We Need RMJ Back

[chazley]

76% FT shooter in the playoffs. Our current SGs:

Hill is a 84% FT shooter in the playoffs
Manu is a 82% FT shooter in the playoffs

Neeeext...

touche. However, at the end of a close game you cannot only have two good FT shooters on the floor. In those spots Mason would have to step up.

[ElNono]

RMJ's defensive numbers will obviously be worse than normal. Our whole team wasn't nearly the defensive juggernaut it used to be. Like I said, I want him to be a poor man's Brent Barry, who also couldn't play a lick of defense, but the team defense was phenomenal during his time here and that covered him. This Spurs team is no longer a defensive juggernaut.

You can't be a defensive juggernaut when your players leak like a sieve. Since Bowen left, we have needed to improve that, not to keep the status quo. More reasons to let Roger go.

I told you, I cannot defend his playoff numbers. However, he will be a 8-9th man, and he has shown the ability to be clutch in the regular season. I have no doubt he could help us win a playoff game or two with his shooting, which for a potential 9th man would be huge.

If you can't defend his playoff numbers, why do you keep on bringing up his regular season numbers or his clutch ability in the regular season?
'ships are won in the postseason, and he has shown no ability whatsoever to be a contributing factor in those games. I don't know why we suddenly have to have faith that he will somehow show up now. Most importantly, you haven't backed up at all that:

1) He will suddenly be a factor
2) He is better than any of our current SG and thus deserving of floor time
3) He is inclined to be a 8th-9th man on a team

When you substantiate all that, then we can actually break it down.

At the end of the day, RMJ is 30 and this year was the last year he has the potential to get a big contract. To ask his agent to explore if he could get minutes on another team, while it might be somewhat selfish, would be necessary for a role player like himself to set himself up financially for the rest of his life. In no way can I blame him, especially when he earned relatively little before he joined the Spurs.

He didn't earn the minutes, period. It's a disservice to his teammates who busted their asses to be there. But I tell you what. Now he can get a full MLE type of contract and a role on a team that will use him thoroughly. Good for him. Farewell Roger!

[chazley]

lol...so now he goes from playing the Brent Barry role to being a poor man's Brent Barry.

Yes, elnono pointed out that Brent Barry was more important to the 05-07 Spurs championship teams than RMJ will be to any potential championship team. So if he is at least a poor man's Brent Barry, that would be a very good fit for us.

Basically, a poor man's Brent Barry is 38% from 3 and 8-9 pts a game. Mason can bring that.

[ElNono]

touche. However, at the end of a close game you cannot only have two good FT shooters on the floor. In those spots Mason would have to step up.

At the end of close games you want to have the superior defensive players that are also the superior free throw shooters. There's simply no room for RMJ in that scenario.

[benefactor]

JMcDonald_SAEN

Talked to Roger Mason today. Says he's heard from several teams, but #spurs aren't one of them. Chi, NY,Miami, and both LAs on list.

Spurs don't want his ass.

/thread

[ElNono]

No, Bonner to Horry comparison is nowhere close to RMJ/Barry comparison. You can't make up a comparison between two completely different players to disprove my comparison between two other different players. Also, Bonner is a much better shooter than Horry, just not as clutch. That's another subject though.

I will say you are bringing up some valid points though and I respect your opinion.

There is no RMJ/Barry comparison, period. We can look up Barry's numbers in the playoffs and RMJ can't hold a candle to him. And Barry was much more than a situational player. He played a good chunk of minutes in games, including the coveted backup PG position you mention RMJ can't play. You're simply comparing apples to oranges.

[ElNono]

Spurs don't want his ass.

/thread

lol

[chazley]

You can't be a defensive juggernaut when your players leak like a sieve. Since Bowen left, we have needed to improve that, not to keep the status quo. More reasons to let Roger go.

If you can't defend his playoff numbers, why do you keep on bringing up his regular season numbers or his clutch ability in the regular season?
'ships are won in the postseason, and he has shown no ability whatsoever to be a contributing factor in those games. I don't know why we suddenly have to have faith that he will somehow show up now. Most importantly, you haven't backed up at all that:

1) He will suddenly be a factor
2) He is better than any of our current SG and thus deserving of floor time
3) He is inclined to be a 8th-9th man on a team

When you substantiate all that, then we can actually break it down.

