13% of black men in late 20s in jail or prison

[travis2]

You've been told you can't.

[Useruser666]

Can't we all just get along.

[Clandestino]

The whites couldn't go far into Africa at the time, it was a death trap. Many tried - and in fact, slave traders didn't have a long life expectancy at all because they still had to go to Africa to get the slaves. Why did they do it? Because there was a demand and a market and they could make a living and build a life for themselves - as if a hungry African tribe couldn't see the money to be made here and wouldn't be willing to sell a few people they didn't know. Do you think that the volume of slaves traded over the course of the Atlantic Slave Trade would have been nearly as much had there been no white interest? There wouldn't even have been an Atlantic Slave Trade if that had been the case. Whites also had guns, something that most Africans did not have then (not until the whites gave guns to them so that they could fight each other while the whites took over the land and drew political borders that would keep them fighting for centuries to come) which could be used to coerce someone into doing something they didn't really want to do.

Whites were willing to go to the coast, and it was a decision by coastal tribes largely to either kidnap or be kidnapped. Since you're all about choices it seems, which would you have chosen? Have your family separated and taken aboard those ships were a promise of survival was shaky at best only to arrive in a land where they'd be worked to death, or sell someone else and make enough money to feed your family for a while?

You act like the choices presented in this thread should be so easy for people to make, Clandestino. They're not - especially when you aren't getting support to do the better thing.

the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...

[MannyIsGod]

Agree or disagree, what Yonivore said is, at the least, plausible. Not that I necessarily agree, but I don't find anything he said nearly so outlandish as defining our freedom by the liberties we grant to NAMBLA. Then again, I spend more time pondering fantasy football than I do social issues.

NAMBLA is en led to the same freedom any other organization is en led to. I don't see how the equal application of the law is as outlandish as the downight defensive arrogance that comes from Yonivore in this thread. He's pissed about racism being blamed? HA! Poor Yoni.

I do wish you would address the points Yonivore made. There are millions of Yonivores in the world, and most of them vote. If you, and those who share your views do not address his argument head-on and offer persuasive counters, then those millions will continue to cast votes counter to your's and you will remain an angry young Manny.

I had an entire reply typed out yesterday, and I deleted it before I could finish because the more I wrote, the angier I got. It gets too frustrating in this forum at times. Look at what AHF came in and posted. No one even brought up not holding people accountable for their actions, and no one is saying that slavery/racism/discrimination should give anyone a free pass to commit crimes. I've even said as much in a post.

But yet the debate still comes back to that. I'm tired of sounding like a broken record; and one that no one seems to understand at that.

Personally, I still think you are mistaken in your steadfast desire to work this issue from the top down, because all it will get you is an argument; this is the sort of effort that drives rating wars on cable news channels.

Read what is being said in this thread. How do they percieve to solve the situation Matt? By expecting African Americans to make better choices. No one here advocates except sitting back and waiting for them to make smarter choices.

It would be one thing if they were consistent across the board, but this only flies when it's convienent to them. Ask them to wait for Iraq, North Korea, or Iran to make better choices. Ask them to wait for people to make better choices when it comes to Canadian drugs. Ask them to wait for people to make better choices on what they want on TV.

If we're going to live in a libertarian paradise where personal responsibility is held in high regard, you won't find an arguement from me. But thats not what this is.

Communism for the rich. Capitalism for the poor.

African Americans will eventualy right the ship on their own. I have no doubt about that. But unless there is outside assistance to help the communties (and I've said before what I've thought about the current "welfare" programs in place, thats not what works best) it is going to take longer. MUCH longer.

Apparently this topic has special meaning to you, but what i perceive is just a setline in the waters hoping to hook some mea culpas, as though acknowledgement from whitey for past wrongs is prerequisite for fixing black plight (or whatever term is acceptable).

What if Whitey does not step up and say they are sorry? Then what?

Time to go study the results of the NFL draft.

Then maybe some actualy gets done to help them out. I don't need an apology, and I don't think they do either. They need help. Look in this thread, do you think they are anywhere near getting it?

Personal Responsibility. Right.

[Clandestino]

welfare, welfare, welfare... take away money from those that have worked for it and give it to the excuse makers...

[MannyIsGod]

the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...

Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.

It's so ironic (or is hypocritical the word?) that you guys are arguing over who gets the blame for slavery while trumpeting smarter choices and personal responsibility.

[Clandestino]

Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.

It's so ironic (or is hypocritical the word?) that you guys are arguing over who gets the blame for slavery while trumpeting smarter choices and personal responsibility.

if they were never sold to the whites then there probably wouldn't have been the large numbers of slaves that there were...

[MannyIsGod]

Not today buddy, not today.

[travis2]

I asked Jekka, but I'll ask you too, since I haven't seen anything.

What do you suggest?

[Jekka]

if they were never sold to the whites then there probably wouldn't have been the large numbers of slaves that there were...

That's what I said, genius.

the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...

They didn't know or care about most of the tribes in the interior - a good portion of slaves sold were from tribes that were peaceful and unable to defend themselves against traders - there are many historical do ents to back me up, here - try reading Olaudah Equiano and some actual texts and then get back to me.

Oh really?

OK, so what would you suggest?

