Top 10 Players of ALL-Time

[NewcastleKEG]

IMO it really comes down to what is your measuring stick. For me it's total MVP's: Finals & Regular Season combined. It's fair because it equals out the team mate factor. Superior team mates might have gotten you to the Finals (compared to a rival who had lesser team mates/front office) but you proved you were the best player on the biggest stage. RARELY does the losing team have the better/best player.

The reason I don't like statistics is because of Kobe vs Dominique Wilkins. Wilk has as good if not superior numbers and had no team mates whatsoever in his career. I assume he is one example of why MJ put Kobe as simple a ''Top 10 guard of All Time''

I also don't think you can disregard off the court issues which many times spill onto the court as we saw with Gasol. Kobe has had 3 instances in his career that should be considered when debating his place in NBA history

1) Fued with Shaq. They easily win 2 or more les together BUT Kobe was willing to break it up for his own glory. You can't make the argument he just wanted the best for the Lakers long term because he was willing to leave LA as a free agent

2) Quitting in Game 7 of the Suns series. Classic Kobe sending message to the front office and his ''team mates'' that he's had enough and you can't do anything about it. He knew his team would get destroyed in the next Round if they won that Game 7 and he wasn't willing or man enough to take that beating so he quit.

3) The Sweeps & Missing Playoffs: Lack of leadership. Magic was shocked at the lack of effort and mental toughness of this team. How can a so called ''Top 10 Player of All Time" or Top 5 on your list, let that happen? If Kobe is getting all this credit for winning with Shaq & Gasol then he must also take the blame when he as the franchise player allows such things to occur

So ultimately, no I don't think Kobe wins 6 rings with Pippen. History and logic shows that Kobe would find a way through personal feuds or selfishness to sabotage it. IMO Kobe is much like Brett Favre in the NFL. He is a media darling (can do no wrong) and has all the physical skills but his motives are more than JUST WIN

History will show that the peak of Kobe's career was the Game 7 win last year in the Finals. His statistics and accomplishments will begin to decline just like Shaq. Luckily for him he plays for the Yankees of the NBA so he will (As he has the day he joined the league) be surrounded with the top talent in the league. This is also the highest he will rank on these ''All Time lists'' because just like Shaq, the casual fan will remember less and less of Kobe over the years and the media will jump onto the next flashy players bandwagon.

It's a Catch 22 for Kobe. He won't win another le without another Gasol'ish trade but yet that younger player will want the MVP. If the Lakers trade for Howard, Dwight is gonna do all that's necessary to win the MVP. So like I said, last year was the peak of Kobe's career and the peak of his position on the All Time lists. The longer he sticks around the more he will lessen his legacy just like Derek Jeter.

[Amaso]

IMO it really comes down to what is your measuring stick. For me it's total MVP's: Finals & Regular Season combined. It's fair because it equals out the team mate factor. Superior team mates might have gotten you to the Finals (compared to a rival who had lesser team mates/front office) but you proved you were the best player on the biggest stage. RARELY does the losing team have the better/best player.

The reason I don't like statistics is because of Kobe vs Dominique Wilkins. Wilk has as good if not superior numbers and had no team mates whatsoever in his career. I assume he is one example of why MJ put Kobe as simple a ''Top 10 guard of All Time''

I also don't think you can disregard off the court issues which many times spill onto the court as we saw with Gasol. Kobe has had 3 instances in his career that should be considered when debating his place in NBA history

1) Fued with Shaq. They easily win 2 or more les together BUT Kobe was willing to break it up for his own glory. You can't make the argument he just wanted the best for the Lakers long term because he was willing to leave LA as a free agent

2) Quitting in Game 7 of the Suns series. Classic Kobe sending message to the front office and his ''team mates'' that he's had enough and you can't do anything about it. He knew his team would get destroyed in the next Round if they won that Game 7 and he wasn't willing or man enough to take that beating so he quit.

