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And Duncan has not even had one teammate who made an All NBA 1st team.
So what does that tell you?
Who gives a if the Lakers are not the winners at the end of the season...
And Duncan has not even had one teammate who made an All NBA 1st team.
So what does that tell you?
Return of midnightpulp
So apparently using MVP's, Finals MVP's, 6th man of the year, All-Star Selections, AND All-NBA team selections, essentially every player achievement out there, is "using arbitrary categories."
Holy. .
this is why in the "nba forum awards" i gave you a mention for MVP despite the fact that we typically jab at each other
Number of All Star selections:
Duncan's supporting cast: 4
Kobe's supporting cast: 3
6 Man of the Year award winners:
Duncan: 1
Kobe: 1
Regular season MVP award winners:
Duncan: 0
Kobe: 1
Finals MVP award winners:
Duncan: 1
Kobe: 1
All NBA First Team Selections:
Duncan: 0
Kobe: 6
2nd team selections:
Duncan: 3
Kobe: 3
3rd team selections:
Duncan: 5
This is the real numbers. He adjusted the numbers to show Shaq winning 3 FMVP's as 3 of Kobe's teamates, when in reality, its 1 player.
Also, he can't see the fact that Duncan's played with better players...
Robinson < Shaq
Parker > Gasol
Ginobli > Odom
Bowen > Bynum
And ALL NBA First Teams were all Shaq, but he listed them 6 as if it was 6 of Kobe's teammates. His agenda has been exposed
Also he conveniently left out Bruce Bowen being named to All Defensive 1st teams 5 Times, and Defensive 2nd Teams 3 times....
He left out Defensive Team Awards because they would skew the Numbers in Kobe's favor.
You're good people, my negroMe and you though Deadly, we're good
Ahahaha Duncan ain't getting Bron Bron is gonna rape his monkey ass.
All Defensive selections:
This is the real numbers. He adjusted the numbers to show Shaq winning 3 FMVP's as 3 of Kobe's teamates, when in reality, its 1 player.
And ALL NBA First Teams were all Shaq, but he listed them 6 as if it was 6 of Kobe's teammates. His agenda has been exposed
Also he conveniently left out Bruce Bowen being named to All Defensive 1st teams 5 Times, and Defensive 2nd Teams 3 times....
He left out Defensive Team Awards because they would skew the Numbers in Kobe's favor. [/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]
1st team
Duncan: 5
Kobe: 0
2nd team
Duncan: 3
Kobe: 5
3rd team
Duncan: 0
Kobe: 1
End of the day though, it's much, much harder to make an All NBA First team than it is to make an All NBA Defensive team.
This is such a re ed simplification, I don't even know where to begin? By this logic, if Duncan got to play with Jamaal Magloire, Michael Redd in '04, Mo Williams in '09, and Gerald Wallace in '10, all players who made only one All Star game, he'd have had "more help" than Kobe? Wow.Number of All Star selections:
Duncan's supporting cast: 4
Kobe's supporting cast: 3
Are you really this stupid?
BTW, who is the 4th Spur to make the All Star team? Robinson, Manu, and Parker were the only players that I recall to make an All Star team playing alongside Duncan. On the other hand, players who've made the All Star game in the Kobe era:
Shaq
Eddie Jones
Pau Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Dwight Howard
So even if the 4th Spur escapes my mind, it's still (using your re ed standard) 5>4 in favor of Kobe.
Let's do it like this instead.Also, he can't see the fact that Duncan's played with better players...
Robinson < Shaq
Parker > Gasol
Ginobli > Odom
Bowen > Bynum
Best player Duncan has ever played with.
Tony Parker is inferior, far inferior, to Shaquille O'Neal, a top ten all-time great.
Second best player Duncan has ever played with is '05-'09 Manu Ginobili who isn't as good as '08-'10 Pau Gasol. In all of the all time great lists I've shown, not one of them ranks Manu (or Parker for that matter) above Pau Gasol.
Third best player Duncan has played with is '98-'01 David Robinson. A slightly better player than prime Lamar Odom, and an inferior player to Dwight Howard. But since Dwight is only a rental thus far, we won't count him as part of Kobe's all time supporting cast.
4th best player Duncan has played with so far is probably Bruce Bowen, who, as an all around player, is about equal to '98-'99 Eddie Jones and '97-'03 Robert Horry.
Derek Fisher>Avery Johnson
Rick Fox>Past his prime Sean Elliott
Andrew Bynum>Rasho/Fabricio Oberto
Ron Artest>Danny Ferry/Steve Smith/Richard Jefferson
Trevor Ariza=Stephen Jackson
Brian Shaw=Steve Kerr
Jordan Farmar>Speedy Claxton
And the list goes on.
