Pop & RC - take note as Mr. Presti gets it

[cd98]

It's not the draft that is killing the spurs it's the lack of key trades to upgrade the talent level and good free agent signings. Too much standing pat with the same roster year after year and watching the key players get older.

Hard to make good trades when you don't have assets. Spurs pick late every year, which denies them the chance to stockpile youth. They try and find late round gems and Euro talent. But that only works every once in a while. Furthermore, Spurs don't sign bad contracts, so they rarely have expiring contracts to get good players. Don't forget the Spurs had to trade three players to get Jefferson. That's part of their problem, they'd have to trade five of their young players on low paying contracts to get a quality player in return. That's too much to pay for most any player.

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously TJ, show me which CEO makes decisions on how much money his business should lose based solely on his personal net worth.

Give us the hard facts.

You don't have an answer yet, TJ?

Maybe another of your sophisms could delay things.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll be back in a few hours TJ. Maybe you will have googled something appropriate by then.

[cd98]

And who did he get for Green - that's right - Perkins.



They could have continued to contend by signing Scola, by not resigning Bonner and RJ, and by integrating Splitter.

What makes you think LA won't contend anymore? They get an athletic point guard and they're right back in business.



Better to play SF by committee - Novak, Anderson, whatever scrub they could pick up than pay $10m for the disappearing act that was RJ.

You have a strange idea of what is reliable. IMO Splitter played very well considering the lack of time he had on the court during the regular season.



A lot of good that #1 seed did them with Gasol/Randolph abusing Bonner in the paint. RJ was a complete disaster in the playoffs. Why do you think MEM played really well against the Spurs? Spurs had inferior interior defense which opened up the perimeter shots.

Bonner and RJ are going to be the cement block around the Spurs neck for the next 3 years.



Totally agree.

1. Talking Scola is working backwards through the equation. Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew Scola would be the player he is or we would have had a ton of people interested in trading for him.

2. LA may contend, but Phil isn't going to wait around to find out. His star is now on the downside. Time for him to go to Heat so he can keep his winning reputation.

3. By committee? Novak? He is way worse than Jefferson. If he gets major minutes, we wouldn't make the playoffs. I'm not a big fan of Jefferson, but we didn't and do not have many options. He is better than the scrubs you suggest we play. Anderson was injured, so he doesn't really factor into the conversation.

4. Splitter had good games. Splitter had bad games. He was inconsistent, which made him unreliable in Pop's eyes. Maybe he should have played more, or maybe playing him more would have showed he was still too young. Hard to say, but Pop is in the best position to know.

5. Last year we barely made the playoffs. This year, we were the number one seed. Richardson and Bonner were a big reason for the jump. Us losing in the playoffs? Well, we're a flawed team. We gave our best effort, but Memphis played better. Memphis defense was tremendous.

6. Bonner contract is exaggerated. He's not overpaid. Jefferson, while overpaid, will be servicable next year and tradable after that as his contract becomes more attractive to teams looking for expirables. I doubt he finishes his career as a Spur.

[TJastal]

It isn't just about personal income, it's income the team generates. The Lakers will more than pay for themselves. The Spurs, not as much. Small market team vs. big market team. Holt doesn't want to take million dollar losses. I can't blame him.

Bonner was not a bad signing. Look at how much money he makes and it is reasonable when you compare him to veteran players around the league. The problem is that we have higher expectations given the minutes he receives. But again, without his near 50% three point shooting, we don't get the seeding we got. He won quite a few regular season games for us.

I'm bolding this portion of your post because in the end its the only thing that really matters. You can't win with a 1 dimensional chucker in the playoffs, its been proven 4 times in a row now. I don't care if the spurs go 82-0 and Bonner hits 82 game winners, I don't want him on the team if can't deliver anything come playoff time.

[TJastal]

Seriously TJ, show me which CEO makes decisions on how much money his business should lose based solely on his personal net worth.

Give us the hard facts.

Peter Holt owns a franchise called the "San Antonio Spurs".. whose net worth is currently 404 million according to Hoopshype.

Obviously, taking a loss is a tough thing to swallow in any calendar year, but if it benefits the franchise' in the long term then its not "losing", its "winning".

Of course, this is all just business 101. And I should be getting paid for my time.

[K-State Spur]

Peter Holt owns a franchise called the "San Antonio Spurs".. whose net worth is currently 404 million according to Hoopshype.

