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  1. #101
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    No one died when Clinton lied.
    Of which we are aware...

  2. #102
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Ok then Dan, what, when, how did Bush "mislead" anyone?
    Just a few Bush Lies..

    Some critics say Bush's zeal for running Iraq and transforming it into a democracy sounds just like the nation-building efforts he campaigned against. On Oct. 11, 2000, then-Texas Gov. Bush said: "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not." But yesterday White House press secretary Ari Fleischer proved the critics wrong once again. "During the campaign, the president did not express, as you put it, disdain for nation-building," he said. So there you have it." --Washington Post

    -----

    A horrible story spread widely by the first Bush administration prior to the Gulf War about Kuwaiti babies pulled from incubators by invading Iraqis turned out not to be true. The current Bush administration may be also misinforming the public in its efforts to justify a possible second war with Saddam Hussein.

    One example of misinformation, according to physicist and former weapons inspector David Albright, was the Bush administration’s leak to the media in September about Iraq’s attempt to import aluminum tubes which administration officials claimed were headed for Iraq’s nuclear program.

    “I think it was very misleading,” says Albright, who directs the Ins ute for Science and International Security. Albright says the tubes could be possibly used for a nuclear program, but were more suited to conventional weapons production. Government experts thought that too, Albright tells Simon, but administration officials “were selectively picking information to bolster a case that the Iraqi nuclear threat was more imminent than it is, and, in essence, scare people." --60 Minutes, 12.06.02

    ----

    President Bush, speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein, warned that Iraq has a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used "for missions targeting the United States."

    Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear weapons capabilities, Bush cited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency saying the Iraqis were "six months away from developing a weapon." And last week, the president said objections by a labor union to having customs officials wear radiation detectors has the potential to delay the policy "for a long period of time."

    All three assertions were powerful arguments for the actions Bush sought. And all three statements were dubious, if not wrong. Further information revealed that the aircraft lack the range to reach the United States; there was no such report by the IAEA; and the customs dispute over the detectors was resolved long ago. --10.22.02, Washington Post

    ---

    Asked later if his [Harken] stock sale had been related to the company's impending setback, {Board member] Bush replied, "I absolutely had no idea and would not have sold it had I known."

    In fact, SEC records show that Harken's president had warned board members two months before Bush's sell-off that the company had liquidity problems that would "drastically affect" operations. --SF Chronicle, 07.05.02

    --

    Bush: bragged that in Texas he was signing up children for the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) as "fast as any other state."

    Fact: "As governor he fought to unsuccessfully to limit access to the program. He would have limited its coverage to children with family incomes up to 150 percent of the poverty level, though federal law permitted up to 200 percent. The practical effect of Bush's efforts would have been to exclude 200,000 of the 500,000 possible enrollees." Washington Post, 10/12/00

    ---

    Some Bush backers claim he's not a liar, he's just not very bright and doesn't remember things very well. That may be true, but we're sure Bush would not allow such an excuse in his "responsibility era." We're sure Bush would agree that if he's that dumb, he shouldn't be President. Other Bush backers claim that some of his lies are "technically correct" or "tailored to fit the audience," or some such cir locution. What they're talking about are lies of omission rather than lies of commission. In lies of omission it's what they imply, not what they say. For example, before the 2000 election Bush told Congress and the American people that he was putting a "lock box" on Social Security. Now, it's very clear that Bush wanted us to feel secure in the belief that he was protecting all of our Social Security funds for the future. No question, right? Yet, the very next day when his budget book was released, we learned that Bush told a lie of omission. What he didn't tell Congress and the American people is that he would later take from $.6 to $1 trillion out of that "lock box" to cover his tax cuts. No doubt, Bush lied. He wanted folks to believe something that he knew was not true. Of course, politicians do this all the time. It's second nature. In sum, the thing that really bothers us about Bush's lies is that he is also a hypocrite and pretends he's above lying. As a liar, he reinforces our assumptions about politicians. As a hypocrite, he reinforces our assumptions about his character.
    Last edited by Nbadan; 02-03-2005 at 04:34 AM.

  3. #103
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    Just a few Bush Lies..

    Some critics say Bush's zeal for running Iraq and transforming it into a democracy sounds just like the nation-building efforts he campaigned against. On Oct. 11, 2000, then-Texas Gov. Bush said: "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not." But yesterday White House press secretary Ari Fleischer proved the critics wrong once again. "During the campaign, the president did not express, as you put it, disdain for nation-building," he said. So there you have it." --Washington Post

    First off, he was not the president at the time. You can not tell which nations or people he was talking about from the quote. And if you think about how to apply this quote to Afghanistan and Iraq it makes sense. The US couldn't encourage either of those countries to improve themselves. The leadership of both would not allow that to take place. And you can't really supply financial aid to a sworn enemy.