3) The Sweeps & Missing Playoffs: Lack of leadership. Magic was shocked at the lack of effort and mental toughness of this team. How can a so called ''Top 10 Player of All Time" or Top 5 on your list, let that happen? If Kobe is getting all this credit for winning with Shaq & Gasol then he must also take the blame when he as the franchise player allows such things to occur

So ultimately, no I don't think Kobe wins 6 rings with Pippen. History and logic shows that Kobe would find a way through personal feuds or selfishness to sabotage it. IMO Kobe is much like Brett Favre in the NFL. He is a media darling (can do no wrong) and has all the physical skills but his motives are more than JUST WIN

History will show that the peak of Kobe's career was the Game 7 win last year in the Finals. His statistics and accomplishments will begin to decline just like Shaq. Luckily for him he plays for the Yankees of the NBA so he will (As he has the day he joined the league) be surrounded with the top talent in the league. This is also the highest he will rank on these ''All Time lists'' because just like Shaq, the casual fan will remember less and less of Kobe over the years and the media will jump onto the next flashy players bandwagon.

It's a Catch 22 for Kobe. He won't win another le without another Gasol'ish trade but yet that younger player will want the MVP. If the Lakers trade for Howard, Dwight is gonna do all that's necessary to win the MVP. So like I said, last year was the peak of Kobe's career and the peak of his position on the All Time lists. The longer he sticks around the more he will lessen his legacy just like Derek Jeter.

You make some good points, but like I said in another thread... non-laker fans are going to point out every "flaw" that happens that would hurt Kobe's legacy, and everyone here particularly is going to point to these things when they want to bump Kobe down the all-time list. He's the only player in today's game that has that legacy to try and diminish by your typical nba fan. He is hated by lots of fans, which just goes to show his greatness, so theres a bias that comes in when you're talking about rankings. No one hates Duncan, so there is no reason for trolls that post here(the majority here), to try and diminish his accomplishments.

I doubt Dominque Wilkin's stats are as good as Kobe's, and it's obvious by using the "eye" test that he's not even in the same stratosphere as Kobe.

As far as using off the court drama to determine someone's legacy, you are just proving my point that there's a bias in fans when it comes to ranking players. You are seriously lacking some nba knowledge. Kobe only missed the playoffs because he was injured that year as well as Odom(idk how you don't know that and are trying to argue with me about any sort of basketball debate). And if you remember, they had D-league players surrounding those two.

Duncan got swept by the suns last year, lost to the #8 seed; none of which is going to ruin his legacy when it's all said and done. And Shaq has done literally nothing in the league the past 5 years and that isn't going to hurt his legacy.

Kobe is a media darling? what?

So Kobe isn't going to win 6 rings if he was paired with Pippen in that same era, not because of his skill, but because he is going to ruin something off the court along the way? You do remember all of MJ's issues right? When did you become a Bull's fan, in this decade?

Either way, the more I think about it, I'd rather just lump #2-#10 in the same category, and would include MJ with them as the same calibur if it wouldn't cause a storm among everyone.

[ambchang]

I don't get how Kobe fan bois can compare individual player rankings by taking into account the 2nd best player on the team, and yet totally ignore compe ion. So which one is it? Other players matter, or other players not matter? Isiah Thomas had Joe Dumars as his 2nd best and won two championships against Jordan, Magic and Bird in their primes, does that make Isiah > that the other three? Why not take into account the defensive make-up and the coach of the team? Rick Barry won a championship with nobodies around him, where would he rank then? Havlicek won with Dave Cowens against some pretty weak compe ion, where does this put him?

Kobe fanbois just take what supports the argument of proping up Kobe, and ignores anything else. And when arguments go against them, they throw previous greats and Kobe's teammates under the bus. Just absolute de able behaviour.

[Amaso]

I don't get how Kobe fan bois can compare individual player rankings by taking into account the 2nd best player on the team, and yet totally ignore compe ion. So which one is it? Other players matter, or other players not matter? Isiah Thomas had Joe Dumars as his 2nd best and won two championships against Jordan, Magic and Bird in their primes, does that make Isiah > that the other three? Why not take into account the defensive make-up and the coach of the team? Rick Barry won a championship with nobodies around him, where would he rank then? Havlicek won with Dave Cowens against some pretty weak compe ion, where does this put him?

Kobe fanbois just take what supports the argument of proping up Kobe, and ignores anything else. And when arguments go against them, they throw previous greats and Kobe's teammates under the bus. Just absolute de able behaviour.

You obviously didn't read my other posts(i'm assuming you are talking about me), I said there's so many different variables that go into how players career's are looked back on, and how it's too hard to tell who is actually better than who... which is why I group players.