I see a lot of double standards from both the Duncan and Kobe minions tbh.
I'll put it this way.
Defensively, Duncan's value could not be matched by Kobe even on his best defensive year, heck even Shaq couldn't do that, Big men always have the edge in terms of defensive impact anyway. Efficiency? Duncan has that one in the bag too. Longevity and consistency? its tied, both are ridiculously consistent within their long NBA careers. Intangibles? Duncan has been the easier teammate to play with. It was a cake walk coaching Duncan as testified by Popovich. You can't say the same for Kobe who has alienated even the best coach in history. Kobe definitely tested Phil's resolve and that was no easy task.
Popularity? Like it or not, its part of the players legacy. Kobe's much more marketable, he's much more known worldwide. This is a major reason why Kobe will never lose his luster and why Duncan though being a better player will most likely lose his relevance before Bryant does. Does anyone understand why the league and writers always highlight's Doctor J when talking about the 83 NBA Championship season by the 76ers? Even though, Moses Malone was the best player on that team? You got that right, the best player of his team or perhaps the better player in that era is overshadowed by Dr. J simply because Malone doesn't have much flash in his game. I just see the same argument for Kobe and Duncan's career 5, 10 years from now. Although not in the same scale, when it all boils down to GOAT talks, there's a good chance Duncan's career will be overshadowed by Bryants'.
Accomplishments? Duncan has more FMVP's, MVP's. The rest shouldn't even matter. Those two are the cream of the crop. Duncan wins in that department. But if I may, Duncan also is a Bronze Medalist. Something I'm sure he's not proud of. I've read all the excuse, and though warranted. Fact is, he one was of the key players who let USA down. Kobe never faced such embarassment in the international stage.
The whole body of Kobe's remarkable career can be pointed towards his insane ability to put points in the bucket, that's not a question at all, in terms of scoring, Kobe's probably second to none when he's hot. But its not peaches and cream, Kobe's biggest strength is also his biggest downfall. While it must feel good to hold the le of the most points scored in the playoffs by any other player, he also achieved this by also taking the most shots (and also the most misses, both in the playoffs and regular season, ouch). But I'll give Kobe credit where its due. I never understand the need to discredit Kobe's 5 championship rings. He was a great second option who did his role exceptionally well during the 3 Peat, better than anyone tbh, he scored like a 1st option when called upon, he was actually a pretty good defender during their le run and he's severely underrated as a play maker during that same span. Not even a natural point guard like Gary Payton could run that triangle with success, it goes to show Kobe's tremendous value in that team and in context, I could see why some Laker fans always puts Kobe as Option 1B, because, truth be told, Lakers are not guaranteed a 3 Peat run without Kobe's brilliance. And when it was time for him to step up and prove his worth as the main guy, he delivered winning back to back les, something Duncan never did in his glorious career despite having a consistent amount of talented and driven individuals under one great coach. Keep in mind, the Lakers had to rebuild quickly after Shaq left and won back to back les in just its 5th year (credit to Mitch)
I also hear people say Duncan never missed a playoffs or something to that degree and was consistent in leading the Spurs for 50 + win regular seasons, which really shows tremendous consistency (credit to Pops too) but in 2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, and 2012 the Spurs also lost all of their playoff series despite having HCA, that's disappointing. Under Kobe's era, the Lakers only lost twice (2004 Pistons, 2011 Mavs). Duncan also never won a back to back le, something that's extremely hard to accomplish at the NBA, while Kobe was able to successfully help the Lakers defend their le in their era.
In terms of franchise, Spurs has a better track record by drafting wisely. I actually have a lot more respect for the Spurs simply because they didn't buy a team on their way to multiple les. You can't same the same for the Lakers but I'f im allowed to be neutral, I think the Lakers owns the team of our era simply because they have repeats, three-peats, and they also own the Spurs head-to-head playoff records. If San Antonio however wins next season, I think that wrap its up in San Antonio's favor.
For me, the bottom line is this. Duncan is just the better individual player, I tried to look for angles to give Kobe the edge but he just doesn't have it. Had he performed well Game 7 in 2010 against the Celtics, I think I would put Kobe ahead of Duncan and forgive Kobe's previous disappointing NBA Finals series, but he did not, that could've been the game that will immortalize his legacy, but he failed despite winning.
For each respective franchise, its like picking prime versus longevity. Spurs had the longevity but LA had the better prime. I value primes, so my pick are the Lakers.
All Defensive selections:
1st team
Duncan: 5
Kobe: 0
2nd team
Duncan: 3
Kobe: 5
3rd team
Duncan: 0
Kobe: 1
End of the day though, it's much, much harder to make an All NBA First team than it is to make an All NBA Defensive team.