I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

[Clandestino]

That's what I said, genius.

so, then you agree.. it is the black man's fault he sold them to us in the first place...

They didn't know or care about most of the tribes in the interior - a good portion of slaves sold were from tribes that were peaceful and unable to defend themselves against traders - there are many historical do ents to back me up, here - try reading Olaudah Equiano and some actual texts and then get back to me.

I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

i have taken courses on this already. saying sorry is not going to do anything for the black men now.. they could care less. it is not going to make them want to get a job instead of living a life of crime.

does not everyone have a chance to succeed in life now? everyone does... that is why immigrants from all over the world risk their lives trying come to the united states... maybe the black male community aged 20-30 is the only group that doesn't realize it...

[Clandestino]

i swear, some of the people here think the united states should be a socialist nation. manny, a socialist will never get a job with nsa...

[Clandestino]

after reading this thread, i've finally seen the light

black people = bad
mexican people = bad, but hardworking
white people = good, but with some flaws

aww i feel so much lighter

then you need to learn to read.

[travis2]

I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

"A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

"[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.

[MannyIsGod]

i swear, some of the people here think the united states should be a socialist nation. manny, a socialist will never get a job with nsa...

Not that I'm a socialist in the manner that you're thinking, but I'm not going to change or hide my way of thinking for any job.

[Clandestino]

Not that I'm a socialist in the manner that you're thinking, but I'm not going to change or hide my way of thinking for any job.

that was a little joke...

[Clandestino]

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

"A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

"[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.

exactly, i didnt do anything wrong.. why should i have to pay for it..

[MannyIsGod]

Travis, I've given detailed explanations on it before, I'm just not in the mood today. If you go back to the thread that was about Bill Cosby, there's a post in there where I lay it all out.

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).
.

Maybe not, but most of white America has benefited from it indirectly. The money that was made and the opportunties weren't all given back to the African American community at the wave of a magic civil rights wand. That money stayed with the families that got it off the backs of African Americans and was used to help those families.

[Spurminator]

How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

That's only part of it.

The student culture of inner city schools is such that you are frowned upon for succeeding educationally. You can poor money into school libraries, but that doesn't mean reading will be any cooler. You can raise the teachers' salaries, but that doesn't mean the kids are going to respect them more. You can fund facilities for extra-curricular activities, but that's not going to make more kids stay after school for Junior Achievement programs.

Change has to begin with parenting and with leadership. America's historical treatment of blacks sucks. It's horrible. But their status as victims is perpetuated by a leadership who is always looking for someone to blame for current problems, and a political party with votes to gain by stirring resentment.

[travis2]

That's only part of it.

The student culture of inner city schools is such that you are frowned upon for succeeding educationally. You can poor money into school libraries, but that doesn't mean reading will be any cooler. You can raise the teachers' salaries, but that doesn't mean the kids are going to respect them more. You can fund facilities for extra-curricular activities, but that's not going to make more kids stay after school for Junior Achievement programs.

Change has to begin with parenting and with leadership. America's historical treatment of blacks sucks. It's horrible. But their status as victims is perpetuated by a leadership who is always looking for someone to blame for current problems, and a political party with votes to gain by stirring resentment.

What he said!

[travis2]

Travis, I've given detailed explanations on it before, I'm just not in the mood today. If you go back to the thread that was about Bill Cosby, there's a post in there where I lay it all out.


Maybe not, but most of white America has benefited from it indirectly. The money that was made and the opportunties weren't all given back to the African American community at the wave of a magic civil rights wand. That money stayed with the families that got it off the backs of African Americans and was used to help those families.

Sounds to me like you're still looking for reparations. That's not an accusation, but it's very easy to come to that conclusion reading what you've written.

[The Ressurrected One]

Are they property of the landowner? No? Then shut the up. They should just go to Harvard and choose not to have to pick vegetables, right?

Are there still slaves out there in America? Why don't the whiny blacks just go to Harvard and choose not to live in ghettos?

Every generation is a reset. Just because your ancestors endured slavery doesn't mean it should affect your current cir stance. We have immigrants from every corner of the world, and indentured servitude aside, some of those immigrants have suffered as much or more than African slaves of the 19th century. But nobody, and I mean nobody has made a freakin' living like the blacks have over victim status...

The Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Cambodians, and Chinese are the most recent escapees of intolerable oppression. Yet, they've managed to assimilate and build successful lives (for the most part) in America.

Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.

[MannyIsGod]

Sounds to me like you're still looking for reparations. That's not an accusation, but it's very easy to come to that conclusion reading what you've written.

You could qualify them as reperations of a sort, but I'm not talking about sending every registered African American a 50 dollar check. I'm talking about infrastructure.

In any case, I don't expect it to happen. The "discussion" in here was mainly over whether or not slavery still has visible effects today. I think it's pretty obvious it does, but apparently I'm one of the few.

[MannyIsGod]

Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.

You're right Matt. This type of is entirely worth responding to.

No, I think I'm done once again in this thread.

[The Ressurrected One]

While Mexican Americans have not always been treated correctly, they've never been property.

Name one black person, alive today, who has been the property of another.

Most Mexican Americans also come from intact family units of two parents.

And that has exactly what to do with slavery?

If you think that doesn't make a difference, you're wrong.

It makes a big difference but, just why are black families so fractured?