Nonconformist?Listen, just because I don't sit around watching highlight clips of Jordan, and thinking that those highlights is all he was capable of doing, doesn't classify me as a nonconformist. More like a realist, and an analyst.
Be real here... MJ was ahead of his time. You think that Kobe, Lebron, or Wade (who IMO has the quickest first step ive ever seen) in the 80s against those less athletic, smaller defenders couldn't have created the same problems? Get the out of here. Any single one of those guys would have been averaging 30+ ppg in the 80s like Jordan did, causing the physical requirements of the guard positions to change, as well as opposing defensive tactics. There was virtually NO ONE that had the kinds of skills and athleticism that Jordan had, and no one that could find ways to slow it down without a double team, whereas the league is FULL of people that have that kind of athleticism, or even superior athleticism, as well as defenders that are somewhat capable of slowing those kinds of players down without a double team. The league has also grown considerably in defensive tactics, so teams know how to deal with such players much better than they did in the 80s.
Jordan was great. Best of all time. But he is not as far ahead of those guys as people think. Personally, I think the only clear edge he really has is a mental edge, although I think that applies more to Kobe and Wade. I feel its arguable that Lebron may actually have an even better mental approach to the game than Jordan. Only time will tell though. I also feel that Kobe has better shooting abilities, and Wade is a superior penetrator. I think all 4 of those guys have areas in which they are superior to the other. Only Jordan has already finished his career. These guys still have plenty of time to go.
Personally, I don't see Kobe surpassing Jordan after the chokejobs hes pulled in recent years. I just don't think he has the natural leadership skills and doesn't get a certain kind of respect that Jordan got from both his teammates and opponents. People don't like Kobe because they think he's an asshole and wannabe Jordan. People didn't like Jordan because they were scared less of him. I think Wade lacks the hunger to win that Kobe, Lebron, and MJ has/had. Lebron I think has the best chance, but he has to work to improve his shot and other areas of his game to help his longevity, otherwise once his athleticism goes, he may run into trouble.
That makes no sense at all.
If anything, that shows just how good and special Lebron is... that he can still not be fully developed or in his prime, yet there are arguments that he is at the same level or even better than Jordan was 6 years into his career.
I don't think that he would blow by him as easily as you think. Lebron has shown he is capable containing Kobe and Wade.
Again, I'm not sure what makes people think Lebron has no post game. I have yet to see anyone stop him from posting them up. He just rarely has a need to because no one can hold him from taking them straight up. But when he does, he often makes people look stupid.
IMO, in a 7 game series of 1-on-1, I think out of Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and MJ, Wade and Lebron would be fighting for the 1st and 2nd spots. MJ 3rd. Kobe 4th.
Stats are not a complete indicator of who is greater ...at this point one could argue that LBJ has acomplished more BUT he was on bad teams like LBJ was but there was no Pistons or Hawks to dominate in the playofs
I dont care what the stats say ..Mj is a wayyy better defender scorer than LBJ ...LBJ is better passer rebounder and is bigger and stronger
I will say this ...I don't consider MJ sacred I think LBJ HAS THE POTENTIAL ...to pass MJ if he continues on his same career path and wins at least 4 les ...
then the argument will be more vaild intil then
MJ is still better ...
You son, are not very smart ...MJ 4th you lose right there also Kobe is better than wade ...
thanks to Shaq.
how the old are you..12? i saw mj play in his prime and after his prime w/ the wizards and ive watched lebron play. do you really think lebrons mental approach to the game is better than mj's?? give me a ing break. michaels mental toughness and compe iveness are some of the things that made him so great. those series against the detroit bad boys where they would hack you and cut your feet from under you if you even dared to drive on them..michael didnt back down he didnt lose it. he fought and battled them until they finally beat detroit. he treated a in practice game like it was an nba finals game. what does lebron do during practice?? run around during practice flexing his arms shooting baskets sitting down on the floor. michaels intensity, compe iveness, and mental toughness are unmatched. kobe has the same mental toughness or is really close. but lebron?? no way is he even close to either of themNonconformist?
Be real here... MJ was ahead of his time. You think that Kobe, Lebron, or Wade (who IMO has the quickest first step ive ever seen) in the 80s against those less athletic, smaller defenders couldn't have created the same problems? Get the out of here. Any single one of those guys would have been averaging 30+ ppg in the 80s like Jordan did, causing the physical requirements of the guard positions to change, as well as opposing defensive tactics. There was virtually NO ONE that had the kinds of skills and athleticism that Jordan had, and no one that could find ways to slow it down without a double team, whereas the league is FULL of people that have that kind of athleticism, or even superior athleticism, as well as defenders that are somewhat capable of slowing those kinds of players down without a double team. The league has also grown considerably in defensive tactics, so teams know how to deal with such players much better than they did in the 80s.
Jordan was great. Best of all time. But he is not as far ahead of those guys as people think. Personally, I think the only clear edge he really has is a mental edge, although I think that applies more to Kobe and Wade. I feel its arguable that Lebron may actually have an even better mental approach to the game than Jordan. Only time will tell though. I also feel that Kobe has better shooting abilities, and Wade is a superior penetrator. I think all 4 of those guys have areas in which they are superior to the other. Only Jordan has already finished his career. These guys still have plenty of time to go.
Personally, I don't see Kobe surpassing Jordan after the chokejobs hes pulled in recent years. I just don't think he has the natural leadership skills and doesn't get a certain kind of respect that Jordan got from both his teammates and opponents. People don't like Kobe because they think he's an asshole and wannabe Jordan. People didn't like Jordan because they were scared less of him. I think Wade lacks the hunger to win that Kobe, Lebron, and MJ has/had. Lebron I think has the best chance, but he has to work to improve his shot and other areas of his game to help his longevity, otherwise once his athleticism goes, he may run into trouble.
