Do people honestly think that Manu is the MVP of this team?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Your excessive cursing lets me know right off the bat who is right and who is wrong here.

You say that the Spurs would not make the playoffs without Duncan, but they would still make it without Tony, and Manu. That is a two way street, the Spurs are 5 games from the 9th seed AT FULL STRENGTH. Meaning no team could make the playoffs this year with key components out for the season.

You about me not watching enough Spur games and you are their number one fan blah blah blah..you have no idea how many games I watch or don't watch and I DO happen to know alot about all things basketball. I'm not alone in my assertion that Manu is this years MVP for the Spurs regular season. The man has been absolutely amazing and nothing short of it. His stats are up in every major category, but i'm not basing my opinion off stats. Watch the games, and you will see that Manu is the teams best playmaker for the 2007-2008 REGULAR SEASON, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS, that is what this discussion is about. Tim is a great player, but if you cannot handle an honest basketball discussion without getting your feelings hurt then what are you doing on a sports messageboard? You know that saying..Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

I think he took exception to the fact you basically boiled down his opinion down to him hating on Manu, which IMO was not the case. I can see where he was coming from. Its hard to knock someone for honestly believing Tim is the Spurs most valuable player. It has nothing to do with hate. If anything its become custom

I for one, am just glad to see Manu making a case for himself, even if the result is quite deservingly Duncan again.

[td4mvp21]

Your excessive cursing lets me know right off the bat who is right and who is wrong here.

It shoudl have let you known that your ignorance pissed me off, but I woudn't have expected you to understand that

.

Look I know that Ginobili has been so important to the Spurs this season. So has Parker! So has Duncan! Even if we are still talking about this season, Duncan is still our MVP! He is our most valuable player. It's hard to replace any one of our Big Three, but the most irreplaceable, valuable is Duncan. We can find other very talented, scoring guards in the league (a handful, nonetheless), but we can't find another dominant powerforward who is perhaps one of the top 10 players of all time. We just can't. That isn't to hate on Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili like you said-it's stating what I feel is truth. I love Ginobili and Parker but they aren't htis team's most valuable player. This team starts and ends with Duncan and that's that. Ginobili should deserve MVP consideration this season, so should Parker! But Duncan should be ahead of both of them.

[td4mvp21]

I think he took exception to the fact you basically boiled down his opinion down to him hating on Manu, which IMO was not the case. I can see where he was coming from. Its hard to knock someone for honestly believing Tim is the Spurs most valuable player. It has nothing to do with hate. If anything it become custom

That's what made me mad. People can think Ginobili is MVP, because he deserves the consideration. But don't tell me I'm hating on him for saying he's not MVP.

[ShoogarBear]

ok, point taken.

Still, you really don't think Manu has been as valuable to the Spurs success this season as Tim has? or more importantly how big do you see the gap between Tim's contributions and Manu's, being?

Manu has been excellent. There's little more that you can ask for than what he's done this season. But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him (not from you Manumanic, but others).

Manu is able to do what he does in large part because he has Tim Duncan (and to a lesser extent Parker) carrying the burden until he can pick his spots. I agree with whoever said that calling Manu the MVP this year is akin to calling Tony the MVP of the 2007 Finals. You can call him that, and give him props for his accomplishments, but don't for a minute forget who the real MVP is.

[TwoHandJam]

Of course, if you're going to do all that, then you can say that Bowen is just as irreplacable.

Who wouldn't argue that Bowen makes a case for best perimeter defender in the league? He's almost irreplaceable in what he brings to our team although I feel he could be replaced with less churn on the roster than moving someone like Manu might bring.

[ShoogarBear]

Without Tim Duncan this season, but with both Manu and Parker still, the Spurs are 2-1, beating both Dallas and Utah, and losing to Golden State at Golden State by 8 points.

Please don't tell me you really think you have made a point there.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manu has been excellent. There's little more that you can ask for than what he's done this season. But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him.

Manu is able to do what he does in large part because he has Tim Duncan (and to a lesser extent Parker) carrying the burden until he can pick his spots. I agree with whoever said that calling Manu the MVP this year is akin to calling Tony the MVP of the 2007 Finals. You can call him that, and give him props for his accomplishments, but don't for a minute forget who the real MVP is.

