Post players (ie: players that will post other players in the low post and have actual post moves), listed in no particular order:
- Tim Duncan
- Shaq
- Kevin Garnett
- Elton Brand
- Chris Bosh
- Carlos Boozer
- Pau Gasol
- Al Jefferson
- Rasheed Wallace
And I'm probably missing a guy or two.
Dirk receives in the low post, normally on the right side. Then he either:
a) shoots a fadeaway above the defender
b) drives to the basket looking for contact for an and1
This is no knock on Dirk. He's successful with that type of play.
As Findog noted many times, he's a SG with the body of PF.
But if you noticed the last 8 championships or so, the champion has always played an inside-out game. With an actual PF or C playing the post, and dishing out when the defense collapses.
Kevin Garnett IS NOT A POST PLAYER.
Watch the mother er play. The vast majority of his shots are turnaround 10 foot jumpers. His other points are garbage points, such as putback dunks. But he does NOT have a great post up game at all. Even Minny and Boston fans will tell you that you can not just rely on him to post someone up and consistently score with it. It usually ends up being a 10-15 foot turnaround.
Last edited by stretch; 04-07-2008 at 03:45 PM.
Dirk usually gets the ball in the high post, not the low post.
Third in points per, fifth in attempts. Wayyyyyyy down the list in actual field goal percentage in those attempts. Isn't it about actually hitting those clutch shots as opposed to volume shooting?
It was a counter-point to show that it's not just about making game-winning shots to be clutch. That's why I said if you just look at clutch shooting, you could argue Boozer is better. I don't actually believe that. Just like I don't believe just because a particular player hits a couple game winning shots, it doesn't automatically mean he's "clutch."
Actually Webber did not outplay Dirk AT ALL in the 2004 series. Of course, you wouldn't know this, because you didn't actually take the time to research this before posting. You likely didn't watch the series either.
They were pretty much dead even in the 2002 series in terms of production. Like the other poster said... the difference in each of those series had nothing to do with Dirk and Webber. It was the way that Nash was getting completely ing owned by Bibby.
You really need to research your before posting.
Sorry JamStone, but major up here. If you remember correctly, 04 was the season that Webber came back too early, and completely messed up the Kings and especially the MVP year that Peja was having. He was marginal at best during the 04 series. Dirk had a great series, yet Nash was drilled over and over again by Bibby. Same case in 02, and Dirk and Webber basically canceled each other out that year. Actually I think Keon Clark was the one that made the key plays in that series in games 3 and 4. And even before Webber got injured at the end of game 2 in 03, Dirk had spent the whole game abusing him every possible way.
When they run the pick & roll at the top of the key, yes, he gets it at the high post (You guys burned us with that play in 2006). I was pointing out the other play, when Dirk starts at the baseline and moves to the low post. Point Guard passes to shooting guard, then pass to Dirk in the low post. It's the closest I can think Dirk attempting to post up a player...
Dirk doesn't only hit game winners. He hits all kinds of big shots for his team. Just recently he has had a number of games doing that, such as yesterday in Phoenix. No game winners, but a bunch of HUGE timely shots. He did it in pretty much all 3 games we lost to LA, hitting HUGE shots, even sending one game to OT with a guy right in his grill.
Dirk has consistently been a big time clutch player for the Mavericks. You don't watch the Mavericks nearly as much as I do, so I don't see how you can act as if you know just as much, or more about my team and the players I watch almost every single game of.
Based on the arguments of Mavs fans in this thread, Baron Davis >>> Dirk, since we all know what happened last year.
Also, ranking Dirk = to Duncan is absolutely ludicrous. You're saying Dirk is equal to the best PF in NBA history.
Earth to Mavs fan, you're approaching the Bill Walton level of homerism.
Ok, but the thread was about PFs and not low post players. Many of the elite PFs in the league are face the basket players. As Stretch said, KG is well into that group. Tell me when have you ever seen KG dominate someone in the post. It would be the first time I see it.
No, since Baron had one great series, while Dirk has one great CAREER. Plus how fair is it to compare two players that are completely different positions.
Also, Duncan is the best PF in the history of the game. No argument whatsoever here. But right now, Dirk is not that far behind as a player. Just last year, before the GS series, people were saying that Dirk had become the most complete offensive player in the game, or 2nd behind Kobe. Sorry, but one bad series which was not his fault, will not cancel that. I really think that Dirk has a great chance to be top 5 all time at the PF position, especially if he wins a ring which he still has time to. He already was considered 8-9 two or three seasons ago in a major poll on ESPN by all their writers. That is before he blossomed as the player he is now. Therefore saying that Dirk is just behind Duncan as a PF right now in the league is not that far fetched.
Don't care what anyone says... when it is all said and done, Dirk will go down as a top 5 PF of all time, and ahead of KG.
you didn't bother to read the thread
Please. Everyone jumped on the Dirk bandwagon when the Mavs won 67 last year, and were just as quick to jump from it with the historical loss to the GSW.