Obviously, taking a loss is a tough thing to swallow in any calendar year, but if it benefits the franchise' in the long term then its not "losing", its "winning".

Of course, this is all just business 101. And I should be getting paid for my time.

You understand that means he could [maybe] expect to get $404M if he sold it?

That does not mean that they have $404M sitting in the bank account. You get that, right?

[TJastal]

You understand that means he could [maybe] expect to get $404M if he sold it?

That does not mean that they have $404M sitting in the bank account. You get that, right?

Yes, so? It's still an asset. Would you trash and burn your house and property if someone gave you a hundred bucks? After all, you'd have that hundred bucks in your hand afterward, right?

[lowdown]

I'm not sure what the debate is about. Bonner & Jefferson contracts are not good ones. It was mistake to sign those guys for the amount of years they were given. However, the front office is one of the best at finding young talent without having high draft picks. The Scola trade was dumb - every scout knew he was a very good player. His success in Europe & Argentina was not a secret. Pop was a stubborn asshole for not playing Splitter (& Anderson) more as the regular season wound down and for continuing to play Bonner all those minutes. I'm sure the off-season will be another good one but what really is going to matter is who Pop decides to play in the main rotation. This is the key if the Spurs have any chance of getting another le. Yes, they need another impact player. Yes, we need more Splitter, Blair, Anderson, Neal, & Hill (unless 1 or more are part of deal) to play impact minutes. The original core should never be traded. Loyalty is important for winning franchises. It's just not good if you always have to rely on the aging veterans for all the key plays. I'm not being naive either. Parker is the only one with real trade value but it would be a swap. The Lakers had a lot of "lucky" things go their way to build their team. Boston had a lot of lottery picks to move. We all know what Miami did. Dallas always makes trades and overpays every year. OKC has a lot of lottery talent and hasn't won the prize yet. They also don't have that great of a roster - Collison, D.Cook, Maynor, Mohammed aren't that great.

[K-State Spur]

I really have no desire to venture into the head where that analogy makes sense...

[wildbill2u]

Sure I might jinx them, but right now OKC looks like their front court is coming together and will end up overtaking Memphis. It's absolutely puzzling how having a big front court pays dividends in the playoffs vs. a small front court.

If OKC starts to play more consistently as a team, they'll finish out this series and should take Dallas - OKC has the better front court.

They might not be that spectacular on paper, but Perkins, Ibaka, Nazr and Collison are a pretty formidable front court group and their total salary (my #'s might be wrong) is only $26 mil or $6 mil per player (Collison's is half that total.)

The talk in Dallas is about they'd rather play OKC than Memphis. They played well against OKC in regular season and not so well against Memphis.

[K-State Spur]

The Jefferson years may not even be much of an issue if rumors of another Allan Houston/Michael Finley amnesty rule are true.

[rmt]

1. Talking Scola is working backwards through the equation. Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew Scola would be the player he is or we would have had a ton of people interested in trading for him.

You don't think that a player with this type of resume is worth $3m:

2000 Spanish League Rookie of the Year
2000 FIBA Americas Under-20 Championship MVP
2005 Spanish Supercup MVP
2× Spanish League MVP 2005, 2007
All-Euroleague Second Team 2005
2× All-Euroleague First Team 2006, 2007
2× FIBA Americas Championship MVP 2007

I'd take a chance on him especially as they gave about the same amount to Jackie Butler who had done squat. Everyone knew what Scola was going to be. For God sake, Manu - his national team mate for how many years - could have told them (just as he's been saying all season long about Splitter).

2. LA may contend, but Phil isn't going to wait around to find out. His star is now on the downside. Time for him to go to Heat so he can keep his winning reputation.

I think it's naive of you to think that they may contend - Kobe's got lots left in the tank. They are going to contend. They still have the best front line in the league, Kobe Bryant and an owner willing to spend to win rings. Kobe will never play with Lebron.

3. By committee? Novak? He is way worse than Jefferson. If he gets major minutes, we wouldn't make the playoffs. I'm not a big fan of Jefferson, but we didn't and do not have many options. He is better than the scrubs you suggest we play. Anderson was injured, so he doesn't really factor into the conversation.

Yes, by committee, the way they played the last game vs MEM. The useless POS RJ was played only 10 mins. and the rest of the SF mins. were absorbed by other players. They could have picked up a vet for the min or imagine Peja and the wonderful job he's done on the Mavs.