He didn't earn the minutes, period. It's a disservice to his teammates who busted their asses to be there. But I tell you what. Now he can get a full MLE type of contract and a role on a team that will use him thoroughly. Good for him. Farewell Roger!

We're basically repeating ourselves here trying to prove the same points over and over again, so I'll respond to this one last time.

1) His combined Spurs career averages of 38% from 3 and 9 PPG are enough to be a 8-9th man on a championship team.

2) He's not better than Ginobili obviously, but Hill is not strictly a SG. He can play SF on defense, and plays PG on both ends of the court also. So, yes, he is capable of giving us 15-20 minutes in a backup SG role and also playing in 3-guard lineups.

3) Again, I cannot defend his playoff resume. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've said he's shown potential in the regular season to be clutch. I believe during playoff games he can have 15-20 point games once or twice that can win us a playoff game.

4) Again about the trade thing, 30-year old NBA players have to look out for themselves at some point. By not getting PT, he was potentially costing himself multi-millions on his next contract. I cannot blame him, and neither can you. When he asked for a trade, the Spurs did not look like a contender, and to ask him to sit on the end of the bench and give up millions for a non-championship team would be selfish.

[chazley]

There is no RMJ/Barry comparison, period. We can look up Barry's numbers in the playoffs and RMJ can't hold a candle to him. And Barry was much more than a situational player. He played a good chunk of minutes in games, including the coveted backup PG position you mention RMJ can't play. You're simply comparing apples to oranges.

If you're going to only look up playoff numbers and not look at the whole picture, then you're being naive. He has literally gotten consistent minutes in a playoff game maybe 4 times during his Spurs career. To say there is no chance he can ever be good on the playoffs is not accurate.

When he got minutes in a playoff game, he was asked to do WAY too much because Tim was playing on one leg and Manu was out. In a setting where his role is defined as 15-20 minutes to come in and hit shots, and not do anything else but play solid defense, he would thrive.

Also, put Brent Barry on that 09 Spurs playoff team as a starter and ask him to do what RMJ was asked to do. He would look terrible too. However, in the role Barry was given, he thrived and was a valuable part of a championship team.

[Blackjack]

I wonder how much ink Vinny Del Negro would've got back in the day had SpursTalk been around . . .

[ElNono]

We're basically repeating ourselves here trying to prove the same points over and over again, so I'll respond to this one last time.

1) His combined Spurs career averages of 38% from 3 and 9 PPG are enough to be a 8-9th man on a championship team.

I'm actually waiting for you to substantiate that he wants to be the 8-9th man on a team, and that the reasons behind your belief that he will shoot 38% from 3 and 9 PPG in the playoffs. Because I look both at his history with our team and his playoffs averages and that's not what it says at all. We're really not going in any circles, you're simply avoiding to answer the questions.

2) He's not better than Ginobili obviously, but Hill is not strictly a SG. He can play SF on defense, and plays PG on both ends of the court also. So, yes, he is capable of giving us 15-20 minutes in a backup SG role and also playing in 3-guard lineups.

Hill cannot play SF on defense against the top teams in the league, which is, not surprisingly, the teams you meet in the playoffs. We've been attempting to address the SF conundrum for a long time now. We had Richard Jefferson last year, and he didn't work out. The 3 guard lineup was basically small-ball, which lost us more games than won us last season (if you even care to look at the numbers, that HarlemHeat provided kindly for us throughout the season). It's something to be avoided, not encouraged. Luckily, if we manage to sign up a guy like Splitter, we'll be able to get away from it more often. And even if we were to play a 3 guard lineup, that would include your 3 best guards: TP, Manu and Hill. Hill actually shoots the 3 ball better than RMJ during the playoffs, not to mention that even if not great, is the much better defender.

3) Again, I cannot defend his playoff resume. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've said he's shown potential in the regular season to be clutch. I believe during playoff games he can have 15-20 point games once or twice that can win us a playoff game.

So we should just take your gut feeling... because he hasn't been any of that historically... okaaayyy...

4) Again about the trade thing, 30-year old NBA players have to look out for themselves at some point. By not getting PT, he was potentially costing himself multi-millions on his next contract. I cannot blame him, and neither can you. When he asked for a trade, the Spurs did not look like a contender, and to ask him to sit on the end of the bench and give up millions for a non-championship team would be selfish.