This is such a re ed simplification, I don't even know where to begin? By this logic, if Duncan got to play with Jamaal Magloire, Michael Redd in '04, Mo Williams in '09, and Gerald Wallace in '10, all players who made only one All Star game, he'd have had "more help" than Kobe? Wow.
Are you really this stupid?
BTW, who is the 4th Spur to make the All Star team? Robinson, Manu, and Parker were the only players that I recall to make an All Star team playing alongside Duncan. On the other hand, players who've made the All Star game in the Kobe era:
Shaq
Eddie Jones
Pau Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Dwight Howard
So even if the 4th Spur escapes my mind, it's still (using your re ed standard) 5>4 in favor of Kobe.
Let's do it like this instead.
Best player Duncan has ever played with.
Tony Parker is inferior, far inferior, to Shaquille O'Neal, a top ten all-time great.
Second best player Duncan has ever played with is '05-'09 Manu Ginobili who isn't as good as '08-'10 Pau Gasol. In all of the all time great lists I've shown, not one of them ranks Manu (or Parker for that matter) above Pau Gasol.
Third best player Duncan has played with is '98-'01 David Robinson. A slightly better player than prime Lamar Odom, and an inferior player to Dwight Howard. But since Dwight is only a rental thus far, we won't count him as part of Kobe's all time supporting cast.
4th best player Duncan has played with so far is probably Bruce Bowen, who, as an all around player, is about equal to '98-'99 Eddie Jones and '97-'03 Robert Horry.
Derek Fisher>Avery Johnson
Rick Fox>Past his prime Sean Elliott
Andrew Bynum>Rasho/Fabricio Oberto
Ron Artest>Danny Ferry/Steve Smith/Richard Jefferson
Trevor Ariza=Stephen Jackson
Brian Shaw=Steve Kerr
Jordan Farmar>Speedy Claxton
And the list goes on.
Its funny how you just arbitralily say who's better than who. Like Farmer over Claxton. There isn't a stat that would support that argument, but because you listed a lot of players you think people would just ignore that.
I'm talking about players that he WON Championships with. Not scrubs that played a few years. And the fact is, during the Championship years, Kobe has only played with 2 Allstars. Duncan has played with 3. I was mistaken with 4.
Saying things like
Rick Fox > Past his prime Sean Elli
is a clear Agenda move. Rick fox was already past his prime when the Lakers won their first championship. But you didn't say that did you. You highlighted Sean Elliots prime so that you could use the "less than" symbol. The fact of the Matter is Sean Elliott is a 2 Time allstar while, Rick foxx never SNIFFED an allstar game. Your agenda is clearly evident.
LOL, Brian Shaw = 5 Time champion, 3 point shoot out, 2x 3 point Percentage Champion Steve Kerr
Also comparing Oberto and Andrew bynum is ridiculous. Oberto has International awards, and won an International MVP. Bynum, barley made 1 allstar game and has never played a full season. LOL....You are a clown!
The point is man, The Spurs have been able to Consistenly surround Duncan with Talent. You won 2 championshps in the years that Kobe and Shaq split. Duncan never played with Scrubs like Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker and other scrubs. But even with all the talent duncan has had, he still won LESS. DEAL WITH IT....
03 Playoffs - Spurs - 97.7 DRTG (#1 out of 16)
06 Playoffs - Lakers - 113.6 DRTG (#15 out of 16)
Lol.
Rick Fox's was a better player for the Lakers during the 3 peat than Sean Elliott, two years from retirement and missing a kidney, was with the Spurs by the time Duncan arrived. Fox was a better defender, better rebounder, and about the same level of scorer. But to throw you a bone, I'll concede Rick Fox=Sean Elliott.
Howeva...
'00 Glen Rice > '99 Sean Elliott.
Compare Shaw's stats with the Lakers to Kerr's with San Antonio and get back to me. Never mind, since you're a moron, I'll be happy to do the work for you:
Kerr's playoff stats during the '99 Championship run: 2.2 points on .267 shooting.
Shaw's during the '00 run: 5.4 points on .421 shooting.
Kerr's stats during the '03 run: 2.2 points on .636 shooting.
Shaw's during the '01 run: 4.4 points on .375 shooting.
And when we compare their rebounding and assist stats, it's even more laughable.
Lol at referencing 3 point shootout "championships" as if they mean anything. Kerr was little more than a scrub who hit big shots once in awhile, just like Brian Shaw.
That wasn't the original premise of the debate. We we're debating who has had more help over the entirety of the career. You can't blame Duncan for the fact Kobe failed to win a championship when BOTH Eddie Jones and Shaq were All Stars at the same time.I'm talking about players that he WON Championships with. Not scrubs that played a few years. And the fact is, during the Championship years, Kobe has only played with 2 Allstars. Duncan has played with 3. I was mistaken with 4.
