"the death penalty in the United States is a moral and practical failure"

[ChumpDumper]

Why can't you people stick to one subject?

It is not analogous with abortion at all.

[spursncowboys]

Really? You'd kill off a prosecutor for making a mistake in good faith?

What about the cops who mistakenly arrested the wrong guy to begin with? Them too? What about the jurors or judge who make the final determination of guilt?

What if a convict gets the lethal injection but is determined later to have been innocent so the prosecutor gets lethally injected as well......only to find later that the original convict really was guilty after all......are you going to sentence the person(s) to die that were involved in sending the prosecutor to death row?

Which kid coming out of law school wouldn't want to aspire to be a prosecutor in your world? It sounds great

Agree one hundred percent. I don't think they should have full immunity but it is a slippery slope and it will probably just keep DA from going for the death penalty if implemented. Your last sentence should be used in regards to health care professionals.

[ChumpDumper]

Agree one hundred percent. I don't think they should have full immunity but it is a slippery slope and it will probably just keep DA from going for the death penalty if implemented. Your last sentence should be used in regards to health care professionals.

Are medical school applications down?

[Yonivore]

Really? You'd kill off a prosecutor for making a mistake in good faith?

What about the cops who mistakenly arrested the wrong guy to begin with? Them too? What about the jurors or judge who make the final determination of guilt?

What if a convict gets the lethal injection but is determined later to have been innocent so the prosecutor gets lethally injected as well......only to find later that the original convict really was guilty after all......are you going to sentence the person(s) to die that were involved in sending the prosecutor to death row?

Which kid coming out of law school wouldn't want to aspire to be a prosecutor in your world? It sounds great

We're not talking about good faith.

[ChumpDumper]

Okay.


I disagree.

Mistakes happen. Policemen accidentally shoot innocent people. When it's not an accident, they are investigated and, if warranted, indicted, tried, and punished (if found guilty). Doctors accidentally kill people all the time...albeit, in many cases, in an attempt to save an already dying person. When it's not an accident, they are investigated and, if warranted, indicted, tried, and punished.

Executions, on the other hand, usually only occur after years and years of appeals and opportunities for the truth to come out. If, after all that, it doesn't, I'm more inclined to believe the truth was willfully and intentionally withheld by someone -- and that warrants an investigation and holding someone responsible.

Sure you're inclined to believe -- but what if you are wrong?

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...7fa_fact_grann

A very long article, but very telling in many ways.

[Blake]

We're not talking about good faith.

I misread your reply to CD about 'good faith'.

I'd agree if there is sufficient evidence that a prosecutor has fudged evidence then a special prosecutor, [maybe from the state or federal level] should be brought in to bring forth whatever charges should be necessary.

I don't agree with them being executed though......but then again, I don't really agree with anyone being executed at all to begin with.

[sabar]

There are already punishments for the crimes of forged evidence, obstruction of justice, etc.

Anyways, death can't be that much of a failure if prosecutors like to push for it so often. They're all elected or picked by higher ups that are elected. Clearly the people that they represent enjoy having it as a tool of revenge against the guilty.

I think the state executing its own citizens is an offensive notion, but on the other hand the guilty party has broken it's contract with society and forfeits their rights.

[admiralsnackbar]

We're not talking about good faith.

Why shouldn't we? Aren't mistakes mistakes, whether they be malicious and intentional or perfectly accidental?

[DarkReign]

@ Yoni

I wouldnt draw a parallel with state execution and abortion on my worst day. The only thing those two have in common is their moral implications. Thats it.

As it pertains to execution, it is just a personal preference of mine that it should only be reserved for extraordinary cases like treason, mass murderers and terrorists.

Selling state secrets to foreign en ies? Death upon conviction.

Pick a mass murderer from the 20th century...you know who I am talking about. Berkowitz (sp?), Bundy, Gacey, Dahmer. Death upon conviction. (so its known, Manson does not qualify under these terms).

McVeigh, Osama, KSM, etc. Death upon conviction.

Beyond those extraordinary cases, I see no reason for a state death penalty. Too prone to error, even if that error rate is less than 2% its entirely too high. That means there are men who were pleading for their lives on a table in some penitentiary who were put to death for a crime they did not commit.

Punishing the prosecutor does not bring him back to life. What about his justice now? You want to further complicate this tangled web by now trying the prosecutor to even as far as killing him/her if impropriety is found on their behalf?!

If this were the system we had, we'd be killing more people than China in no time, what with all the deaths needed after someone tried a case too hard, or left a piece of evidence out, or didnt allow certain testimony to be heard, etc.

Our Courts would be built on rivers of blood. Not my kind of country, certainly not the one I was raised in.

[Blake]

Why shouldn't we? Aren't mistakes mistakes, whether they be malicious and intentional or perfectly accidental?

you think the death penalty should apply for prosecutors acting in good faith?
why?

[Spurminator]

When we start incarcerating prisoners inside of women's wombs, we can start comparing capital punishment and abortion.

[spursncowboys]

When we start incarcerating prisoners inside of women's wombs, we can start comparing capital punishment and abortion.