The true great players play both sides of the floor. Dirk is a great offensive player, but defensively leaves a lot to be desired, *especially* for a 7 footer. I mean, even if you don't like Garnett's offensive game, the guy can and will alter shots defensively. Now, if you're comparing Dirk's D to Amare's D, then by all means, Dirk is the vastly superior defender (Amare can't guard anybody).
Let's also not forget that Don Nelson was relying on two rookies to play heavy minutes that series.
Not with the current way the media treats them. Plus if KG ever has a chance to greatly enhance his legacy it's now, in this incredibly weak East while Dallas has to play in the ever better West.
I would actually take KG over Dirk.
While that might annoy some Mav fans, I just think KG is the better overall player when all is said and done.
I think his 1 on 1 defense may be somewhat overrated, but when it comes to team defense he can solidify the front line. Boston's improvement on defense didn't happen by accident, but I also don't think it means that KG is Ben Wallace on steroids.
I will say that the assumption of Dirk being a "choker" is beyond ridiculous. I think KG sucks way more in the clutch than Dirk does. The only player in the entire league who I worry about more with the ball in his hands and less than 30 seconds left in the game is Kobe Bryant. I think Dirk's issues in crunch time have a lot more to do with him not making very smart decisions or being somewhat tedious with the ball. I think the Celtics game where Dirk went AWAY from Garnett on the drive to the hoop is a good example.
While I would take KG over Dirk when picking a team from scratch, (it really comes down to KG affecting both sides of the ball, whereas Dirk heavily affects one side of the ball) I do think when both of their respective careers are over, should KG still be ringless, it wouldn't surprise me to see Dirk leapfrog him in the PF discussions.
Dirk was 3 in the MVP voting in 05 and 06, as well as everyone absolutely drooling over him in the 06 playoffs, including Mav sceptic Bill Simmons. BS actually said during the playoffs that he had become the most complete forward since Bird. This is big stuff from a Celtic die hard. I'd say his bandwagon was getting full way before 07. And the guys who were the first to like him during those years, like Stein or Hollinger, are still big supporters of him.
Malone and Barkley, largely considered the 2nd and 3rd best PFs of all times were pretty mediocre defenders too. Dirk isn't much behind them, and if he ever wins a ring he has every right to claim to have a better career than those guys.
Also, this myth that great players are both on both sides has to stop. Magic was mediocre as well as Bird, and I already said so about Barkley and Malone. Not everyone is Jordan, Hakeem or Duncan.
I can't argue Dirk is better than KG because I was campaigning for a KG-Dirk trade. I love KG's game and I think his intensity could have really helped around here.
But if we're talking about which guy is more clutch, Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG. It's not even close.
Amare is like David west in a sense, they are good player, but are a product of playing with a great PG.....
If you take away Nash or CP3, both Amare and West would have a significant drop off in stats.
Dirk on the other hand would still get his, as would KG.......they can create their own.....
DD
I still disagree, I think the amount of pressure Dirk puts on a defense is beyond anything KG can achieve, and that is what separates the really great players. Plus by any way of measuring statistical effectivness (such as PER, Wages of Wins etc), which has been KG's stronghold during the years, Dirk has been either just behind and actually passed him in the recent years.
I actually did watch all three of those series, and that's why I brought it up. I have followed Chris Webber's career pretty closely, and followed the Kings when he was with Sacramento. I didn't look up the stats because it's my recollection that Webber outplayed Nowitzki. And, remember, scoring more points than another player doesn't automatically mean that player outplayed the other. Webber pretty much scored when he had to but the offense also ran through him and he racked up plenty of assists. Back then, Nowitzki wasn't a play maker in the sense of creating shots for teammates. Webber was. Webber scored, got assists, and rebounded. Dirk scored. I remember pretty well Webber scoring at will in those series, plus creating a lot of shot opportunities for teammates. Now, I also know Webber wasn't good at defense, as neither was Dirk. So, neither had a huge impact defensively. I didn't need to go look up the numbers before posting what I did because I watched those series.
Your recollection of Dirk's rebounding numbers is wrong.
Without Nash, Stoudemire's FG% would drop, but he'd still average about the same amount of points with higher minutes. I read a stat a few weeks ago that Stoudemire was recording one of the highest PPP-Points Per Possession in NBA history. I don't know if this is true, or how to tally this stat, but it's interesting nonetheless.
My thoughts about Amare Stoudemire are well-known, so I'm going to stay out of this discussion. Besides, I have work in a few minutes.
Who cares about MVP voting? That's the most stupid stat in the league. I mean, Kobe haven't even won an MVP yet? Duncan only has two, even though he won 4 championships? When awards get picked by the media all that it tells me is how much a player is being overhyped.
You should listen to Barkey one of this days. When he says 'Defense wins championships' he really means it. He had to retire ringless for no other reason.
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