    -----

    A horrible story spread widely by the first Bush administration prior to the Gulf War about Kuwaiti babies pulled from incubators by invading Iraqis turned out not to be true. The current Bush administration may be also misinforming the public in its efforts to justify a possible second war with
    Saddam Hussein.

    Dan, why did you even put this in here? The FIRST Bush administration? What does this have to with my question or the topic at hand? So the current Bush MAY be lying? That is ridiculous. Saying this is proof they are lying because they MAY be lying. WTF! OH and about spreading misinformation, maybe they thought the story to be true and were simply wrong for not verifying it. Kind like a certain GI-Joe that was recently captured huh?

    One example of misinformation, according to physicist and former weapons inspector David Albright, was the Bush administration’s leak to the media in September about Iraq’s attempt to import aluminum tubes which administration officials claimed were headed for Iraq’s nuclear program.

    “I think it was very misleading,” says Albright, who directs the Ins ute for Science and International Security. Albright says the tubes could be possibly used for a nuclear program, but were more suited to conventional weapons production. Government experts thought that too, Albright tells Simon, but administration officials “were selectively picking information to bolster a case that the Iraqi nuclear threat was more imminent than it is, and, in essence, scare people." --60 Minutes, 12.06.02

    So where is the lie? The individual agrees that the tubes could possibly be used for nuclear weapons. Did Bush say there was no other use for them? No.


    ----

    President Bush, speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein, warned that Iraq has a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used "for missions targeting the United States."

    Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear weapons capabilities, Bush cited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency saying the Iraqis were "six months away from developing a weapon." And last week, the president said objections by a labor union to having customs officials wear radiation detectors has the potential to delay the policy "for a long period of time."

    All three assertions were powerful arguments for the actions Bush sought. And all three statements were dubious, if not wrong. Further information revealed that the aircraft lack the range to reach the United States; there was no such report by the IAEA; and the customs dispute over the detectors was resolved long ago. --10.22.02, Washington Post

    This was the next 2 paragraphs from that article.

    As Bush leads the nation toward a confrontation with Iraq and his party into battle in midterm elections, his rhetoric has taken some flights of fancy in recent weeks. Statements on subjects ranging from the economy to Iraq suggest that a president who won election underscoring Al Gore's knack for distortions and exaggerations has been guilty of a few himself.

    Presidential embroidery is, of course, a hoary tradition. Ronald Reagan was known for his apocryphal story about liberating a concentration camp. Bill Clinton fibbed famously and under oath about his personal indiscretions to keep a step ahead of Whitewater prosecutors. Richard M. Nixon had his Watergate denials, and Lyndon B. Johnson was often accused of stretching the truth to put the best face on the Vietnam War. Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy, too, played with the truth during the Gary Powers and Bay of Pigs episodes.


    ---

    Asked later if his [Harken] stock sale had been related to the company's impending setback, {Board member] Bush replied, "I absolutely had no idea and would not have sold it had I known."

    In fact, SEC records show that Harken's president had warned board members two months before Bush's sell-off that the company had liquidity problems that would "drastically affect" operations. --SF Chronicle, 07.05.02

    The commission investigated Bush for insider trading but no charges were brought. Nevertheless, the Dallas Morning News quoted a 1993 letter from investigators to Bush's lawyer stressing that this "must in no way be construed as indicating that (Bush) has been exonerated."
    --

    Bush: bragged that in Texas he was signing up children for the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) as "fast as any other state."

    Fact: "As governor he fought to unsuccessfully to limit access to the program. He would have limited its coverage to children with family incomes up to 150 percent of the poverty level, though federal law permitted up to 200 percent. The practical effect of Bush's efforts would have been to exclude 200,000 of the 500,000 possible enrollees." Washington Post, 10/12/00

    First off, do you know what bragging means? Bush said he was signing people fast. That means he signed them quickly. He never said he had signed MORE people than any other state. As far as setting standards to limit access from certain families that is a judgement call on his part. It's not a lie.