I don't care what he was costing himself. I don't pay for tickets to watch the Spurs or the League Pass to see if RMJ is happy with his role or his minutes. He had his chances, and he simply blew it. There was no doubt whatsoever in anybody's mind that Hill was the superior player and he needed to get the minutes over RMJ. And the Spurs were actually on a decent run at the time. It was during the time when Manu was peaking, with wins over Orlando, the Cavs and the Lakers, before Manu received his extension.

[chazley]

I'm actually waiting for you to substantiate that he wants to be the 8-9th man on a team, and that the reasons behind your belief that he will shoot 38% from 3 and 9 PPG in the playoffs. Because I look both at his history with our team and his playoffs averages and that's not what it says at all. We're really not going in any circles, you're simply avoiding to answer the questions.



Hill cannot play SF on defense against the top teams in the league, which is, not surprisingly, the teams you meet in the playoffs. We've been attempting to address the SF conundrum for a long time now. We had Richard Jefferson last year, and he didn't work out. The 3 guard lineup was basically small-ball, which lost us more games than won us last season (if you even care to look at the numbers, that HarlemHeat provided kindly for us throughout the season). It's something to be avoided, not encouraged. Luckily, if we manage to sign up a guy like Splitter, we'll be able to get away from it more often. And even if we were to play a 3 guard lineup, that would include your 3 best guards: TP, Manu and Hill. Hill actually shoots the 3 ball better than RMJ during the playoffs, not to mention that even if not great, is the much better defender.



So we should just take your gut feeling... because he hasn't been any of that historically... okaaayyy...



I don't care what he was costing himself. I don't pay for tickets to watch the Spurs or the League Pass to see if RMJ is happy with his role or his minutes. He had his chances, and he simply blew it. There was no doubt whatsoever in anybody's mind that Hill was the superior player and he needed to get the minutes over RMJ. And the Spurs were actually on a decent run at the time. It was during the time when Manu was peaking, with wins over Orlando, the Cavs and the Lakers, before Manu received his extension.

I'm not avoiding any questions. RMJ in 09 playoffs was asked to do way too much being asked to be the 3rd best player on our team. Of course his numbers sucked, he's never gonna be the 3rd best player on a winning team. My reason behind the 9 pts and 38% from 3... those are his averages from his Spurs career.

TP/Manu/Hill don't space the floor enough in a 3-guard set. You have to have a shooter in there, aka RMJ. Also, there is a difference between 3-guard, 2 big lineup and a 3 guard-SF-big lineup. The 3guard/2big lineup was very successful for us at times this year.

Also, not my 'gut feeling' that he is capable of contributing as a 8-9th man on a playoff team. I'm using examples of regular season averages and clutchness he has shown as proof that he is capable of it.

Plus, RMJ asked for a trade before or during the all-star break when the Spurs looked like a first round exit at best, and some on this board were calling for us to tank. Manu didn't start going off until after the ASB.

[ElNono]

If you're going to only look up playoff numbers and not look at the whole picture, then you're being naive. He has literally gotten consistent minutes in a playoff game maybe 4 times during his Spurs career. To say there is no chance he can ever be good on the playoffs is not accurate.

He got over 20 MPG during 5 games in 08-09. That's consistent minutes. His production over those minutes simply didn't warrant that much time.
In 09-10 he didn't get the minutes simply because there was a better player in front of him. That player is still in the roster, which makes RMJ simply not needed.

When he got minutes in a playoff game, he was asked to do WAY too much because Tim was playing on one leg and Manu was out. In a setting where his role is defined as 15-20 minutes to come in and hit shots, and not do anything else but play solid defense, he would thrive.

He can't play solid defense. We already have two players that plays in his position, play better defense than him, shoot better than him, can also fill in the backup PG spot that he can't fill in. There's simply no room for RMJ in this Spurs team as a playoff contributor (or otherwise, really)

Also, put Brent Barry on that 09 Spurs playoff team as a starter and ask him to do what RMJ was asked to do. He would look terrible too. However, in the role Barry was given, he thrived and was a valuable part of a championship team.

