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  1. #101
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Any effect that anti-war statements have on the ground are negligible. If anything the fact that the current debate has gotten so anti-war while the situation on the ground is improving tends to point away from any real effect, i.e. if anti-war speeches are more intense than they have ever been, and that really had an effect on the ground, then one would expect the situation on the ground to worsen as such anti-war speeches got more common.

    The Dimms had no responsibility for running post-war Iraq, and no responsibility for deciding on overall strategy or commanders.

    Any minor PR gains from democrat misgivings to this war is FAR outweighed by administration incompetence in terms of assigning blame.

    (shrugs)

    I am all about quantifying things, and proof. You can prove that the Dimms words are used in propaganda, but you can't prove their effectiveness as a propaganda tool.

    I CAN make an extremely good case for how inept and incompetant the post war occupation has been.

    The Dimms had no responsibility for running post-war Iraq, and no responsibility for deciding on overall strategy or commanders.
    Responsibility lies with the Government as a whole.
    Although they were not responsible for day to day operations,
    they are responsible to be helpful to the administration
    and not attempt to "intentionally" hinder the war effort,
    don't you agree?

    Any minor PR gains from democrat misgivings to this war is FAR outweighed by administration incompetence in terms of assigning blame.
    I maintain that it was far more than "Minor PR grains".
    I would say that the Democratic party was to the point
    of offering aid and comfort to the enemy. That they,
    the Democrats were rooting for the AQ to win and
    embarrass the Bush administration.

    I also maintain that it did give the impression to the
    enemy that they had the Democrats on their side and
    that the Democrats would assist them in seeing the
    Bush administration fail in their efforts to defeat the
    AQ.

    I take no comfort in saying the above. Because in
    saying it I see our country is a very dangerous
    situation. Where politics becomes more important
    than the safety and security of our nation.
    I can already read some of the rebuffs on this statement.
    All them negative about Bush and his administration.
    Which I have no time for. We are in a war and the
    Congress did support the President in taking us into
    this war. They were not tricked and if they were, then
    one them has no business being President, because
    she can be hoodwinked. Congress gets briefings from
    our intelligence people just like the President and
    nothing is held back, regardless of what people say.

  2. #102
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    Never feel guilty for protesting an unecessary war..
    False....

    Feel incredibly stupid for protesting this war....because we can't cut and run.



    your just another dead ender/ war ... you and your ilk will be demonized in the run up to the election.. and rightfully so..

    Oh shut the up...you're just another propaganda , who is a bigot at heart, and I think my guilt projection statement was dead on which is why you got defensive...


    On top of that...you are easily one of the three stupidest posters on this forum.

    You're a walking talking CNN Newsblurb....and a stupid one at that.




    your defense of the indenfensable sounds like a big case of guilt projection...
    Indefensable?

    Iraq was in violation of a cease fire agreement...


    And you continue to parrot those that are too stupid to understand what that means.




    if your wrong you supported the needless deaths of 4,000 dead GIs..
    #1. That is an incredibly small total for an invasion and overthrow of an entrenched military dictator.

    #2. The only thing that renders their deaths meaningless...will be pulling out of Iraq. Something you crave at the hearts of your stupid and bigoted soul...




    of course if had any type of conscience that might bother but hey as long as the gOP keeps winning elections dead GIs are collateral damage..very patriotic of you.. ok you now lecture those of us who never served while in the backround the leading GOP hopefuls haven't either..

    Does not matter you idiot....
    The most important thing is that a ty mid-east leader is gone, that representative government can be installed in a mid-east country...

    I know you don't care about that....because you're too ing stupid realize how important it is....but that doesn't make it any less important.


    And you contribute absolutely nothing to that goal...

  3. #103
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    FWIW...

    I don't feel a shred of guilt over supporting this war...

    You know why?

    Because I wasn't in favor of the invasion in the first place....


    And even I was? It's still a valuable front in the longterm battle against the causes of terrorism.

    So while I wasn't in favor of the initial invasion...


    I always understood that:

    A. Saddam needed to go.

    B. We had legal recourse to go into Iraq...WMD or not. Al-Qaeda or not. Oil or not.

    You idiots...we had legal recourse to go into Iraq. WMD or not.....Al Qaeda or not. Oil or not.

