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  1. #1301
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Ha. Yeah, but usually the sodomy/fellatio posts are directed at a poster (or a poster's mother!).

    BTW, did you see that your post was mentioned in a blog -

    Link to Cucking Funt reference on Holes in Thoughts
    Angle luv has made herself infamous


  2. #1302
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    Ha. Yeah, but usually the sodomy/fellatio posts are directed at a poster (or a poster's mother!).

    BTW, did you see that your post was mentioned in a blog -

    Link to Cucking Funt reference on Holes in Thoughts
    OK so Spurs fans are good for something, after all.
    actually, she's a Kings fan.

    Damn, that's twice today I've shown my Kings love...what the has gotten into me?

  3. #1303
    Heckler in the Stands anakha's Avatar
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    Do you believe that there is a possibility your beliefs could very well be wrong?
    Are you also open to any possibility of your own beliefs being wrong as well?

  4. #1304
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    Great question. If we could ascertain that the New Testament accounts of Jesus's miracles were completely fabricated would you denounce Christianity?
    Well, I would hope not. While I'm an atheist, I rather enjoy some of the moral teachings of the New Testament and find a great of wisdom in its pages. I think living a life according to the supposed teachings of Jesus is a great way to live. I myself live a very "Christian-like" lifestyle and I think the Bible is mostly fiction. I say "Christian-like" because many of the precepts contained in the New Testament are found in other religions and life philosophies, but that in no way takes away from the intrinsic wisdom of the book.

  5. #1305
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    None is a valid answer too, and it's implicit in the question. There's nothing tricky/loaded about it in the way the question was proposed. I don't need to propose toes, or dictation or using a pen with my mouth to imply that 'none' is also a valid answer.



    The problem with you is that you made a stupid comment and now that you've been called out for it, don't have the balls to agree that you were wrong. And your whole premise of science being stupid because they pull out the 'we dont know' card, comes down crashing when you use pull out the exact same card every day in life.

    But if you want to keep amusing us, please go ahead, and defend your 'loaded question' position one more time.
    There's ZERO ambiguity in the question. Absolutely NOTHING was added to the original question. What happened is that rascal tossed a theory that the response would need to be a number between 1-10. His theory is wrong in that the response needs to be a number between 0-10, and I gave him an example to sustain that 0 is a valid answer too. Unlikely? sure, but as the question was posed, absolutely valid.
    I never said ambiguity was in the original question, i said it occured when you yourself as you say provided information that fingers weren't the only possible variables.

    That doesn't make it invalid...
    ^^^^^

    I'll agree that the trick doesn't make it invalid like you did right there. It makes it a loaded question which is what i said it was.

    Also i never said science was stupid. I said science was like religion, so i guess since you think religions are stupid you equated the two.

  6. #1306
    Senior Member TheMadHatter's Avatar
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    Are you also open to any possibility of your own beliefs being wrong as well?
    Absolutely.

  7. #1307
    Senior Member TheMadHatter's Avatar
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    Well, I would hope not. While I'm an atheist, I rather enjoy some of the moral teachings of the New Testament and find a great of wisdom in its pages. I think living a life according to the supposed teachings of Jesus is a great way to live. I myself live a very "Christian-like" lifestyle and I think the Bible is mostly fiction. I say "Christian-like" because many of the precepts contained in the New Testament are found in other religions and life philosophies, but that in no way takes away from the intrinsic wisdom of the book.
    Is there a difference between being Christian and simply being someone who tries to live his/her life by the morals in the Bible?

  8. #1308
    Believe. MaryAnnKilledGinger's Avatar
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    Is there a difference between being Christian and simply being someone who tries to live his/her life by the morals in the Bible?
    "I am the way, the truth, and the light..."

    etc

  9. #1309
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    Is there a difference between being Christian and simply being someone who tries to live his/her life by the morals in the Bible?
    why would a non christian follow the bible?

  10. #1310
    United Autodidact Society Shastafarian's Avatar
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    why would a non christian follow the bible?
    The pictures?

  11. #1311
    Heckler in the Stands anakha's Avatar
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    Just checking. Carry on.

  12. #1312
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    A fully illustrated Bible would be x-rated.

  13. #1313
    Heckler in the Stands anakha's Avatar
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    Is there a difference between being Christian and simply being someone who tries to live his/her life by the morals in the Bible?
    Would you consider the morals as stated in the Bible to be exclusive to Christianity?

  14. #1314
    Heckler in the Stands anakha's Avatar
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    A fully illustrated Bible would be x-rated.
    Especially the Old Testament.