    ---

    Some Bush backers claim he's not a liar, he's just not very bright and doesn't remember things very well. That may be true, but we're sure Bush would not allow such an excuse in his "responsibility era." We're sure Bush would agree that if he's that dumb, he shouldn't be President. Other Bush backers claim that some of his lies are "technically correct" or "tailored to fit the audience," or some such cir locution. What they're talking about are lies of omission rather than lies of commission. In lies of omission it's what they imply, not what they say. For example, before the 2000 election Bush told Congress and the American people that he was putting a "lock box" on Social Security. Now, it's very clear that Bush wanted us to feel secure in the belief that he was protecting all of our Social Security funds for the future. No question, right? Yet, the very next day when his budget book was released, we learned that Bush told a lie of omission. What he didn't tell Congress and the American people is that he would later take from $.6 to $1 trillion out of that "lock box" to cover his tax cuts. No doubt, Bush lied. He wanted folks to believe something that he knew was not true. Of course, politicians do this all the time. It's second nature. In sum, the thing that really bothers us about Bush's lies is that he is also a hypocrite and pretends he's above lying. As a liar, he reinforces our assumptions about politicians. As a hypocrite, he reinforces our assumptions about his character.
    No doubt, you haven't proven anything. Was he specifically asked if he was going to take any money out? No? And I believe Gore was using the "Lock Box" term with great conviction too.


    Well it looks like everyone is splitting hairs here. Nearly every "lie" you present is really either only questionable by it's wording or by the opinions of some othe individual. It's like the basic differences between the left and right philosophies.

  4. #104
    Alabama Spurs Fan dcole50's Avatar
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    Of which we are aware...
    don't go rush on me and tell me he had people killed sopranos style.

  5. #105
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    don't go rush on me and tell me he had people killed sopranos style.
    Nope, didn't say that. I'm just saying he's probably the most conniving, dishonest, disreputable, self-serving, megalomaniac ever to occupy the office of the Presidency. There's no telling what's in that man's many closets.

  6. #106
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    what if bush is that as well? i mean, why could clinton be challenged yet george w bush cannot be?

  7. #107
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    what if bush is that as well? i mean, why could clinton be challenged yet george w bush cannot be?
    There is no evidence Bush is any of those things.

  8. #108
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    ha. then how could it be determined that clinton was when you couldnt question him in the first place?

  9. #109
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    ha. then how could it be determined that clinton was when you couldnt question him in the first place?
    huh?

  10. #110
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    i guess i should try again

    how could you tell if clinton was evil and all the other things you claim if one had to accept everything he said at face value?

  11. #111
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    i guess i should try again

    how could you tell if clinton was evil and all the other things you claim if one had to accept everything he said at face value?
    From the record of lawsuits, investigations, grand jury indictments, prosecutions, imprisonments, impeachment, perjury, obstruction of justice, alleged sexual assaults and rapes, malfeasence, and just plain s miness that pervaded his office, his family, his cabinet and his 8 years in office.

    That's how.

  12. #112
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    so a president can be critiqued, just not a republican one

  13. #113
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    so a president can be critiqued, just not a republican one
    No, never said that. This all started with you whining about the Demoncrats being fact-checked but not Bush. So, fact-check him already...no one is stopping you.

  14. #114
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    well its the logical outcome of your argument. if you cant question a president until you find out through questioning him that hes evil et al...then what we have here is a conundrum or at least a trip down fascist memory lane

  15. #115
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    well its the logical outcome of your argument. if you cant question a president until you find out through questioning him that hes evil et al...then what we have here is a conundrum or at least a trip down fascist memory lane
    Your argument implies the President is the only source for formulating an opinion about his policies and his character.

    I'm not asking you to take the President's word on anything. Just look at his record of saying what he means and doing what he's says he's going to do. Then, look a previous administrations.

  16. #116
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    yeah but thats questioning him and youve said you dont have to do that and implied that doing so is unamerican

  17. #117
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    yeah but thats questioning him and youve said you dont have to do that and implied that doing so is unamerican
    I did no such thing. [mixed thread reference] No one called you Un-anything...except, maybe, unintelligent.

    There's nothing in this President's first term to suggest he's not to be taken at his word.

    In the Clinton administration, we had perjury to suggest he is dishonest.

  18. #118
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    actually you said

    Because, unlike with the Demoncrats, I have no reason to disbelieve the President's assertions.
    so if you think that everything the current president says is correct and that only those traitorous "demoncrats" would dare question him then how is anyone supposed to be a good loyal american and question the current administration?

    accepting everything someone says without questioning it doesnt sound very intelligent to me.

  19. #119
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    so if you think that everything the current president says is correct and that only those traitorous "demoncrats" would dare question him then how is anyone supposed to be a good loyal american and question the current administration?
    First of all there's a difference between being "correct" and being "honest." As I've just said, in another thread, I don't believe this President is always "correct." I do, however, believe he is honest and a person of character. There's always the chance, with that assessment, that he may have more information on which to base his policy decisions than do I.

    Secondly, I never used the word "traitor" or "un-American" and, I was referring to my being able to trust a Demoncratic politician (because, frankly they have a pretty poor track record of being honest); I was not referring to anyone's rights or patriotism for exercising their freedom to criticize the President, the government, or anything else.

