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You've lost me. I'm arguing that the 2 games we've seen are an acceptable sample size to guage Bowen's defensive skill decline.
Yup. So, does for the most part mean two games are unacceptable? I'm still looking for answer to this two game thing. Ya know?
You've lost me. I'm arguing that the 2 games we've seen are an acceptable sample size to guage Bowen's defensive skill decline.
And that's all you need to know about tlong. /thread
So, no matter what, for the most part a good defender isn't out of position for most of the game? I can't agree.
I understand that you are saying because of two games this is a good indication of a decline.
What i'm saying to you is, is it really plausible that I can judge someone based on two games?
I seen Paul Pierce play like and shoot twenty percent tonight, oh no, Pierce is on the decline.
Bowen is too smart and savvy to be out of position that much and that frequently. In my estimation, he's losing foot speed,
I guess I'm just really good at recognizing this then. Don't blame me for having this innate ability. Apparently it will take you and some others here a litttle longer. Ten games maybe?
Ten to fifteen games is justifiable. I have nothing wrong with the statement that Bruce Bowen is declining, I just have an issue with your reasons for why he is declining.
Not trying to hate on the OP, but I really wish the le could be changed. Most posters here already ing know Batum was stolen from us, If the FO had the chance they most likely would have taken him at 26. Seeing it everytime I skim the threads is getting annoying quick.
That probably means I should be on ST less, but I love my Spurs!!!(technically the Spurs now that I'm a Huntsvillian)
I'll say it again: being out of position is a mental mistake; it has nothing to do with foot speed. Maybe Bowen has lost a step. Maybe he's no longer effective, but he played stupid the last two games. I'd personally like to see him for a little while longer before I cut him. I'd definitely like to see him when he starts out where he's supposed to be. Duncan's defense has been terrible so far as well, and he looks stronger and quicker than I've seen him in three or four years.
I read what you said the first time. I just disagree. One thing Bowen isn't and that's stupid. Why is it so hard for folks to admit the obvious - that as these players age their skills start to decline? Bowen is 37 years old. This decline didn't start this season. I noticed it during the WCF versus the Fakers, where Koke, for the first time I can remember, made Bowen look rather stationary and ordinary. It happens. Only now, after 2 games, it looks as though the process has accelerated.
I'm not saying he's no longer functional, but to expect him to shoulder the same defensive responsibilities as previous years may be asking a bit too much. Besides that, Bowen hasn't scored a freaking point yet. He's the defensive equivalent of Finley. Where Finley is an offensive one-trick pony, Bowen is a defensive one. If his defensive skills are not up to par, he's of little benefit because he offense is virtually non-existent
Bowen is too much of a pro and has to much pride to ever give in to his own mortality. It's the job of the coach and the FO to plan for this type of transition - not the player. As much as I hate to agree with Tlong, he was right. The FO just became lazy, over-confident and, in my opinion, negligently irresponsible for ignoring the gaping hole at the backup SF position for the past 5 years and for not doing whatever was necessary to secure Batum.
If I'm right and Bowen's has started this rapid descent, that will doom the Spurs defensive philosophy.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 11-02-2008 at 04:34 AM.
I have no problem accepting that Bowen may have lost it. It's absolutely inevitable that it's going to happen sooner or later. I'm simply not convinced of that fact by two games. Kobe hit every stinking thing he put up against the Spurs; I don't think any version of Bowen was going to change that. Again, we'll know in another week or so. Bowen may not be stupid, but he's made stupid defensive mistakes so far, as has everyone on the Spurs. It may take some time for them to play together well; if the improvement from game one to game two is any indication, there will be further defensive improvement going forward.
If Bowen's play continues as it has to this point, the Spurs simply won't be able to hide him, and his minutes will shrink to nothing. He's quite clearly the worst player on the team right now. It's possible that he's not in game shape yet, it's possible that he has an injury we don't know about, and it's possible that the Spurs aren't used to playing together yet. It took smallball several games before the Spurs patched up the holes and mistakes, and this year's roster, plus the missing players, is a much bigger transisition to make. Again, there's no chance that an old Bowen won't make itself obvious very soon. I just think it's too soon. A guy can have a two game funk. It wouldn't be the first time.
Moreover, I agree that the Spurs' FO has missed out on filling what will be a huge void if Bowen is indeed a s of his former self, but a lot of that is cir stance. They brought in guards because the free agent market had more forwards available. They then missed out on the forwards and (in my opinion) are hoping to develop the closest thing they have to Bowen's successor in Austin while they get the roster healthy again.
Missing out on Batum hurts. I'm going to be typing that a lot this year.
Last edited by Obstructed_View; 11-02-2008 at 11:11 AM. Reason: because "dimply" isn't what I meant.
You're being way too kind about Bowen, but I do understand. First off, Bowen is routinely the best-conditioned athlete on the team. He always keeps himself in top shape. He's never been out of shape, nor has he been injured, at any time since he's been a Spur. Second, I saw enough of him late last season to warrant concern. He had trouble containing certain players that he generally had success with. Pop putting Bowen on Chris Paul was simply unfair, so I don't count that. But it bears out, the perhaps Bruce is no longer capable of shutting down every kind of perimeter player around.
My level of pissedoffness on this is two-fold. First off, a player of Batum's skills and talent is rarely found at the end of the first round. As long as the Spurs are drafting toward the end of the round, the potential of getting a steal like this are not very good. Second, the FO foolishly gambled on Bowen's year-to-year productivity, without having an adequate backup player on hand to offset his decline. This has been an annual gamble for the past 5 years and, to date, there is nothing on the roster and nothing coming in the pipeline.