  15. #1315
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    why would a non christian follow the bible?
    Why not? It's a life philosophy. Maybe my prior post was a bit misleading. I don't live my life according to the Bible, but the way I live my life is similar to what the Bible teaches.

    Also, I don't think I need to be assured that I will receive eternal life or salvation in order for me to see the merit in helping others, living a simple life, caring for my fellow man, etc.

  16. #1316
    Believe. Anti.Hero's Avatar
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    There is much wisdom in the bible. If some of you cannot even appreciate that aspect of it, you have failed at this life and good luck in the next.

  17. #1317
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    So then what makes your belief in abiological origins any more valid than my belief in a supernatural GOD?

    In the meantime continue to wait for validation of said theory...

    Oh... and don't pretend to lecture me on the scientific method.
    I don't have 'beliefs' in abiological origins. I think it's a theory that is being scrutinized and tested whenever possible. One of this days, we're going to find out whether it's valid or not.
    How often you scrutinize your god? How often you scrutinize and validate the bible writings?
    And I'll keep on lecturing you on the scientific method for as long as you try to wedge in faith into to.

    You're the one going in circles. Quit trying to suggest that I've somehow made a blanket statement against all science.

    I'm not debating the principles behind belief in scientific theories. I'm debating the skewed nature of the 'evidence' being used to validate the theory of abiological origins... the burden of proof in this case does not fall on me, it falls on those trying to substantiate the claim that life sprung out of no where.
    What 'skewed evidence'?

    My claim was that belief in abiological origins requires a certain amount of faith. Why? Because as of right now that claim is only an unproven theory. You stated that much yourself, I don't know why admission of that statement is so difficult for you to accept. Also, just because you have acknowledged it as a theory doesn't mean that the mainstream audience considers it as such. They have come to accept it as fact because it was taught to them that way; most aren't even aware that this particular theory has yet to be proven.
    The claim requires further study, period. This is what you can't seem to get inside your head. Science doesn't ask you to believe blindly in a theory or take it at face value. Science asks you to scrutinize it, try to prove it wrong, it actually asks you to do the opposite of what you suggest: have faith and accept it as it is. The rules, however, are that you need to prove it wrong with facts. Guessing doesn't enter the equation. If you're going to shot it down, you have to be able to demonstrate your claim irrefutably.

    Furthermore, I believe there is a disconnect between our use of the word "faith". To me, faith is to believe in something without having physical proof of its existence. There is no spiritual connotation involved. Your rebuttals leave the impression that I'm somehow not disassociating the two premises.
    No, actually you're right on the dot. My definition of faith matches yours exactly.

    Evolution equals not abiological orgins....

    One is a biological model that defines the dynamics for speciation. The other, well... attempts to define how life itself began.

    The theory of evolution (lower case enphasized) is supported by much geological and empirical evidence. But it doesn't address the origins question.
    I brought evolution up, because you brought Ben Stein, who criticized 'Darwinism' quite a bit.

    Who says I've disregarded the research??? I've read through 65+ years worth of articles on the subject. It kind of comes with the territory of attaining a degree in Molecular Genetics.
    Having a Genetic Biologist in the family, I know exactly what you mean. I'm not sure you went as deep on the RNA/DNA gene department as my sister, but I'm sure you probably touched it at least tangentially.

    Collisions like the one you're suggesting would incinerate living organisms - not sprout life. Without its protective enzymes DNA would denaturalize (at temperatures slightly over 200 deg F). I believe this line of reasoning was abandoned in the early 80's because it was found that most of the 'organic' compounds required to produce amino acids would crack and oxidize. Furthermore, the concentration gradient required to keep the products from thermally breaking down after the reaction couldn't be overcome by any known natural process. As soon as amino acids were formed they would revert to lower energy states by breaking down into their cons uent species. Also, the unbiased production of right-handed amino acid species curbed subsequent attempts to grow RNA chains longer than 5 base pairs long. So you see, the lab setting is an essential participant to the creation of 'life in a flask' - don't disassociate the two. We eliminate all the physical (natural) constrainsts that would otherwise negate the reaction towards viable genetic material - and even when finally produced the molecules don't survive very long.

