a floating particle in his back.
And yet a "tough guy" like Shaq misses significant amount of time every year, got destroyed by Barkley in a fight, and attacked Brad Miller after Charles Oakley whacked him.
People simply react to the surface and label whether somebody is soft or tough (the guy growls after a dunk, must be a tough guy).

[stretch]

Maybe in pick up ball, where ther are less rules, no fouls and that guy who always throws elbows when he rebounds, but in the NBA you have to be smart and let the refs handle like that. Harris stood up to Miller, I dont know what else Howard was trying to prove

If you read my posts, again, you would see that I did not condone what Howard did. Getting upset over Miller's cheapshot and telling him to off and don't do it again is perfectly fine, and that is exactly what Howard should have limited it to. Tim Duncan would do the exact same thing if someone did that to Parker.

[stretch]

Soft is an absolutely meaningless label that is arbitrarily posted on people. The Spurs were labelled soft before 99. Robinson carried the soft label with him despite being a league leader in blocks and rebounds (how many time do you see soft players leading the league in rebounds) and dunks, drives into lanes and gets hacked repeatedly, defended a man 100lbs heavier than him with a floating particle in his back.
And yet a "tough guy" like Shaq misses significant amount of time every year, got destroyed by Barkley in a fight, and attacked Brad Miller after Charles Oakley whacked him.
People simply react to the surface and label whether somebody is soft or tough (the guy growls after a dunk, must be a tough guy).

You really don't know what the you are talking about, do you?

[mardigan]

If you read my posts, again, you would see that I did not condone what Howard did. Getting upset over Miller's cheapshot and telling him to off and don't do it again is perfectly fine, and that is exactly what Howard should have limited it to. Tim Duncan would do the exact same thing if someone did that to Parker.

And I dont know where you got the idea that I ever thought you agreed with what he did

[stretch]

And I dont know where you got the idea that I ever thought you agreed with what he did

Okay, then what was the point of that previous post? I said that I didn't agree with Howard's actions, and I said that mental-toughness means you can't let people know they can with you. Then you basically said "maybe in pick up ball, but the NBA is different, and Howard was out of line."

Okay... so I had already aknowledged that the NBA is different, and that is why he should have acted differently. So I really didn't get the point of that post, just to tell me something I had already stated a number of times.

[mavs>spurs2]

I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from this..


Brad Miller is a ing pussy

[ambchang]

No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

On the contrary, everything prior to Page 3 of this thread suggest otherwise. In fact, there is indication that not only were people saying that it was not a smart move by Howard, there were people condoning Howard's action:

Punking Brad Miller in order to stick up for a teammate is well worth sitting out one regular season game, or 2-3 at the worst.

Teams are trying to punk us. Golden State punked us repeatedly and our guys didn't fight back. Looks like they're not taking this lying down anymore. Good for them. So Howard gets suspended for one regular season game and worst-case scenario we lose it. Fine, whatever. We're winning 55+ games and getting a top four seed regardless. This team can't let teams punk them again collectively like the Warriors did. That's worth more than one regular season win.

Props to Howard for punking his ass...I would have done the same. all you haters...gotta stick up for eachother.

I never said anything about punching or hitting anyone. But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Because you can't let teams punk you, the way that Golden State punked us last year, or the Lakers used to do in the past. If team's know you are soft, they will take advantage of that.

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little es. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

[ambchang]

You really don't know what the you are talking about, do you?

Perhaps you can enlighten me with which ones of the incidents I stated was indeed false?
Your response is vague and provides nothing of value or any facts, or even opinions, to backup your lone statement.

[Shank]

Ooooh...it's like an e-duel.

[stretch]

On the contrary, everything prior to Page 3 of this thread suggest otherwise. In fact, there is indication that not only were people saying that it was not a smart move by Howard, there were people condoning Howard's action:

Findawg was the only one that said that he condoned it. Amarelooms doesn't count. He's not even a Mavs fan, and is a in moron. And I don't get why you used my quotes, considering not once did I ever say it was okay to react the way he did. Letting people know that they cant punk you can happen in more ways than just shoving or hitting someone.