Fair enough. I do believe we were on the same page from the beginning. I still don't think Manu is as replaceable as you make him out to be though.

[mavs>spurs2]

That's what made me mad. People can think Ginobili is MVP, because he deserves the consideration. But don't tell me I'm hating on him for saying he's not MVP.

All one can do is watch the games. By doing so it appears that Ginobili is usually the best player on the court for the Spurs, but like you said that may just be part of the plan to keep Tim rested for the playoffs. As far as regular season goes, Ginobili is MVP, and for all I know Duncan could be the finals MVP if the Spurs once again win it all. I was in no way trying to argue who has been the MVP for the past decade, only one measly regular season.

[Jimcs50]

You put TD on any team in top 10 this year, and they would win the championship this year without a sweat. Manu would impact a lot of teams, but not to that extent.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't agree for the '05 le.
Manu was incredible, Horry won game 5 after Duncan put up 26 and 19 and wore out. (Only Duncan could have those numbers and have it be considered a bad game. )

It was Duncan who took the team on his back in game 7. It was Duncan who drew the double teams and got the passes to Manu and Bowen. Pop said after that game that Duncan was just not going to let them lose. There's a clip of a time out where Duncan tells them to be ready for his passes. From the 6 minute mark in the third to the buzzer, game 7 was Duncan.

For '07, Duncan got us through the Playoffs and Parker took it in the Finals. We wouldn't have gotten to the Finals if not for Duncan.

It's a team sport, it takes all of them. But Duncan is the core.

It was a bad game by Duncan because he went 1 of 7 from the FT line in the 4th Q with the game on the line and missed a point blank tip in from 2 feet to win the game.

Duncan also shot only 40% from the field from the entire series. Rasheed gave him a lot of trouble defensively. He did not play well that series and Manu was easily the MVP of that particular series.

It was the lowest FG% by any Finals MVP in the history of the NBA...

[JamStone]

Please don't tell me you really think you have made a point there.

As it pertains to your hyperbolic comment that the Spurs couldn't even make it to the NIT without Duncan, absolutely.

If the Spurs had to play without Duncan, of course they wouldn't be nearly as good. I have no doubt that Pop and the team would adjust, and they'd be contending for a playoff spot.

[roycrikside]

Anyone who thinks the Spurs are a playoff team without either Manu or Tim is insane. The West is just too good. We'd be below the Kings in the standings without either one.
I'm not even sure we could sneak in as the 8th seed without Tony, and he's having an off year compared to the last two.

The facts are these... Manu is having a career year, Duncan's had better years and Tony's been injured and off a lot, so combining those three factors, one can make a case for Manu being the team's MVP. He's probably been their most consistent player, especially in games that are against good teams. He's the guy that has turned a lot of losses into wins, simple as that. Who's been a more clutch 4th quarter player in the NBA this year?

Anyway, the reason we are having the Tim/Manu debate and both sides can make points is that I honestly believe one can argue that this season they have been the 5th and 6th best players in the league, in however order you care to put them. Having two guys in the top ten is the ONLY reason our record is what it is and that we have a prayer or repeating, because players 4-12 this squad is significantly worse than a lot of other contenders.

[roycrikside]

I think with the right personnel Manu could carry an NBA team all the way. He has shown an ability to do so without Tim, but only in a small sample. Still, it would have to be the perfect GM and the perfect coach who could put such a roster together though.

Obviously Tim can do so as well, he's proven that in '99 and '03, back when Manu's role was much smaller.

I will say this much though. Take Manu off the Spurs. Now replace his 9M salary and his role with other players. It'd be very difficult to still put together a playoff team with that limitation.