    We had legal recourse to go into Iraq. WMD or not. Al Qaeda or not. Oil or not.


    C. That Iraq was always part of much bigger plan...

    A plant for strategic position against Iran and Syria...for war, for political pressure against every ty leader in the mid-east, for nuclear pressure....a plan to increase our presence in the middle east...


    D. Protesting it wasn't going to do any good. It was going to more harm than good.




    You guys are focused on Oil and WMD too much...and too ignorant of the fact that the middle east is a hole where leaders stay in power through brute force, and little else, and that is the true cause of terrorism..and they are a threat to us.


    There was nothing illegal about this war...

    That's what you idiots don't get.






    So all of it doesn't matter to me, about WMD, about whether or not Al-Qaeda was in Iraq...all that matters, is that becomes a better situation.

    And the only way that doesn't happen...is if we pull out.


    That's the only way...and if you support an immediate pull out, you support every ty inhumane leader in the Middle East....and the ultimate cause of terrorism....not to mention those that are shooting our soldiers...


    Our volunteer soldiers...you know, that are still joining...while you protest because hey...it was cool in the sixties...idiots.


    And instead of coming up with a better candidate and way to win this war...

    You idiots have done nothing but attack Bush...when it does absolutely no good.
    Last edited by whottt; 10-19-2007 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #104
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The fact that we had no orders for armored humvees, nor any real program for ensuring all the troops had enough body armor. Both of those were ins uted only AFTER the we had been there for almost a year with no sign of the unexpected insurgency going away. I say unexpected on the part of the administration. Those of us with any topical knowledge knew otherwise.

    Negligent reconstruction planning. I use this word very deliberately. I think this administration is criminally negligent in the planning of this occupation. I blame this incompetence for 80%+ of all the dead service members and it angers me beyond words.

    Cases in point:
    #1 Iraqi health care.
    Original guy was an actual doctor with experience in running health care in war zones like Somalia and Kosovo.
    He was replaced with (surprise!) a political hack who, instead of trying to increase access to health care, spent more time on trying out ideas on drug purchase plans than actually delivering health care. The political hack used Iraq as an experiment on how to set up a system of drug purchase and delivery and completely failed in delivering things like basic sanitation and simple care for wounded.

    Second case:
    Industrial privitization.
    To meet ideological ends, the neocons decided to privatize all the factories in Iraq.

    To do this they gave the job to three Americans with some business experience. After the first few months of deteriorating conditions in terms of things breaking and not getting fixed, and slowing productivity, these three guys decided that they needed some help, and brought in the main German guys responsible for assimilating the East German factories into the private enterprise system.

    The Germans came in and met with the Americans, and started telling them what needed to happen. The conversation went something like this:

    Germans: "It is very good to meet you, but you should have brought your staff with you. Regardless, let's get started, you need to get your staff to do X, Y, and Z, and then..."


    Americans: "But we don't have any staff, it is just us three..."

    Germans (flabbergasted): "We thought you were the leaders of the program, not the whole program. It took 6,000 administrators, engineers, technicians, accountants and others to get all the east german factories up to speed."

    Americans: "Sorry, it is just us"

    Germans: "You have wasted our time. The job you have been given is impossible given the resources given. We can't do anything to help you, sorry"

    End result:

    The factories eventually deteriorated so far because of lack of spare parts and raw materials that Iraqis stopped showing up, futher adding to the unemployment fueling the insurgency.

    The list goes on, just browse through the many books chronicling this "fiasco".

    This administration tried for cheap and easy political points, and got way more than it bargained for. I think the rabid Bush supporters will say this is simply more "far left" cynicism, but it is my best hypothesis, based on this administration's proven behavior and available evidence.



    If you aren't appalled, you haven't been paying attention.

  5. #105
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    What are you Eintsteins going to do in 08?

    Congratulate yourselves when Bush doesn't get re-elected?

    He's not going to be impeached or prosecuted.

    He wasn't going to go down as a popular President anyway, none of the guys to get in without winning the popular vote are...he's going to be more popular than he was, because you idiots got him re-elected...he's also going to be more remembered because of that....

    And in 20 years intellectuals will debate the merits of his decision to invade Iraq...and those seeking to separate themselves from the common knowledge will claim it was the key moment...