    The environments required to form the sugar-phosphate backbone polymer is radically different from the enviroment required to produce amino acids (5 of which also act as DNA/RNA base pairs). Labs are required to bring the two together. Undermining the effects of human interaction, however convenient, is what would be intellectually dishonest.
    You need to read more. This is a study from the year 2000:


    Other research suggests a colder start to life. Work by Leslie Orgel and colleagues on the synthesis of purines has shown that freezing temperatures are advantageous, due to the concentrating effect for key precursors such as HCN.[17] Research by Stanley Miller and colleagues suggested that while adenine and guanine require freezing conditions for synthesis, cytosine and uracil may require boiling temperatures.[18] Based on this research Miller suggested a beginning of life involving freezing conditions and exploding meteorites.[19] A new article in Discover Magazine points to research by the Miller group indicating the formation of seven different amino acids and 11 types of nucleobases in ice when ammonia and cyanide were left in a freezer from 1972–1997.[20][21] This article also describes research by Hauke Trinks showing the formation of RNA molecules 400 bases long under freezing conditions using an RNA template, a single-strand chain of RNA that guides the formation of a new strand of RNA. As that new RNA strand grows, it adheres to the template.[22] The explanation given for the unusual speed of these reactions at such a low temperature is eutectic freezing. As an ice crystal forms, it stays pure: only molecules of water join the growing crystal, while impurities like salt or cyanide are excluded. These impurities become crowded in microscopic pockets of liquid within the ice, and this crowding causes the molecules to collide more often.


    And while it's still a theory, which means it might still be shot down, I think it has it's merits (I guess here is where I have to add the disclaimer that I don't hold any 'beliefs' in this theory. I merely think it has it's advantages over other theories, but I anxiously await further studies on the topic).
    The reality is that abiogenesis is a fairly new theory. While it was hinted at by Darwin mid 19 century, the very first advances on the topic did not happen until the 1920's and the first actual experiment, Miller-Urey, was done only 55 years ago, which conclusively demonstrated how 22 amino acids were created along with sugars and lipids from water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen and carbon monoxide. The latest research from this experiment dates back to, well, this month (October 2008). So this is an area that is being actively researched, and I definitely will keep an eye on.

    I hope you keep your mind open too...

    hardy har har... nice little red herring. Faith would undeniably be required if you wanted me to believe that something as complex as a simple desk sprung out of a tree. Of course I know who makes them. You missed the point entirely. Intelligent design is also required, the wood pieces alone don't assemble themselves.
    You don't need faith because we know for a fact that at the very least a human designed the desk and most likely put it together too. You know that's a FACT. What you're trying to do, however, is take that same concept and apply it to something we don't know for a fact. You now extrapolate the concept and propose that 'God design humans' and call that Intelligent design. Now you linked in the supernatural that you can't even remotely explain or try to substantiate in science. At this point is where faith and unsubstantiated claims enter the picture.

    Or that you have placed your faith in such events. Same difference... hmm where have I heard that before? Oh yeah... this "big fella in the sky," AKA GOD created the Universe... sounds like a pretty exceptional event to me!
    The difference is that we know for a FACT that such exceptional events did happen. Volcanic eruptions, meteors, etc. God? Just an imaginary en y in the collective mind.

    While mathematically possible it is not really plausible. You wish to hinge your faith on that one too [belief in abiological origins]?
    How can you postulate that it's mathematically not plausible if we don't even know the size of our universe? We have absolutely no idea what 3/4 of our universe contains either. I'd love to see the mathematical equation of probability you used on that one.
    And I don't have 'faith'. I'm of the idea that our entire universe (and even any others, if they happen to exist) can be explained by science. And I'll I have no problems living with that line of thought.

    Look, I've already played the numbers game with RandomGuy before. Ultimately, creation of DNA from pure chance alone was on the order of 10^-289... or some rediculous number that was for all intents and purposes zero. But no, he would rather hold on to that statistical chance than to ever admit that belief in GOD was more likely. At least I'm aware of the numerical chances that people such as yourself have willingly chosen to hinge your disbelief to.
    How could you calculate ANYTHING at all, if we have barely scratched the surface when it comes to discovering what's outside our galaxy alone. This is completely baffling. You actually are telling me you have any kind of authority to know every material or planet in the universe? Excuse me if I don't believe you.

    No, I didn't forget it. The odds would be staggering (check your math), which is why I used it as an example. For that matter, the number wasn't chosen randomly as 50 represents the amount of base pairs for the smallest known, genetically significant RNA sequence, similar to the scale of a prion (which borrows its enzymes from pre-existing DNA/RNA organisms to replicate). It's so small and yet it's entropic order is surreal.
    What math? Care to describe the math that has at least 2 unknown variables that cannot be estimated?

    So says the atheistic sector of the scientific community.

    Answer me this then - since no one around here has attempted to answer the question in the three years I've been around here. What differentiates a recently deceased corpse from a living person? I mean, the corpse has every necessary biological component required to live. Why then is it dead? The DNA is there? The genetic material doesn't start trying to 'jump ship' and subsist as some other form of life. DNA doesn't exhibit these properties. The corpse just withers away.
    The corpse has the necessary components, but the most important component does not have the necessary energy to function. A lack of glucose or oxygen in the brain can cause it to get damaged or shut down. Since the brain controls all the other organs in a human body, the rest of the body stops functioning, and thus the person is no longer 'alive'.
    For example, in the case of severe cerebral hypoxia, flow of oxygen to the brain is either lowered or completely stopped. In order to function, a human brain needs approximately 3.3ml of oxygen for each 100 grams of brain tissue each minute. When it doesn't get it, brain damage begins.