But take Tim off the Spurs and you have, what, a 20M salary to play with? I think you can get some quality bigs for that kind of change.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

without Duncan, Manu can't do what he does



this is even more the case with Parker

[DAF86]

without Duncan, Manu can't do what he does



this is even more the case with Parker

manu has done what he's doing through all his life all around the world at all levels

[mavs>spurs2]

One thing i'm noticing throughout this thread, the only people unwilling to believe that Manu could possibly be the MVP just this one season are those with the following in their usernames:

duncan
21
td
tim

[2centsworth]

without Manu, Tony and Bruce the Spurs were getting rolled in the playoffs. With Tony, Manu and Bruce the Spurs have won 3 out of 5 championships. Those guys are not easily replaceable and anyone who suggest they are is an idiot.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

One thing i'm noticing throughout this thread, the only people unwilling to believe that Manu could possibly be the MVP just this one season are those with the following in their usernames:

duncan
21
td
tim

[hitmanyr2k]

Ginobili is the MVP of the team this year. It's not even about stats. It's about his intensity and will to win. He's been bailing the Spurs in the 4th qtr all year. He gives them toughness when they don't seem to have any. Too many times I've seen Duncan puss out this year on both ends and just act like he's not even interested in games. Call it boredom. Call it fatigue or whatever but I've compared him to an over-the-hill Shaq many times this season because he's deserved it. Yeah, Duncan is the anchor and backbone blah blah blah but at the same time if he's the MVP of this team he should be BRINGING IT like he's the MVP of this team. The fact that there is even talk of Ginobili being the best of the Spurs right now solidifies that Duncan hasn't been playing to his capability. If Duncan played like he had some pride instead of having his head up his ass half the time this thread wouldn't exist right now and that's a fact.

[Cherry]

To me there's no doubt that only this season Manu has been the leader of the team, but overall Tim is soul of the team. Manu has hit game winners, score 40+, taken over games, what else does he has to do to be the MVP of the team?

...i dont know... marketing?

[Cherry]

Question to all: Define MVP in general. What a MVP is?

[td4mvp21]

define MVP

I already did. It's most valuable player. I gave my reasonings and I'm not discussing it anymore because I get called biased and a hater.

[Warlord23]

I can't believe this is even a point of discussion.

1. Ths Spurs' system is based on what Duncan brings to the table. The FO has always tried to fit the right pieces around him. You cannot build a system this successful based on a perimeter player at both ends of the floor.

2. Who can replace Duncan on the Spurs? KG? Doesn't play the low post, isn't a shot blocking/altering threat. Shaq? Amare? Dwight? Dirk? Gasol? No, no, no. Every playoff run we ride on Duncan to get out of the West. It is Duncan who shoulders the load against Dallas, Phoenix, Utah, Denver, etc. The only 2 series where Duncan could've done better in all his playoff runs were: Cleveland and Detroit. But without Duncan they wouldn't have reached that far.

3. Is Manu replaceable? Difficult, but possible. I'd gladly take Pierce or James or Kobe to play Manu's role. Remember that Duncan won with SJax as his # 2, that he got to the WCF with Derek Anderson as his # 2.

4. Defense. Without Manu, the Spurs' offense will surely suffer. But the D will not be affected. You take Timmy out, and our D goes for a toss. The same can be said about our rebounding.

Without Timmy, Pop would be running an Adelman-like Princeton offense. The fact that he calls Timmy his "QB" says it all. Timmy is a once-in-a-generation player. He's the best overall player in the post-Jordan era. It is because of him that the Spurs are the most successful pro franchise in the post-Jordan era.

Just because he isn't putting in 100% during the regular season, you can't diminish his importance to the team. Last year it was TP v.s Tim, this year it is Manu vs Tim. When the playoffs are underway, this question will again be answered. The Spurs' playoff MVP is and has always been Tim Duncan. He might have a bad series, he might have a rough stretch during the regular season. But he is the winningest player of this era. And his performance, more than anyone else, will determine how far the Spurs go. That is the definition of MVP.

[Warlord23]

without Manu, Tony and Bruce the Spurs were getting rolled in the playoffs. With Tony, Manu and Bruce the Spurs have won 3 out of 5 championships. Those guys are not easily replaceable and anyone who suggest they are is an idiot.

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.

[td4mvp21]

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.

Eh, I think Parker was number 2. He was wildly inconsistent but he had some nice games in the playoffs, as did Sjax. Sjax wasn't exactly Mr. Consistent either. But even so, none of those players were even close to who they are today.