    Me? I'll be celebrating the fact that I finally got a guy who will enact the foreign policy I wanted in the first place...

    A guy who is simply going to say...

    If a nuclear bomb of any kind is set off in the United States...I am going to nuke Mecca...or Iran.


    And when he says it? He'll be believed.

    And then he's going to get Usama..




    That's what I always wanted...

    Because it'll work...just like similar threats work for every leader in the ME.




    Meanwhile...you idiots have fun at the party celebrating Bush's failure to be elected for a third term...

    God knows, you deserve to celebrate that...

  6. #106
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    The fact that we had no orders for armored humvees, nor any real program for ensuring all the troops had enough body armor. Both of those were ins uted only AFTER the we had been there for almost a year with no sign of the unexpected insurgency going away. I say unexpected on the part of the administration. Those of us with any topical knowledge knew otherwise.

    Negligent reconstruction planning. I use this word very deliberately. I think this administration is criminally negligent in the planning of this occupation. I blame this incompetence for 80%+ of all the dead service members and it angers me beyond words.

    Cases in point:
    #1 Iraqi health care.
    Original guy was an actual doctor with experience in running health care in war zones like Somalia and Kosovo.
    He was replaced with (surprise!) a political hack who, instead of trying to increase access to health care, spent more time on trying out ideas on drug purchase plans than actually delivering health care. The political hack used Iraq as an experiment on how to set up a system of drug purchase and delivery and completely failed in delivering things like basic sanitation and simple care for wounded.

    Second case:
    Industrial privitization.
    To meet ideological ends, the neocons decided to privatize all the factories in Iraq.

    To do this they gave the job to three Americans with some business experience. After the first few months of deteriorating conditions in terms of things breaking and not getting fixed, and slowing productivity, these three guys decided that they needed some help, and brought in the main German guys responsible for assimilating the East German factories into the private enterprise system.

    The Germans came in and met with the Americans, and started telling them what needed to happen. The conversation went something like this:

    Germans: "It is very good to meet you, but you should have brought your staff with you. Regardless, let's get started, you need to get your staff to do X, Y, and Z, and then..."


    Americans: "But we don't have any staff, it is just us three..."

    Germans (flabbergasted): "We thought you were the leaders of the program, not the whole program. It took 6,000 administrators, engineers, technicians, accountants and others to get all the east german factories up to speed."

    Americans: "Sorry, it is just us"

    Germans: "You have wasted our time. The job you have been given is impossible given the resources given. We can't do anything to help you, sorry"

    End result:

    The factories eventually deteriorated so far because of lack of spare parts and raw materials that Iraqis stopped showing up, futher adding to the unemployment fueling the insurgency.

    The list goes on, just browse through the many books chronicling this "fiasco".

    This administration tried for cheap and easy political points, and got way more than it bargained for. I think the rabid Bush supporters will say this is simply more "far left" cynicism, but it is my best hypothesis, based on this administration's proven behavior and available evidence.



    If you aren't appalled, you haven't been paying attention.

    Sadly...you guys failed to offer a better alternative.


    And you continue to do so.


    Even more sadly...the decision to sell out America, and success in the ME, by politicizing this war for political gain...failed. And it's going to fail again...

  7. #107
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Sadly...you guys failed to offer a better alternative.

    And you continue to do so.

    Even more sadly...the decision to sell out America, and success in the ME, by politicizing this war for political gain...failed. And it's going to fail again...
    (shrugs)

    This war was started for political gain and cheap points. Can you really blame the Dems for doing the same thing that Bush did when he started the war?

  8. #108
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    (shrugs)

    This war was started for political gain and cheap points. Can you really blame the Dems for doing the same thing that Bush did when he started the war?
    RG, you are so very, very wrong. Really you are.

  9. #109
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The Iraq war was started by a mix of neocon fantasy, cowboy bravado and impotent rage. I won't forget that, nor should it be forgotten.

  10. #110
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    The Iraq war was started by a mix of neocon fantasy, cowboy bravado and impotent rage. I won't forget that, nor should it be forgotten.
    And opposed by those that have no idea of what we are
    fighting or the enemies we face. Or just plain hate Bush.