4. Splitter had good games. Splitter had bad games. He was inconsistent, which made him unreliable in Pop's eyes. Maybe he should have played more, or maybe playing him more would have showed he was still too young. Hard to say, but Pop is in the best position to know.

Still too young? At 26 with what - 10 years of pro ball behind him? By finally playing Splitter (in desperation) in game 4 and benching Blair, Pop essentially admitted that he'd made a mistake in not integrating Splitter.

5. Last year we barely made the playoffs. This year, we were the number one seed. Richardson and Bonner were a big reason for the jump. Us losing in the playoffs? Well, we're a flawed team. We gave our best effort, but Memphis played better. Memphis defense was tremendous.

Even though we barely made the playoffs last year, we went further into the playoffs then than this year. It's the playoffs that matter after all - not the regular season. We're a flawed team because we have Bonner and RJ playing major minutes. And no we didn't give our best effort. Our second best defensive big was sitting on the bench for 3 games.

6. Bonner contract is exaggerated. He's not overpaid. Jefferson, while overpaid, will be servicable next year and tradable after that as his contract becomes more attractive to teams looking for expirables. I doubt he finishes his career as a Spur.

What starting SF plays for 10 minutes in a playoff elimination game? RJ's contract is for 4 years - there are still 3 years left of this useless POS.

[TJastal]

I really have no desire to venture into the head where that analogy makes sense...

http://blogs.forbes.com/kurtbadenhau...ms-for-buck-2/

Owner Peter Holt has seen the value of his team soar from $122 million to $404 million since Duncan arrived as the consistent winning helped get AT&T Center built mostly with public money.

Let's see... lose a few million in 2010 .. or lose almost 300 million by turning the franchise into rubbish... tough choices... don't strain yourselves too hard with this..oh wait we can't withdraw the spurs from the bank.. never mind..

[ChumpDumper]

You didn't respond to this, TJ. You just engaged in nonstop sophistry.

Seriously TJ, show me which CEO makes decisions on how much money his business should lose based solely on his personal net worth.

Give us the hard facts.

You also confused Holt's personal net worth with the valuation of the San Antonio Spurs.

I'll let you know if you ever get anything right.

[ChumpDumper]

Peter Holt owns a franchise called the "San Antonio Spurs".. whose net worth is currently 404 million according to Hoopshype.

So why is his net worth you listed earlier so much lower, genius?

Obviously, taking a loss is a tough thing to swallow in any calendar year, but if it benefits the franchise' in the long term then its not "losing", its "winning".

Sorry, winning on the court and profit do not go hand in hand.

Of course, this is all just business 101. And I should be getting paid for my time.

Who would pay for this kind of bull ?

[ElNono]

What about our situation dictates Pop's decision to elevate Bonnerball over Spursball?
Of course our situation is different, it's a matter of understanding what works. Defense and size has proven to be a pretty good bet in the post season. Bonnerball not so much.

Any situation that includes a Bonner and Blair frontcourt being a central component to a system is due to fail, even at the college level.

Any situation that includes Bonner to play more than 10+ minutes is due to fail. Just fail. Just ing fail.

Any situation that includes Jefferson to be a significant offensive contributor in crunch situations is due to fail.

What I mean is Presti has a young franchise superstar and a talented young core surrounding him, which is really the harder part. He has done a good job of pulling the right deals and plugging good vets in that team.

We're conceptually in the opposite side of the spectrum. We have an aging core on the decline and we're trying to find talented young pieces on the cheap to try to extend the window.

[cd98]

You don't think that a player with this type of resume is worth $3m:

2000 Spanish League Rookie of the Year
2000 FIBA Americas Under-20 Championship MVP
2005 Spanish Supercup MVP
2× Spanish League MVP 2005, 2007
All-Euroleague Second Team 2005
2× All-Euroleague First Team 2006, 2007
2× FIBA Americas Championship MVP 2007

I'd take a chance on him especially as they gave about the same amount to Jackie Butler who had done squat. Everyone knew what Scola was going to be. For God sake, Manu - his national team mate for how many years - could have told them (just as he's been saying all season long about Splitter).


Euro resume isn't the same to the NBA. Sorry. And if everyone knew how good Scola would be in the NBA, then why didn't more teams make a play for him? Manta teams could have beat Houston's offer. Hindsight 20/20. A lot of quality Eurp players couldnt make it in the NBA.