    I was merely stating that I, me, Yonivore saw no reason to distrust President Bush but, that I had plenty of reason to distrust the previous Demoncratic administration.

    I think you confused the part of my statement that said, "...unlike with the Demoncrats,..." to say, "...unlike the Demoncrats,..." Big difference.

    And, your using the term "der leader" or whatever it is, is more of a direct slur on the President's character and patriotism (and an inferred one on mine) than anything that's been said about you in here.

  20. #120
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    oh so now he's not correct hes just good old honest george dubya bush.

    actually you have used the word traitor before explicity often as well as implicitly.

    hey man if you think your patriotism is being questioned, good. that might give you some sense of what you do in here on a daily basis.

  21. #121
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    accepting everything someone says without questioning it doesnt sound very intelligent to me.
    I missed this part.

    I don't accept everything the president says without a critical assessment.

    I disagree on his immigration policy. I think it's dangerous. But, I'm not an expert on immigration and there could be something I'm missing in the formula...I give the President the benefit of the doubt because I trust him. I would have no such trust for Bill Clinton...or John Kerry. Both of whom are proven liars.

    I disagree with his law enforcement policy vis-a-vis the war on drugs (actually a holdover from previous administrations). I think it's ineffectual and a drain on an already fractured criminal justice system. But, I also think it's a huge ship that will be hard to turn when, and if, a President finally decides to tackle reform of criminal justice...this President gets a pass from me because, well, he's had bigger fish to fry. In any case, I think this President and I fundamentally disagree over the war on drugs so, even if it was the fish in the pan, I doubt he'd change the policy.

    I disagreed, vehemently, on his social spending; from his education compromise with that back-stabbing, woman-drowning, drunkard Ted Kennedy to his handing out prescription drugs to old farts. But, I also believe these were matter of political expedience and that he intends to make up for that in a second term...I've always believed that, even when I disagreed with him signing the legislation. (But, given this, I've always wondered about the "divider not a uniter" cannard of the Left. They've yet to reach over the aisle on any initiative of the President's. In fact, they've become more obstructionist as the term progressed. This cost Tom Daschle his job.

    And, that doesn't mean I throw the baby out with the bath water and that doesn't mean I don't believe he has the nations interest at heart, in the final analysis. Fact is, a Demoncratic John Kerry would have done all those things and more and worse.

    On the important matters, I agree with his foreign policy ini iative, including the Bush Doctrine. I agree we're doing the right thing in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe his freezing out Arafat until death and a democratic election of a new leader was the right thing to do. I agree with the war on terror and the need to be relentless.

    I agree on his Social Security proposal.

    I also said, during his first term, when he was spending -- along with Congress -- like a drunken sailor, that I felt he would reign in spending during his second term. He's promised that in this State of the Union Address and I have no reason, and he's got no record, to suggest it will be otherwise. I've long suspected his spending, during the first term was more a result of not wanting to waste political capital on domestic issues when there were more pressing internation affairs for which he needed Congressional support.

    I also believe he's offset, somewhat, the spending with a tax policy that gave relief to everyone, increased federal revenues, jump-started a recessionary economy, and usher in record growth. Even unemployment numbers are very promising now. You can't argue with that even though I know you will. All ecomonic indicators are up -- in spite of heading into a recession at the beginning of his term and even after the economic (not to mention national) insult brought on by 9/11.

    Do you think a joint resolution on the use of force in Iraq would have passed as easily if he hadn't bucked the Conservative aisle and reached over to Kennedy on education and the others on prescription medicine? I don't.

  22. #122
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    oh so now he's not correct hes just good old honest george dubya bush.
    No, he's not and I've never suggested he was correct on everything. But, yes, I believe him to be an honest person of integrity and character.
    actually you have used the word traitor before explicity often as well as implicitly.
    Not with respect to the issue of criticizing the President and questioning your federal government. , I do that. I've used the term traitor in relation to the Demoncrats efforts to stall the war effort and try to bleed troop moral in the middle of a war.
    hey man if you think your patriotism is being questioned, good. that might give you some sense of what you do in here on a daily basis.
    I don't let small people in anonymous forums dictate how I feel about my character. Dream on. I really don't dwell too much on what you think of me...

  23. #123
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    you believe him to be a honest man yet you dont question him because you believe him to be honest yet you have questioned him before.

    it all makes sense now.

    yes, you have referred to people who disagree with this administration as "traitors" before. thanks.

    maybe youre the small person with poor character. if you dont dwell on what i think of you whyd you just drop that essay in this thread?

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