[ambchang]

I did read your other posts, and you group Kobe above Bird, using absolutely illogical and contradictory "variables" to evaluate them.

Using Kobe's and Odom's injury in 04-05 to dismiss them missing the playoffs is an easy way out. Both of them missed about 15 games that season, the 16 games that Kobe missed, the Lakers were 6-10, which is similar to their overall season record. Not mentioning that two of those losses came at the end of the season, when the Lakers were in full tank mode.

The misses of Kobe didn't just come when he is past his prime, like Duncan. He destroyed the Lakers dynasty (along with Shaq) during his prime, he had always has issues with his shot selection throughout his career, he performed poorly in big games when he had was the obvious leader on his team, he refused to shoot in a Game 7 vs. the Suns (for whatever reason), he was rumoured to clash frequently with teammates (Shaq, Bynum trade demand, Gasol) and his coach, he shot his team out of the finals to show he is the man against the underdog Pistons. All of these obvious flaws lines up.

I am not just talking about a guy who is acting like a jerk, I am talking about a guy who did some pretty stupid things and put personal glory above team success. Granted, he still won 5 rings, but they were due to some very crafty moves by the front office to make the last two possible, and everyone knows he rode Shaq's coattails to the first 2, possibly first 3.

[Killakobe81]

Pippen > Kobe. These are the facts

LOL density is not only a term used in physics ...

[Killakobe81]

The one consensus one I don't get is Bird over Duncan and O'Neal. There's nothing accomplishment-wise or statistically to suggest he was better than either.

And I've always had a hard time believing that Russell and Chamberlain are better than Duncan, O'Neal and Olajuwon. I'm not saying definitively they weren't, but I look at the era they played in and the compe ion they played against and it doesn't compare to the past thirty or so years. Give them the advantages of today's players and maybe they're as good now as they were then (not in terms of averages; advanced stats-wise), but I'm not convinced. Russell's lack of anything resembling an elite or even high level offensive game makes him being supposedly better even more questionable.

The only players I can look at and come to the conclusion that they were definitively better than Duncan and O'Neal, are Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar and Johnson. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I have a hard time ranking pre-80s players. So excluding pre-80s players, I'm going to go with . . .

1) Jordan
2) Abdul-Jabbar
3) Johnson
4) Duncan
5) O'Neal
6) Bryant
7) Bird
8) Olajuwon
9) K. Malone
10) James

It may be pre-mature to put James there, but he's like Duncan eight seasons in (minus the championships, of course). He's just too damned dominant statistically to be ignored and it's obvious he's going to go down as the greatest ever at his position. You could make a case for M. Malone, Garnett, Wade and a few others at 9 and 10, but for me, K. Malone's longevity at an elite level gives him the edge.

I like James at 10 but I wont list him until he rings ...As i have said on other threads he has an "outside shot" at #1. Thing is I did not need stats to get to the same conclusion you can just watch Lebron and see he is special.

[Killakobe81]

I did read your other posts, and you group Kobe above Bird, using absolutely illogical and contradictory "variables" to evaluate them.

Using Kobe's and Odom's injury in 04-05 to dismiss them missing the playoffs is an easy way out. Both of them missed about 15 games that season, the 16 games that Kobe missed, the Lakers were 6-10, which is similar to their overall season record. Not mentioning that two of those losses came at the end of the season, when the Lakers were in full tank mode.

The misses of Kobe didn't just come when he is past his prime, like Duncan. He destroyed the Lakers dynasty (along with Shaq) during his prime, he had always has issues with his shot selection throughout his career, he performed poorly in big games when he had was the obvious leader on his team, he refused to shoot in a Game 7 vs. the Suns (for whatever reason), he was rumoured to clash frequently with teammates (Shaq, Bynum trade demand, Gasol) and his coach, he shot his team out of the finals to show he is the man against the underdog Pistons. All of these obvious flaws lines up.

I am not just talking about a guy who is acting like a jerk, I am talking about a guy who did some pretty stupid things and put personal glory above team success. Granted, he still won 5 rings, but they were due to some very crafty moves by the front office to make the last two possible, and everyone knows he rode Shaq's coattails to the first 2, possibly first 3.