I think it's naive of you to think that they may contend - Kobe's got lots left in the tank. They are going to contend. They still have the best front line in the league, Kobe Bryant and an owner willing to spend to win rings. Kobe will never play with Lebron.



Yes, by committee, the way they played the last game vs MEM. The useless POS RJ was played only 10 mins. and the rest of the SF mins. were absorbed by other players. They could have picked up a vet for the min or imagine Peja and the wonderful job he's done on the Mavs.



Still too young? At 26 with what - 10 years of pro ball behind him? By finally playing Splitter (in desperation) in game 4 and benching Blair, Pop essentially admitted that he'd made a mistake in not integrating Splitter.



Even though we barely made the playoffs last year, we went further into the playoffs then than this year. It's the playoffs that matter after all - not the regular season. We're a flawed team because we have Bonner and RJ playing major minutes. And no we didn't give our best effort. Our second best defensive big was sitting on the bench for 3 games.



What starting SF plays for 10 minutes in a playoff elimination game? RJ's contract is for 4 years - there are still 3 years left of this useless POS.

[Nathan89]

Backroom dealing. Given the Spurs's history, no way they resign Jefferson to a long-term deal. But what probably happened, but can't be officially said, is that the Spurs asked Jefferson to opt out and they guaranteed they would resign him for a longer deal with more money so they could use the savings to sign Splitter and stay under the cap.

Spurs are hoping to make the same deal with Duncan most likely. Instead of paying him one large payment this year, spread it out over a couple years so you can sign players now and avoid salary cap issues.

Spurs are not Dallas. They can't absorb bad contracts and make due with paying hugh salary cap penalties.

If the Spurs are the type of organization to "backroom deal" then they should have had no problem going back on their unofficial word. A contract can't be binding if it is illegal.

If Rj came back to me looking for a long-term contract my reaction is.

[Nathan89]

Splitter given time on the court will be as effective as Marc Gasol.

Couldn't disagree with any comment on this thread more than this.

[Nathan89]

Quite a few of them, actually.

You're acting like it's a maximum contract.

Agree with ChumpDumper. I think Bonner could easily get his contract from other teams.

Spurs could have just used Bonner's money to sign Splitter and paid the got damn tax 1 got damn year and don't pretend otherwise.

Holt is worth 80m according to USAToday. Considering Jerry Buss @ 380m spent 21m in tax in 2010 (and regularily spends over the tax) I think Holt could (for one measly year) pay 1/5 of that, or 4m... which would have been roughly the difference in Jefferson's salary. And had the spurs not resigned Bonner, that difference becomes even smaller, to almost paying no tax at all.

I want a new owner.

[ChumpDumper]

If the Spurs are the type of organization to "backroom deal" then they should have had no problem going back on their unofficial word. A contract can't be binding if it is illegal.

And the Spurs could never work with an agent ever again.

[ChuckD]

What I mean is Presti has a young franchise superstar and a talented young core surrounding him, which is really the harder part. He has done a good job of pulling the right deals and plugging good vets in that team.

We're conceptually in the opposite side of the spectrum. We have an aging core on the decline and we're trying to find talented young pieces on the cheap to try to extend the window.

Trying to convince them that they're comparing apples and oranges won't get you very far. They're convinced that the FO is broken, and there's no "unconvincing" them.

[rascal]

The words simply fit you so well.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I don't know how Chumpo got an all star 2nd team from this site.
This guy offers nothing but to argue with people.

[Man In Black]

Pete's not worth that much. He's tied for lowest net worth out of every NBA owner.

Also, he is Chairman of the San Antonio Spurs. He's the principal guy but he doesn't own the team just by himself like say Paul Allen or Mickey Arison.
http://www.lipstickalley.com/f19/nba...owners-122150/

This list doesn't include Russian Billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov. Owner of the Nets.
Pete is tied with Les Alexander, owner of the Houston Rockets. And they have LESS than 100 Million. At the time of the list, they were both at $80M respectively.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/12/16/lak...lionaires.html
If you go by the Forbes list of Billionaire's in the NBA, Prokhorov has the most money now, followed by Paul Allen. Since that list is only of Billionaires, the last guy to get in was Herb Simon, at 1.25B. That means that the Spurs aren't as Cash Rich as some people think. They do it as best as they can, small market bootstrapping at it's finest.