Barry was our backup PG for quite a while, something RMJ can't even dream of doing. And while I don't think Barry would have avoided us to be eliminated by Dallas in 09, I'm absolutely positively sure he would have contributed much more than RMJ. In 4 playoffs runs with the Spurs, Barry only shot less than 40% from 3 point land in only one season, posting averages of 50% and 46% in the playoffs in two of the runs. Again, numbers RMJ can't hold a candle to.

[chazley]

He got over 20 MPG during 5 games in 08-09. That's consistent minutes. His production over those minutes simply didn't warrant that much time.
In 09-10 he didn't get the minutes simply because there was a better player in front of him. That player is still in the roster, which makes RMJ simply not needed.

He can't play solid defense. We already have two players that plays in his position, play better defense than him, shoot better than him, can also fill in the backup PG spot that he can't fill in. There's simply no room for RMJ in this Spurs team as a playoff contributor (or otherwise, really)

Barry was our backup PG for quite a while, something RMJ can't even dream of doing. And while I don't think Barry would have avoided us to be eliminated by Dallas in 09, I'm absolutely positively sure he would have contributed much more than RMJ. In 4 playoffs runs with the Spurs, Barry only shot less than 40% from 3 point land in only one season, posting averages of 50% and 46% in the playoffs in two of the runs. Again, numbers RMJ can't hold a candle to.

Sorry, but the Mavs defense was keyed on Mason and never left his hip because we had no firepower in 09 and they let TP and a limping TD try to beat us. Same thing would've happened if Barry played on that team in 09, and he would've posted similar numbers. Plus, Barry had the luxury of having wide-open 3s his entire Spurs career, playing with the best 3-headed monster of the decade in their prime. Mason never had that luxury. This year we will have alot more firepower though, and I feel that in a non-backup PG role, he can shoot well above 40% from 3.

Again, there's always a spot on the floor for a 40% 3pt shooter.

Also again, his 20 MPG were spent with someone attached on his hip. He's not skilled enough to be the 3rd best player on any NBA team. He was asked to be that on the 09 Spurs playoff team. In a supporting role where he can just hit shots, he will play alot better.

[ElNono]

I'm not avoiding any questions. RMJ in 09 playoffs was asked to do way too much being asked to be the 3rd best player on our team. Of course his numbers sucked, he's never gonna be the 3rd best player on a winning team. My reason behind the 9 pts and 38% from 3 on the regular season... those are his averages from his Spurs career.

fify

You still haven't answered:
2) He is better than any of our current SG and thus deserving of floor time
3) He is inclined to be a 8th-9th man on a team

TP/Manu/Hill don't space the floor enough in a 3-guard set. You have to have a shooter in there, aka RMJ. Also, there is a difference between 3-guard, 2 big lineup and a 3 guard-SF-big lineup. The 3guard/2big lineup was very successful for us at times this year.

But RMJ has not demonstrated to be the better shooter. In the playoffs:

RMJ: 32% 3PT shooter

Hill: 37% 3PT shooter
Ginobili: 37% 3PT shooter

Also, not my 'gut feeling' that he is capable of contributing as a 8-9th man on a playoff team. I'm using examples of regular season averages and clutchness he has shown as proof that he is capable of it.

Does not compute. His regular season averages are proof that he's a capable playoff contributor, even though his playoff averages do not substantiate this at all. Gotcha.

Plus, RMJ asked for a trade before or during the all-star break when the Spurs looked like a first round exit at best, and some on this board were calling for us to tank. Manu didn't start going off until after the ASB.

Still doesn't debunk the fact that he didn't earn his minutes, and that Hill was and still is the better player for earning those minutes.

[ElNono]

Sorry, but the Mavs defense was keyed on Mason and never left his hip because we had no firepower in 09 and they let TP and a limping TD try to beat us. Same thing would've happened if Barry played on that team in 09, and he would've posted similar numbers. Plus, Barry had the luxury of having wide-open 3s his entire Spurs career, playing with the best 3-headed monster of the decade in their prime. Mason never had that luxury. This year we will have alot more firepower though, and I feel that in a non-backup PG role, he can shoot well above 40% from 3.

They sure left his hip to score at will over and around him. Now, I'm not going to say that Barry wouldn't have been the same thing defensively, but besides of Barry being the better shooter, he contributed in other ways, including running the backup PG position. Something you agree RMJ could never possibly do.