LOL Bird over Kobe ...

[DMC]

blah blah blah kobe blah blah kobe blah blah kobe blah blah rings blah blah kobe. Rinse and repeat.

[Josepatches_]

dirk is top20 no doubt

then again sooner or later must make way for lebron....in the top20....

If Dirk is top20 then Lebron is top20

LeBron>Dirk

[Amaso]

I did read your other posts, and you group Kobe above Bird, using absolutely illogical and contradictory "variables" to evaluate them.

Using Kobe's and Odom's injury in 04-05 to dismiss them missing the playoffs is an easy way out. Both of them missed about 15 games that season, the 16 games that Kobe missed, the Lakers were 6-10, which is similar to their overall season record. Not mentioning that two of those losses came at the end of the season, when the Lakers were in full tank mode.

The misses of Kobe didn't just come when he is past his prime, like Duncan. He destroyed the Lakers dynasty (along with Shaq) during his prime, he had always has issues with his shot selection throughout his career, he performed poorly in big games when he had was the obvious leader on his team, he refused to shoot in a Game 7 vs. the Suns (for whatever reason), he was rumoured to clash frequently with teammates (Shaq, Bynum trade demand, Gasol) and his coach, he shot his team out of the finals to show he is the man against the underdog Pistons. All of these obvious flaws lines up.

I am not just talking about a guy who is acting like a jerk, I am talking about a guy who did some pretty stupid things and put personal glory above team success. Granted, he still won 5 rings, but they were due to some very crafty moves by the front office to make the last two possible, and everyone knows he rode Shaq's coattails to the first 2, possibly first 3.

Yes cause averaging something like 28/6/6 over those 3 championship years is riding the coattails of someone. Kobe was the closer of that team, that's where alot of his legacy will be remembered from.

Every superstar clashes with teammates, I don't see how that makes someone better than someone else.

And like I said in my earlier post, I usually consider Bird to be in that 2nd tier group, but I just don't think his career adds up to the likes of Magic, Kareem, or Kobe... who all have a multiple ring advantage over him.

[dirk4mvp]

LOL Bird over Kobe ...

There is virtually zero argument to put Kobe above Bird.

[Amaso]

There is virtually zero argument to put Kobe above Bird.

notsureifsrs

[dirk4mvp]

there's a reason most all time lists have Bird above Kobe.


Kobe fanboys are pathetic.

[Kyle Orton]

Kobe over Bird

[Amaso]

there's a reason most all time lists have Bird above Kobe.


Kobe fanboys are pathetic.

Most all time lists haven't been updated. Kobe winning his last 2 championships has moved up his ranking from ~#10 before to whatever most people want to put him now.

[dirk4mvp]

Oh so because teaming up with an all star big man and being drug back from irrelevancy to win 2 les, 1 in which he shot 6-24 in the game 7 puts him above Bird? That makes sense.

[Amaso]

Oh so because teaming up with an all star big man and being drug back from irrelevancy to win 2 les, 1 in which he shot 6-24 in the game 7 puts him above Bird? That makes sense.

I'm pretty sure Bird shot like 32% in a game 7 as well. Not to mention Kobe has 2 more rings.

[NewcastleKEG]

You make some good points, but like I said in another thread... non-laker fans are going to point out every "flaw" that happens that would hurt Kobe's legacy, and everyone here particularly is going to point to these things when they want to bump Kobe down the all-time list. He's the only player in today's game that has that legacy to try and diminish by your typical nba fan. He is hated by lots of fans, which just goes to show his greatness, so theres a bias that comes in when you're talking about rankings. No one hates Duncan, so there is no reason for trolls that post here(the majority here), to try and diminish his accomplishments.

I doubt Dominque Wilkin's stats are as good as Kobe's, and it's obvious by using the "eye" test that he's not even in the same stratosphere as Kobe.

As far as using off the court drama to determine someone's legacy, you are just proving my point that there's a bias in fans when it comes to ranking players. You are seriously lacking some nba knowledge. Kobe only missed the playoffs because he was injured that year as well as Odom(idk how you don't know that and are trying to argue with me about any sort of basketball debate). And if you remember, they had D-league players surrounding those two.