There cannot be a comparison. Two different things. One is murdered. The other is given a trial and sentenced to death for a heinous crime. The criminal has two chances to prove that their actions do not cons ute being put to death. The child is just murdered.

[Yonivore]

@ Yoni

I wouldnt draw a parallel with state execution and abortion on my worst day. The only thing those two have in common is their moral implications. Thats it.

When a botched abortion results in a living, but horribly injured fetus, what do you call what the abortionist does next? And, that happens quite a bit more than does execution of the innocent.

I think the parallel works because those who typically oppose capital punishment are strong supporters of abortion. I think it's a hypocritical position.

As it pertains to execution, it is just a personal preference of mine that it should only be reserved for extraordinary cases like treason, mass murderers and terrorists.

Selling state secrets to foreign en ies? Death upon conviction.

Pick a mass murderer from the 20th century...you know who I am talking about. Berkowitz (sp?), Bundy, Gacey, Dahmer. Death upon conviction. (so its known, Manson does not qualify under these terms).

McVeigh, Osama, KSM, etc. Death upon conviction.

Beyond those extraordinary cases, I see no reason for a state death penalty. Too prone to error, even if that error rate is less than 2% its entirely too high. That means there are men who were pleading for their lives on a table in some penitentiary who were put to death for a crime they did not commit.

Kill 1, kill 100, I don't see the difference. Where's your line for the most heinous criminal?

Punishing the prosecutor does not bring him back to life. What about his justice now? You want to further complicate this tangled web by now trying the prosecutor to even as far as killing him/her if impropriety is found on their behalf?!

If this were the system we had, we'd be killing more people than China in no time, what with all the deaths needed after someone tried a case too hard, or left a piece of evidence out, or didnt allow certain testimony to be heard, etc.

Our Courts would be built on rivers of blood. Not my kind of country, certainly not the one I was raised in.

Now, you're just building straw men.

Punishing the murderer doesn't bring back the victim, either. But, it is justice. And, a prosecutor that would callously allow an innocent person to be executed is no better than the murderer executed for committing a capital crime.

[ploto]

...those who typically oppose capital punishment are strong supporters of abortion.

Just as many claim to be pro-life yet strongly support the death penalty.

[boutons_deux]

"Aren't mistakes mistakes, whether they be malicious and intentional or perfectly accidental"

a "malicious and intentional mistake" ?

[ChumpDumper]

Just as many claim to be pro-life yet strongly support the death penalty.

All life is precious unless I decide it isn't.

[Yonivore]

Just as many claim to be pro-life yet strongly support the death penalty.

Because we recognize the difference between an innocent child and a murderer.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, more like bringing up abortion unsolicited in a death penalty thread makes you feel like you actually care about life.

[panic giraffe]

Because we recognize the difference between an innocent child and a murderer.

so i'm curious, how do soldiers fit in on the "pro-life" spectrum?

i mean i've always been amazed as how the average "pro-lifer" i meet is also rabidly for the death penalty, but what about those who kill in a warzone are they still a murderer?

[ChumpDumper]

I told you that all life is precious except when I decide it isn't.

Jeez.

[spursncowboys]

Just as many claim to be pro-life yet strongly support the death penalty.

Yeah it's ridiculous how pro-life people can be for the murder of an innocent child and at the same time be in favor of killing someone who is not innocent and made the decision knowing before hand what they do might put them to death.

[spursncowboys]

so i'm curious, how do soldiers fit in on the "pro-life" spectrum?

i mean i've always been amazed as how the average "pro-lifer" i meet is also rabidly for the death penalty, but what about those who kill in a warzone are they still a murderer?

Do you think soldiers are murderers?

[ploto]

Yeah it's ridiculous how pro-life people can be for the murder of an innocent child and at the same time be in favor of killing someone who is not innocent and made the decision knowing before hand what they do might put them to death.

You might want to re-read what you wrote.

I don't know anyone who calls themselves pro-life but who supports abortion rights-- no one. I do know many people who call themselves pro-life and yet strongly support the death penalty.

If you are pro-life then you are pro all-life -- it is not your place to decide which lives are valuable and which are not. You can not support the state executing anyone and still call yourself pro-life. You simply can't.

I oppose abortion and the death penalty. At least my views are consistent.

[MannyIsGod]

Being too expensive should not be a reason for not using the death penalty.

No - just any progressive initiative you're against.

[spursncowboys]

You might want to re-read what you wrote.

I don't know anyone who calls themselves pro-life but who supports abortion rights-- no one. I do know many people who call themselves pro-life and yet strongly support the death penalty.

If you are pro-life then you are pro all-life -- it is not your place to decide which lives are valuable and which are not. You can not support the state executing anyone and still call yourself pro-life. You simply can't.

I oppose abortion and the death penalty. At least my views are consistent.

Consistent with what? Pacifism? SOrry but I don't need a complete absolute view to justify what I think. I am pro-life because I don't believe we should be able to murder innocent children. I am also for executing because I believe there should be standards that our society should not allow to happen. That there are people in this world who should be taken out of our society. People on death row get a trial. Then, if found guilty, automatically get another trial. In reality it is about 4-5 trials lasting a little over 10 years. The law was made before they committed the crime. These people aren't innocent. It's not murder.