Again, there's always a spot on the floor for a 40% 3pt shooter.

He's a 32% 3pt shooter when it matters.

Also again, his 20 MPG were spent with someone attached on his hip. He's not skilled enough to be the 3rd best player on any NBA team. He was asked to be that on the 09 Spurs playoff team. In a supporting role where he can just hit shots, he will play alot better.

Doesn't matter. That was not his last season. When Ginobili came back and he was given a chance not being the 3rd best player on the team, he got outplayed for the position by Hill.

[chazley]

El Nono, no doubt you're a fine poster, but you're not taking into consideration any of the facts I am providing and instead are recycling things you have already said over and over again. I get the fact he has not produced in the playoffs. Again, I gave reasons for this, and you failed to respond to those.

Is he better than Hill or Ginobili? No. Are Hill or Ginobili capable of playing any one of 3 positions for at least a short stint during any game? Yes. Neither player is restricted to playing SG and neither of them will play SG exclusively the whole game.

Hill's 3pt% is going to be higher than Mason's b/c he gets a majority of those 3s on wide open corner 3s. Mason in 08-09 rarely saw an open 3 in the playoffs because he couldn't play off the big 3, and in 09-10 didn't get playoff minutes because he was injured, and therefore was ineffective.

[chazley]

Also, we're talking about a 15-20 minute player who's role is not to come in and be a lockdown defender. It's to open up the floor on offense. When he plays, he will in turn be guarding bench players from the opposing team.

You expect way too much out of a 8-9th man. You're arguing that he's not a player of Hill's/Ginobili's caliber. Of course he isn't. I want him to play the role of a spot up shooter and maybe come off a few screens, and give good effort on the defensive end. Give us 15-20 good minutes. The way our roster is shaping up, Hill/Gino/Anderson are going to be asked to play alot of positions because we don't have a solid backup SF/PG. There will be minutes at that backup SG spot.

[SenorSpur]

Brent Barry was a WAY superior shooter than RMJ ever was in the playoffs. Brent Barry also was not the '8th-9th' guy off the bench...

I'd even settle for the current 2010 version of NBATV Brent Barry, before RMJ. Come to think of it, I'd also take Brent's dad, Rick over RMJ, too.

[ElNono]

El Nono, no doubt you're a fine poster, but you're not taking into consideration any of the facts I am providing and instead are recycling things you have already said over and over again. I get the fact he has not produced in the playoffs. Again, I gave reasons for this, and you failed to respond to those.

I've addresses every single post you made. Please let me know what part you think I've not addressed and I'll be happy to. In the meantime, I would ask you to reciprocate, and answer the parts you still have not addressed from my posts, namely:

3) He is inclined to be a 8th-9th man on a team

Is he better than Hill or Ginobili? No. Are Hill or Ginobili capable of playing any one of 3 positions for at least a short stint during any game? Yes. Neither player is restricted to playing SG and neither of them will play SG exclusively the whole game.

Considering TP plays nearly 33 mpg, Hill or Manu only have to fill in for 15 mins on the backup PG spot. Neither Manu or Hill can really play consistent minutes at the SF spot (at least not against teams that matter), so I would say that yeah, Manu and Hill will basically play all the SG spot minutes out there. Even Tony has filled in on the SG spot at times with Hill running the point. The only place I see for a one-trick-pony like Mason is on a situational play, but again, Hill is actually the better shooter, so he can definitely fill that role.

Hill's 3pt% is going to be higher than Mason's b/c he gets a majority of those 3s on wide open corner 3s. Mason in 08-09 rarely saw an open 3 in the playoffs because he couldn't play off the big 3, and in 09-10 didn't get playoff minutes because he was injured, and therefore was ineffective.

Mason played with the big 3 in the past season without being injured and Hill simply played better and shot better (FWIW, Mason actually played in more games than Hill last season, albeit less minutes. That said, almost 20 mpg is nothing to sneeze at).

[ElNono]

Also, we're talking about a 15-20 minute player who's role is not to come in and be a lockdown defender. It's to open up the floor on offense. When he plays, he will in turn be guarding bench players from the opposing team.