Way to pick and choose other people's words for your arguement. Go back and read mine and Shanks posts, and you will see how the quotes you used did not back your argument whatsoever.

[ambchang]

Findawg was the only one that said that he condoned it. Amarelooms doesn't count. He's not even a Mavs fan, and is a in moron. And I don't get why you used my quotes, considering not once did I ever say it was okay to react the way he did. Letting people know that they cant punk you can happen in more ways than just shoving or hitting someone.

No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

So what exactly does "No one" means? If Findawg is the only one who condoned it, why is it "No one"? Why would Amarelooms not count even he is not a Mavs fan? Are non-Mavs fans sub-humans? Should we outsiders not be counted at all?

Finally:

But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.

You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?

[stretch]

Perhaps you can enlighten me with which ones of the incidents I stated was indeed false?
Your response is vague and provides nothing of value or any facts, or even opinions, to backup your lone statement.

Because we arent talking about being a great player that has tons of blocks, dunks, and rebounds as being tough. Being physically tough and mentally tough are two different things. People would be a lot more willing to with Robinson, than they would Shaq.

Growling after dunks does not make you tough. Duncan is a of a lot more tough-minded than Garnett. Anyone with a brain knows that, despite Garnett's intimidating personality and look. I don't think anyone that knows what they are talking about would say that someone who growls after a dunk means they are tough.

[Humble Billy Hayes]

You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?

How about "his intentions were good but he went about it completely wrong"? Happy now Spurfan?

[Findog]

You really don't know what the you are talking about, do you?

I'm actually with ambchang on this. Dirk has a rep as a soft choker, and this guy plays on sprained ankles all year long, he get his teeth knocked out by Karl Malone and get his ass back up, he never complains and he's soft because his back to the basket post game is mediocre or worse. "Soft" is almost always subjective.

I just feel like if you're going to take a cheap shot at somebody who is picking on one of your teammates far beneath his size, do it in a preseason game. I'd be more upset and concerned if Josh pulled this in the playoffs.

[stretch]

So what exactly does "No one" means? If Findawg is the only one who condoned it, why is it "No one"? Why would Amarelooms not count even he is not a Mavs fan? Are non-Mavs fans sub-humans? Should we outsiders not be counted at all?

Finally:

You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?

Okay, the use of "no one" was a poor choice of words, although you should have known what I meant by the very next statement when I said "pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard." But I'm not going to go any further into that, since I did misuse the word in the first place, and that you love to pick and choose what you quote, kind of like you did with your last quote here. There is more than one way to not let people with you. Howard chose to do it in a way that I don't condone. I said in a number of other posts, the way in which I feel he should have reacted. You need to cut that "pick and choose" out man. Thats ing re ed.

[stretch]

I'm actually with ambchang on this. Dirk has a rep as a soft choker, and this guy plays on sprained ankles all year long, he get his teeth knocked out by Karl Malone and get his ass back up, he never complains and he's soft because his back to the basket post game is mediocre or worse. "Soft" is almost always subjective.

I just feel like if you're going to take a cheap shot at somebody who is picking on one of your teammates far beneath his size, do it in a preseason game. I'd be more upset and concerned if Josh pulled this in the playoffs.

Like I said... this whole conversation was about MENTAL toughness... NOT PHYSICAL toughness. Those are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

You mean to tell me, that as a Mavericks fan, that you don't believe that Dirk can be a soft choker? You mean to tell me that when people give him that label, that they have no reason to give it to him whatsoever? Come on now... I'm a Mavs fan too, but I understand completely why people say that, and it is true so far. Personally, I think he will soon get over the hump, but for now, its fitting.

[Findog]

I think the environment it happened in would make me worry more. He loses his cool like that in a preseason game I'd worry a of a lot more about what happens in a playoff environment where everything will be more physical and the adrenaline and emotions naturally run a bit higher.

We'll see. Howard is not a dummy. If you're gonna get a satisfying shot in, this is the time to do it. Of course, we won't be seeing Sacramento in the playoffs. Nobody else will, for that matter, but that's another thread.