    IMO life is not a physical attribute. It is gifted to us from the spiritual realm. So until that realm is physically defined, I will believe that life itself is by very definition supernatural.
    I respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it.

    Yeah it's absurd. About as much so as belief that the most complex biological molecule suddently sprung out of a chemical broth. Except I'm not ignoring the 'big elephant' in the living room... I acknowledge the Creator's hand was involved.
    Now you're ranting. What is absurd? That we know for a fact that the Empire State building was developed using sound science and not simply faith?

    BTW your accusations are rather annoying.... At this point you've called me "intellectually dishonest", "uneducated", accused me of "lazy disregard"
    for scientific principles... that is not how discussion is garnered.
    When a self-proclaimed scientist that claims to know what the scientific method is keeps on attempting to introduce elements such as 'faith' and 'supernatural' into it, you will be called out for it. What you believe in is not called science, it's called pseudoscience, or as some like to call it, junk science.

  18. #1318
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    Would you consider the morals as stated in the Bible to be exclusive to Christianity?
    No, not at all. In fact, most of the teachings I enjoy in the New Testament are also found in Buddhism.

  19. #1319
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    Why not? It's a life philosophy. Maybe my prior post was a bit misleading. I don't live my life according to the Bible, but the way I live my life is similar to what the Bible teaches.

    Also, I don't think I need to be assured that I will receive eternal life or salvation in order for me to see the merit in helping others, living a simple life, caring for my fellow man, etc.
    But you don't follow the bible, you live a life of morality sure but not cause of the Bible.

  20. #1320
    Veteran
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    That's a good question and one that I've pondered myself. I am an atheist, but have nothing against religion. I've often wondered what kind of proof it would take to get me to believe in the Christian God. Sadly, I've come to the conclusion that outside of a guy with a flowing beard and robes descending from the sky and saying "That whole Bible-thing. Yeah, it's all true," I'd probably evaluate any other type of evidence with a great degree of skepticism and disbelief.

    I say "sadly," because at times I've been critical of believers and I've thought to myself "Man, what's it going to take before they realize that the Christian God is man-made phenomena created to provide us with a sense of security and comfort in an unpredictable and uncaring world." I'm no better than they are and really have no more evidence for my beliefs than they do.
    Nice post. While it's true that Christians and non-Christians are inevitably going to clash sometimes in the political arena, I accept them as I accept every other difference that I encounter in the world. I mean, I prefer basketball over baseball, cities over small towns, adidas over nike, red wine over white wine, corduroy over polyester, and pizza over seafood... does any of this really make sense...? I don't think so. All we can do is try to ac ulate a good collection of preferences in this world that hopefully makes our lives more decent and beautiful, while doing as little harm as possible.

  21. #1321
    Linger Ficking Good! CuckingFunt's Avatar
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    BTW, did you see that your post was mentioned in a blog -

    Link to Cucking Funt reference on Holes in Thoughts
    But it's attributed to a Spurs fan. Eeewwww!!

  22. #1322
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    What could happen for you to think you are wrong?











    *tries skinning the cat another way although it might have been best to let it die*

  23. #1323
    Hunker down you hairy Dawgs! romad_20's Avatar
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    He sure as heaven is! Jesus is the King of Kings, the Bible tells me so.

    And don't go bringing in some Gnostic gospel bull that says Jesus is the "Spur of Spurs".


    Jesus, I don’t know, but I think Old Testament God is a Kings fan. How else could you describe Kings fan's "Lot-like" suffering and screw job by the Lakers.

    This also proves that Satan is a Lakers fan.

  24. #1324
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    ElNono, I never said it did. I think it's a valid answer, just not an obvious one, so I can somewhat see his point as well. I don't think he was saying it was a "wrong" answer per se, just not an 'expected' answer. (Most people assume that typing is done with the hands, even though it could have been done theoretically by some other means. It reminds me of the old bus driver joke and what color his/her eyes were.)
    By your estimate, do you think my question was a 'loaded' or 'tricky' question?

  25. #1325
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    But you don't follow the bible, you live a life of morality sure but not cause of the Bible.
    I agree and I don't think anyone should live life of morality just because of the Bible. You should live a life of morality because you want to and not because of an external threat or promise.

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