You expect way too much out of a 8-9th man. You're arguing that he's not a player of Hill's/Ginobili's caliber. Of course he isn't. I want him to play the role of a spot up shooter and maybe come off a few screens, and give good effort on the defensive end. Give us 15-20 good minutes. The way our roster is shaping up, Hill/Gino/Anderson are going to be asked to play alot of positions because we don't have a solid backup SF/PG. There will be minutes at that backup SG spot.

You simply haven't established that Mason wants to be on a 8th-9th man role. Please do tell me where you get this idea from. 5 months ago Mason wanted more floor time.
Also, a 8th-9th man doesn't see 15-20 minutes on the floor. Not when you have Ginobili-Hill in front of you (Manu 25 mpg, hill 33 mpg.. that breaks down to 48 mins for SG and 10 mins for backup PG)

[Blackjack]

This thread is on its way to 7 pages. ... Vinny Del Negro is rolling over in his grave.

[chazley]

I've never seen Mason demand to be a starter. You're asking me to prove something that is impossible to answer unless I asked RMJ personally. He asked to get traded because he was the 12th man in a contract year at that point. You should have to prove to me that he wouldn't accept coming off the bench, especially on a team where Manu comes off the bench. Plus, you're assuming Hill/Manu both play 82 games, and Tony plays 82 games at 38 minutes per game given your numbers. There's also minutes at SF that I expect Hill/Manu might take. Plus, like I've mentioned, I expect us to play some 3-guard lineups this year which would open up even more minutes at the guard position. In the playoffs, 10-15 minutes for Mason would be good, and up to 20 during the regular season, even more than that if he's hot.

[ElNono]

I've never seen Mason demand to be a starter.

I never claimed he asked for that.

Mason played nearly 20 mpg last season, before and after his injury, and he played 79 games overall. He played more early in the season, with the big 3, and performing worse than Hill, who eventually claimed his spot.

You're asking me to prove something that is impossible to answer unless I asked RMJ personally.

Which proves the fact that you're building your entire case on something you don't even know that Mason would be willing to do.

He asked to get traded because he was the 12th man in a contract year at that point. You should have to prove to me that he wouldn't accept coming off the bench, especially on a team where Manu comes off the bench.

I think he would want to come off the bench, but not behind Ginobili or Hill, which would basically be the same situation he was in last season. There simply isn't enough minutes for him for what he brings to the team.

Plus, you're assuming Hill/Manu both play 82 games, and Tony plays 82 games at 38 minutes per game given your numbers.

No, I'm assuming that they take the bulk of the games and minutes, which is indeed what happens. Those numbers I posted are indeed the regular season averages for TP, Manu and Hill. So yeah, that's the minutes they play. Those numbers actually increase during the playoffs (at least in Manu's case) which actually mean less minutes for Roger. Furthermore, it would be a disservice to hand out millions for regular-season-only players. Might aswell use the kids we drafted as filler for those games where those guys can't play.

There's also minutes at SF that I expect Hill/Manu might take. Plus, like I've mentioned, I expect us to play some 3-guard lineups this year which would open up even more minutes at the guard position.

That position was a lock for RJ last season, except when he moved to the cameo PF position. We shouldn't need to play any more cameo PF if Splitter signs up and Blair keeps on improving. We do have a problem on the SF spot, which I expect the team to address if we can manage to S&T for RJ. If we don't then we'll have a hole there. RMJ is not the answer to that hole though.
And yeah, maybe Manu/Hill will play SF against the Timberwolves or the Clippers. That doesn't mean we need to pay RMJ to be the third guard against those teams. They simply won't play SF against playoff teams because we would effectively giving the other team a huge advantage, and they're simply more effective playing somewhere else.

In the playoffs, 10-15 minutes for Mason would be good, and up to 20 during the regular season, even more than that if he's hot.

In some other team, sure.

[tuncaboylu]

@Chazley, Why don't we give a chance to our new draftee James Anderson instead of Mason tihs year? We know what RMJ can provide us next year and it's not too much as it seems. So we have a new guy with high potential and maybe(most probably) he will be a better player than RMJ in the future. So why should we sign a long term contract with RMJ and take the chance of James?

The only benefit of RMJ would be a sign&trade to Spurs. It seems there are some teams who want to sign him, we can get a swingman which they don't use in exchange of RMJ.