Duncan got swept by the suns last year, lost to the #8 seed; none of which is going to ruin his legacy when it's all said and done. And Shaq has done literally nothing in the league the past 5 years and that isn't going to hurt his legacy.

Kobe is a media darling? what?

So Kobe isn't going to win 6 rings if he was paired with Pippen in that same era, not because of his skill, but because he is going to ruin something off the court along the way? You do remember all of MJ's issues right? When did you become a Bull's fan, in this decade?

Either way, the more I think about it, I'd rather just lump #2-#10 in the same category, and would include MJ with them as the same calibur if it wouldn't cause a storm among everyone.

- Kobe & Wilkins (Keep in mind Wilkins played til he was 39 so his averages should be EVEN better)
PPG: 25.3 vs 24.8 - Kobe
TRB: 5.3 vs 6.7 - Z
APG: 4.7 vs 2.5 - Kobe
SPG: 1.5 vs 1.3 - Kobe
BPG: 0.5 vs 0.6 - Z
TOV: 2.9 vs 2.5 - Z
FG%: .45 vs .46 - Z

So why is Kobe better because ESPN tells you so? I'll listen to MJ, he faced both and there is a reason he rated Kobe as simply a ''Top 10 guard ever''

- 2005 Lakers were 3-19 to end the season and Kobe played in 20 of those games. How does an elite player allow that happen? That's just MIND BOGGLING

- Kobe had Odom & Caron Butler on that team. D-Leaguers?

- MJ's issues were gambling. Unless you believe he was forced to retire in '94 because of this, then MJ's off the court issues never spilled over to the court

- It's not fair to compare anyone to MJ. But yeah I have a hard time believing Kobe would win 6 rings when Jordan has more playoff game winning ASSISTS than Kobe has baskets. Kobe is and always will be a selfish player that's why his production always declines in the Finals. Look at the Shaq years and Kobe's statistics either decline compared to the rest of the playoffs or he can't match Shaq's increase.

Jordan IS the Bulls
Duncan IS the Spurs

How many rings would Kobe have if he stayed on the Hornets?..... Chances are Zero. He would be the Dominque Wilkins and nothing more. When he doesn't have a Top3 Post Player on his roster, Kobe flames out or misses the playoffs all together.

[Texas_Ranger]

^
What he said!

[ambchang]

Yes cause averaging something like 28/6/6 over those 3 championship years is riding the coattails of someone. Kobe was the closer of that team, that's where alot of his legacy will be remembered from.

First off, it was 25/6/5 through those three years.
Second, the offense and defense was clearly centered around Shaq back in those days.
Third, the entire league was trying to stop Shaq, not Kobe, by signing all these oversized talentless big (to no avail)
Fourth, Shaq actually finished similar to Kobe in clutch statistics in 00, 01 and 02. 00 vs. Portland, Shaq dunked the ball (courtesy of a Kobe pass), vs. Kings, Horry nailed the clutch shot, vs. Spurs in 04, Fisher nailed the turnaround. The only game I could think of that Kobe took over was a playoff game vs. the Spurs when Shaq fouled out. That’s it.

Every superstar clashes with teammates, I don't see how that makes someone better than someone else.

In fact, I can’t think of another superstar in the top 10 who ran the best/2nd best player out of town.
Duncan didn’t. Jordan didn’t run Pippen out of town, Magic didn’t run Kareem out of town and vice versa, Isiah didn’t run Dumars out of town, Hakeem didn’t run Otis Thorpe/Drexler out of town, Wilt didn’t even care about basketball to run anyone out of town, Russell didn’t run Cousy out of town, Moses didn’t run Dr. J out of town, Shaq just got out of town with Penny, Kobe and Wade. No, can’t think of one.

And like I said in my earlier post, I usually consider Bird to be in that 2nd tier group, but I just don't think his career adds up to the likes of Magic, Kareem, or Kobe... who all have a multiple ring advantage over him.

Funny how Bird did in fact beat Magic AND Kareem on the same team with McHale and Parish. While McHale and Parish aren’t chopped liver, I struggle to understand how Bird, who’s career couldn’t add up to Magic and Kareem, could actually beat them in a seven game series with two guys who are so far down the line that they don’t even factor into the discussion.
And rings advantage? So what is this now, does teammates matter or not? You just said Kobe only had Pau Gasol and ignored compe ion, and now you are saying rings is a big advantage, and totally ignored the fact that Magic had Kareem, and Kareem had Magic, two players you said were clearly a strung above Bird.