Fans and pundits alike keep bringing up Udoka as an heir apparent to Bowen. I admit Udoka is a nice complimentary player, tough-minded and strong. However, I don't see him as the eventual answer because he's too short, not nearly long or athletic enough, and is not in Bowen's league defensively. This team badly needed to have added a player of Batum's youth, talent, and length. They should've done whatever possible to make it happen. After all, the kid is already an accomplished defender at 19!
I hope I'm wrong about Bowen and rumors of his decline are indeed greatly exaggerrated. Either way, Portland leapfrogging them to take this kid, will be a move that the Spurs will regret for many, many seasons.
Bowen was asked to cover Nash, then to chase Paul for seven games, and then he was handed Kobe who absolutely refused to miss a shot, so any concern based on the fact that the Spurs lost in the western conference finals is ridiculous. He always keeps himself in shape, but game speed is different from anything else, no matter how good your conditioning, and Pop fed the youngsters heavy minutes leading up to the season. I'm sure Bowen's been injured at some point since he's been here and we didn't know anything about it. Why would it be any different now? Again, if I'm being too kind about Bowen, it's because he's under contract, he's been really good for this team, and the Spurs are woefully undermanned. Besides, two games makes for a knee jerk reaction and you know it.
As for Batum, the Spurs did everything they could to get him, and it took the second richest guy in the world with all kinds of draft picks and talent spending a lot of money on a first round draft pick based on nothing more than a hunch from his GM. Perhaps the Spurs could have done something, but it would have taken a crystal ball and more draft picks than they had.
Funny how the situations are similar: You blame Bowen for not stopping Kobe when his jumpers are falling, and you blame the Spurs for not competing with Paul Allen and the Blazers for a draft pick with no warning.
How the am I blaming Bowen? Just because I indicated that what I saw during the last half of last season, including playoffs, indicated to me that he has slipped a bit? Even still, I've got no issues at all with him, declining skills or not. You can't blame a player if he's injured or his skills have declined. That part of the deal as an athlete. Besides, you're completely missing my point. I would never hate on Bowen. He's been THE consummate pro and we're lucky to have him. My issue with his situation is they waited too long to address it. I've maintained that and I believe we agree on that.
If you read my post, I indicated the onus remains with the FO to provide him, and every other integral veteran player, with the right complimentary players to avoid overutilization. Pop has always been very good about that. However, in order to keep remain in contention, this franchise will have to reload. To do so, there needs to be a transitional player in waiting. There is no redeeming value in consistently trotting out "the oldest team in the league" every year, if you're realizing diminshing returns from your stars because they're playing too many minutes or the bench depth is woefully inadequate.
As for the Batum situation, we all know what happened there. Again you're putting words in my mouth. No one is aking the Holt and company to compete with Paul Allen. I have no idea where you got that from. My point is if they were sold on Batum, perhaps they should've tried to move up to obtain him. I agree that no one saw that coming. It still sticks in my craw, though.
Decline is inevitable, no denying that.
2 games is unacceptable to make judgement.
Bowen hasn't scored this is true, but he has also taken all of what, two shots? Lets get real here. In a time of offensive importance it's better to have those who are more inclined to score to have this responsibility. Possessions are of the utmost importance everytime down missing the type of offensive and additional frontline and backcourt players that we are. Certainly someone as smart as Bowen is, as smart as you make him out to be, knows this.
Bowen may be declining at a rapid pace. But, what also may be the situation is that many players that haven't been getting substantial time, are now in fact getting minutes.
They are getting minutes for offense, they are getting minutes because we simply are undermanned, and there is a uncertainty of cohesion after two games. So his decline may not be as drastic as you imply. I know that you know, that one player can disrupt an entire defensive scheme, and players who aren't defensively sound can in fact do this.
It should also be noted that undesired players playing can in fact disrupt the mindset of players accustomed to playing. We all know the guy everyone had issues with playing, you know, the guy we had to pull extra weight for on the defensive end.
I know first hand that it takes more than camp, preseason, and two games to become acclimated to new players. So please, a few more games yes?
Bowen should be accustomed to Finley and Thomas by now. Bowen himself has been the third worst defender on the team.
I'm just giving examples, and those examples aren't limited to Finley and Thomas. We also have Bonner, who has been getting substantial minutes and new players who haven't properly adjusted. Again, two games.
I figured you meant Bonner, and I was having some fun with you. Bonner hasn't been nearly as bad on defense as most people would like to believe. Duncan hasn't been significantly better than Bonner, he's just scored an assload of points to make up for it. I agree that we'll know more once the team's a little more intact and learns to play together. I wouldn't be shocked to see them go on a streak before Manu comes back once they start to figure things out.
That's my fault for not being specific, but i'm always more than happy to clarify things.
This thread is officially BS now that Hill has played his first NBA game and looks even more promising than batum
T Long - You really aren't that stupid are you? How can I respect any of your (faulty) opinions when you think clubs don't retain the rights of unsigned 2nd round picks. Please.
BTW - George Hill can play. He will play both guard spots and do a very good job.
George looked awesome, but he's going to have to keep it up to get that game the other night out of my head.
Dude, I didn't state that as fact. That was merely what I thought at the time and I was wrong about retaining the rights of 2nd round picks. You don't respect any of my opinions anyway so what's the diff?
Regarding Hill...he's better than I thought he would be, but he's still not nearly as valuable as Batum.
As far as value goes assume they both became superior players at their positions. A really good PG is much more valuable and attractive in a trade than a really good SF.
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