  11. #111
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    And opposed by those that have no idea of what we are
    fighting or the enemies we face.
    Nah, we knew exactly who the real enemies threatening the US were. Bush distracted us from them by invading Iraq.
    Or just plain hate Bush.
    I hate Bush because he has been completely incompetent in the execution of an unnecessary war.

  12. #112
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Nah, we knew exactly who the real enemies threatening the US were. Bush distracted us from them by invading Iraq.I hate Bush because he has been completely incompetent in the execution of an unnecessary war.
    An example of what I said. Hate Bush.

  13. #113
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    The Iraq war was started by a mix of neocon fantasy, cowboy bravado and impotent rage. I won't forget that, nor should it be forgotten.

    but if it ends well, it was all worth it.

  14. #114
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Iraq Will Never Attack Us Again!!! Thanks To People Like Ray, Yoni And Bush..!

  15. #115
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Iraq Will Never Attack Us Again!!! Thanks To People Like Ray, Yoni And Bush..!
    I don't think you every heard any of us say they did
    attack us. Live in ignorance. For goodness sake
    don't bother to really find out the facts.

  16. #116
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Iraq Will Never Attack Us Again!!! Thanks To People Like Ray, Yoni And Bush..!
    Amen to that!

    Iraq also won't be providing material support to terrorists any longer.

  17. #117
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I don't think you every heard any of us say they did
    attack us. Live in ignorance. For goodness sake
    don't bother to really find out the facts.
    Sure they did. They shot at U. S. Military assets hundreds of times between the end of the first Gulf War and the March 2003 invasion.

  18. #118
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Sure they did. They shot at U. S. Military assets hundreds of times between the end of the first Gulf War and the March 2003 invasion.
    Thanks for reminding us that Iraq was under our military thumb for 12 years.

  19. #119
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Thanks for reminding us that Iraq was under our military thumb for 12 years.
    At the behest of the U.N. Your favorite organization.

    Actually yoni, I hadn't thought of that. But you are
    correct. I think you could also consider his aid to the
    terrorist, you know the 25 grand he gave to families who
    blew themselves up. And some still do not want to
    acknowledge the the training camps set up in Iraq.
    And I am still trying to figure out why he was working
    on dispersal methods of WMD when he didn't have
    any. Maybe Chump could help us out there...

  20. #120
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    At the behest of the U.N.
    Untrue.

    Actually yoni, I hadn't thought of that. But you are
    correct. I think you could also consider his aid to the
    terrorist, you know the 25 grand he gave to families who
    blew themselves up. And some still do not want to
    acknowledge the the training camps set up in Iraq.
    And I am still trying to figure out why he was working
    on dispersal methods of WMD when he didn't have
    any. Maybe Chump could help us out there...
    Maybe you could help us out with the WMD stockpiles.

  21. #121
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    RG, you are so very, very wrong. Really you are.
    It wasn't started because of WMD's despite the administration spin to the contrary. The intel guys were told to go and find the evidence to support that thesis, and the shaky stuff they found was held up in front of the world as proof.

    Cheney, in defending the decision not to go in after gulf war 1 said that Iraq would be a quagmire, and a violent bloodbath that could threaten regional stability if we toppled Saddam.

    Then, 10 years later he says "we will be greeted as liberators".

    This administration knew what was going to happen and suckered you into believing them.

    You can't tell me that you think the post-invasion period was run competantly by people who didn't even have passports, can you?

  22. #122
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I would not want to admit I was wrong, either, so I understand you have to go through the motions of defending this ass-hat.

    That's ok, I still love ya. At least you are supporting the right basketball team.

  23. #123
    Believe. Walter Craparita's Avatar
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    Gore.

    Kerry.


    I can't sleep at night

  24. #124
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Gore.

    Kerry.


    I can't sleep at night

    1 less unecessary war. I am sure there are thousands of families who don't sleep well anymore because of it. I guess you think that's funny also...

  25. #125
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Thanks for reminding us that Iraq was under our military thumb for 12 years.
    Only North and South of the no-fly zones. Saddam Hussein had the entire middle section of Iraq, including a porous border with Syria and Salman Pak terrorist training facility to play with.

    Thanks to Congressman Church and Bill Clinton's emasculation of the Intelligence mechanism, we had few resources in those areas where our military assets were not allowed.

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