I'm pretty sure Bird shot like 32% in a game 7 as well. Not to mention Kobe has 2 more rings.

Kobe didn’t just shoot 32% in A game 7 (he actually shot 25%, and somehow won the finals MVP), he shot a combined 35% in 5 elimination games over the last 4 years. I can understand how players can have a bad game at an important time, it happens all the time, but to consistently throw in bad shooting performances at the most critical moment is a huge black mark.
So 2 more rings is the argument now? Did Bird have Shaq for three of his rings? Did Bird have another top 10 player on his team for any of the three rings? Did Kobe have compe ion like the 6ers, Lakers and Pistons of the 80s?

[JamStone]

Couple things...

-Larry Bird > Kobe Bryant. There is a small argument using total rings, but it's not very strong. Larry Bird was the best player in the league right before Jordan started to dominate. He's one of I believe 6 players to have won multiple League MVPs and multiple Finals MVPs. Michael, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, and Russell (assuming he'd have won a couple Finals MVPs during his run). That's greatness. After Michael, Kareem, and Wilt, I believe Bird is up there with Magic and anyone else as next in line among the all time greats. Kobe is great but Larry is the in the conversation of top 5 players ever. Kobe is in the conversation of top 10 players ever.


-Comparing Kobe to Dominique is fine if you're just using statistics and statistics only. Greatness goes beyond just statistics. And for the record, Dominique's stats compare favorably to any of the all time great perimeter scorers after Michael and Larry Bird. Winning usually is part of the distinction of what makes a great player great.

If we acknowledge Kobe as similar to Dominique based on stats, then we could say that Patrick Ewing and Bob McAdoo were just as good as Tim Duncan. , Charles Barkley put up similar numbers to Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Do we put those two at the same level? The distinction is winning. You can wax rhapsodic all you want about who had better teammates or who had greater or lesser compe ion and some of it might be completely valid, but it's still all hypothetical. You can't take away who they played with or played against. Winning is still winning, if you win with 5 HOF teammates or win with a team full of smurfs. Dominique had a great career, especially statistically. No one would compare Bob McAdoo to Tim Duncan. It's pretty silly to compare Nique to Kobe.

[picc84]

Not having Kobe over Bird and Duncan makes sense. Both were better peak-wise and have more individual accomplishments.

Not having Kobe in a top 10 list is fishy.

[lefty]

Couple things...

-Larry Bird > Kobe Bryant. There is a small argument using total rings, but it's not very strong. Larry Bird was the best player in the league right before Jordan started to dominate. He's one of I believe 6 players to have won multiple League MVPs and multiple Finals MVPs. Michael, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, and Russell (assuming he'd have won a couple Finals MVPs during his run). That's greatness. After Michael, Kareem, and Wilt, I believe Bird is up there with Magic and anyone else as next in line among the all time greats. Kobe is great but Larry is the in the conversation of top 5 players ever. Kobe is in the conversation of top 10 players ever.


-Comparing Kobe to Dominique is fine if you're just using statistics and statistics only. Greatness goes beyond just statistics. And for the record, Dominique's stats compare favorably to any of the all time great perimeter scorers after Michael and Larry Bird. Winning usually is part of the distinction of what makes a great player great.

If we acknowledge Kobe as similar to Dominique based on stats, then we could say that Patrick Ewing and Bob McAdoo were just as good as Tim Duncan. , Charles Barkley put up similar numbers to Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Do we put those two at the same level? The distinction is winning. You can wax rhapsodic all you want about who had better teammates or who had greater or lesser compe ion and some of it might be completely valid, but it's still all hypothetical. You can't take away who they played with or played against. Winning is still winning, if you win with 5 HOF teammates or win with a team full of smurfs. Dominique had a great career, especially statistically. No one would compare Bob McAdoo to Tim Duncan. It's pretty silly to compare Nique to Kobe.

Great post

Too bad Barkley couldn't play D to save his life

[Kyle Orton]

I'm pretty sure Bird shot like 32% in a game 7 as well. Not to mention Kobe has 2 more rings.

Horry > Kobe > bird. Got it.