Stretch there were more good defenders back in MJ's time than there are now. The only good perimeter defenders that come to mind are like say Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, etc. Even Artest's defense ain't all that great. Also, Michael's 48 inch vertical is untouched in today's league, there definitely isn't "a league full of people with his kind of athleticism." Michael had probably the quickest first step I've ever seen, and I'll concede that Wade is up there with him, maybe even equal or better, but there aren't any other players in history with that kind of first step. I firmly believe that Michael could have a hay day in today's league, because while there's more of a focus on defense, there aren't actually any great perimeter defenders to carry this out. And without the handcheck rule to slow that first step, he's getting any shot he wants all day and every day.
I don't think a lot of you saw Jordan play a lot when he was younger.
You heard it people. To get LeBron's strength and power all you gotta do is flex. Get to it. Guaranteed.
You know you don't have to hit your team-mates in practice to show your compe ive fire.
I remember reading an article about Jordan when he slapped Longley after forgetting something in a particular play. Nope, he didn't slap him during an NBA playoff game, he did that in practice. The man is so ing compe ive it eventually rubbed on to his teammates.
People here think that Lebron is already as great as Jordan. Do you guys ever wonder that in his mid-30s and having played so many battles, Jordan was still dominant? I don't think Wade or Lebron will ever have that kind of longevity.
Why do you think he killed the Spurs you total wit?
Because we had to pay more defensive attention to Shaq instead. The Spurs had to focus on Shaq so that left the second banana Kobe free to roam around and do his damage.
There is NO WAY Kobe was the best player on the team in 2000-2002. Shaq drew most of the defensive attention from the other team and that left Kobe with a lot more room to work. Kobe was the best closer on the team and that is partly due to Shaq drawing a lot of attention away from him.
Last edited by Ice009; 05-20-2009 at 05:54 AM.
You're the fail for calling people out after you miserably failed.
Come on man don't make yourself look more pathetic by trying to deflect your fail away from yourself.
btw Who said Kobe is not a world champion?
How many would Lebron have with Shaq in his prime playing along side him. Look Kobe was great in those Championship runs, but he had a dominant Shaq next to him. Who does Lebron have that comes close to that Shaq?
You obviously missed the point. 1-on-1 pretty much ends up always getting won by the superior athlete. Both of them have incredible skills, but IMO Wade is a better athlete than Kobe. I don't think Kobe could handle Wade's first step at all. And I didn't say MJ was 4th.
Um, I've seen MJ as well. Also keep in mind, MJ was a of a ball hog early in his career. Lebron came into the league knowing the importance of being a team player. It took Jordan 7 years to learn that.
How quickly you also forget Lebron's ridiculous performance against the Pistons. The guy is a natural born leader, whether its by getting his team involved, or taking over games on his own.
You obviously have never seen the kinds of workouts that Lebron has been doing his whole career. The guy is a gym rat. Jordan didn't even start lifitng weights until around 1990. You can tell too, cuz he was a pretty small guy his first 6-7 years.
Just because you love Jordan, doesn't mean you know what the you are talking about.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
You seriously would be better off shoving a basketball up your ass than ever debating basketball again.
Last edited by stretch; 05-20-2009 at 08:32 AM.
Nobody ever said that. People just say that he has a chance to surpass Jordan's greatness. Unfortunately, all people remember are highlights of the 80s, and think that he was Jesus or something... perfect in every way, when he wasnt. he had his flaws too. people talk about him being such a great defender, always taking the opponents best player, when truth be told, that honor more often than not went to pippen for the first 3 quarters. and if it was a close 4th, then Jordan would take the opponents best player. which is exactly what Lebron and Kobe do now.
he was a terrible 3pt shooter for quite some time in the league. he was also a poor leader for his early years. yes, he had a ridiculous will to win, but that doesn't instantly make you a good leader.
and what reasoning do you have for not believing that Lebron or Wade will last as long as Jordan? i would love to hear some backing on that point, because so many people here have been saying it, but with no reasoning behind it.
i agree w/ u on that he was a ball hog the first couple of years..bc to some degree he had too. if they wanted to have any chance at the playoffs he had to score, be the distributor, do everything. and i never said lebron isnt great or isnt a gym rat. i saw his performance in detroit..he played great in that game..and i dnt have to see any of his workouts just by looking at the guy i know he probably works out religiously. my only argument was YOU saying he had the same mental toughness as mj..which only proved your ignorance.. as i said his mental toughness is not even close to kobes or jordans.
dnt know about lebron..but wade..no chance he last as long as jordan he throws his body around to much. his style of play..much like iversons is gonna hurt him in the end. he's fearless when he plays which is admirable..but his body cant take that kind of abuse on a nightly basis. look at the amount of games he has played the last three seasons 51, 51, 79
I said mental approach. And I don't see anything that shows he isn't mentally tough. He's not the one choking series away like Kobe. He was the one taking ty teams and finding ways to beat teams in the playoffs that they had no business playing in the first place. And he isn't the one that is having to learn how to utilize his team and figuring ways to boost their confidence. It took a long time for Jordan to learn that, and Kobe still hasn't fully learned it.
Only time will tell to see if he is as mentally strong as MJ, but signs show he is capable of even surpassing Jordan's mental approach.
I can understand Wade because of the injuries he played with. But Jordan played with a pretty wreckless abandon as well, and look how long he lasted. I think Lebron will be around for a long time.
Winning a le this year is critical for Lebron's legacy!
this is ing stupid. worse than the Kobe/MJ comparison.
MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe > LeBron
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