And guess what? Duncan has never had the luxury (like Kobe) to play alongside two All Star selections, since Parker and Manu never made it at the same time.
Furthermore, Duncan has won the championship playing WITHOUT an All Star selection by his side. Something Kobe has never even come close to doing. In addition to that, Duncan has never played alongside a top 25 player of all-time, much less a top 10 player of all-time, as Kobe got to for 8 years.
Oh, and David Robinson never made an All Star team in a championship year. Maybe he makes it '99 if there was one, but Shaq would've definitely been the starter and Hakeem (who had better stats) the likely reserve.
So:
Duncan championship teams: 2 All Stars and no top ten all-time great player.
Kobe championship teams: 2 All Stars and one of the greatest players of all-time.
But again, using All Star selections to define player quality is the height of stupidity.
The fact Kobe played with PEAK Shaq for half his career (with good surrounding talent around that core) pretty much undermines any supporting cast argument you can come up with. That would be like Duncan playing with second 3 peat Jordan and then me telling you so-and-so player had "more help" because he played with one more "all star"
If it makes you feel better, I'll concede Duncan's '05 supporting cast was better than Kobe's supporting casts in '09 and '10. But other than that, Kobe's championship teams have always had deeper talent.
Ok, you keep saying that "Duncan never playeed with a top 25 player of all time", but you will have to concede that he played with a Top 10 Center of all time. Most people have Robinson in their Top Ten Center list. The fact that Robinson isn't better than 25 other Guards and Forwards is irrelevant, he's still a top 10 center.
Also, Peak Shaq started in 95-2003. Shaq was NOT Peak in 2004. Kobe played with PEAK Shaq for 6 years. And then you have to consider the fact, that they didn't start winnning championships until KOBE got better. Shaq had been in the league 4 Years before Kobe was a rookie.
Duncan came in the league to a team with an Established top 10 Center who just made the all star team the year before and won MVP 2 years before that. Duncan also had Pop from day 1. Kobe didn't get Phil until his 4 Year in the league.
My overall point is this, Duncan had more CONSISTENT help than Kobe. It may not been more if you use Shaq > parker/ginobli/Robinson....But if you list it Individually, Duncan had a better team. The 3 peat Lakers were one of the most Top heavy Championship teams in NBA History. You had Shaq and Kobe. Then everybody else. The spurs had Robinson, Duncan, Parker and Ginobli all at the same time in 2003. Ginobli had already 3 Italian League MVP's, and 2 EURO league MVP's along with Euroleague and FIBA Championship BEFORE he came to the spurs. He was an INTERNATIONAL Superstar. Kobe never had that until he got Pau, but he was the second option, while Ginobli was the 4th option and came off the bench. The talent levels of both teams throughout the Kobe/Duncan era isn't comparable.
Shaq was still near his peak in '04. He demolished the Wallace Brothers, but didn't get enough touches because Kobe was desperate to win his 1st Finals MVP and chucked the Lakers out of the series.
And. Who. Gives. A. . About. Manu's. Euroleague. Accomplishments. All that matters is what you do on the floor, and Manu was behind Stephen Jackson in the rotation in '03 and was nowhere near the player he was two years later. A variety of players have been "Euroleague" superstars and never done in the NBA. Citing Ginobili's Euroleague accomplishments is irrelevant.
More on that '03 team that you keeping telling me had Parker, Robinson, and Manu all at the same time.
Parker was being benched in favor of Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr.
Manu was a rookie who average 9.6 points per game on .386 shooting.
David Robinson was in his retirement season and put 7.8 point per game in the playoffs.
Tell me again with a straight face that team was deeper than any of Kobe's le teams?
The Lakers were indeed top heavy, but weren't in anyway Shaq/Kobe and a bunch of scrubs. They were surrounded by some of the best veteran role players of this era: Horry, Fox, Harper, Fisher, etc. Without Horry, the Spurs are sitting on 1 less le.
No one but Kobe fanboys would agree that Duncan has had more "consistent" help throughout his career than Kobe.
Hold, up...So you don't agree that Duncan has had more consistent help than Kobe? Even during the down years? Really man? Yall won championships 4 times with the SAME team...Kobe had to wait until his team got better....Matter of fact....the only Team mate Kobe had from the Three Peat years is Fisher...
Of course not. But overall, Kobe's had better complementary stars throughout his career (more total all star team selections, more total All NBA selections, more MVP award winners). Again, the Shaq factor. I don't think you appreciate the nightmare it is for an opposing team to have to play against a team that features the best player in the league, at his peak, and the 3rd/4th/5th best player in the league as Kobe was during the 3 peat. Surround those two with solid role players with a great head coach at the helm, and you're guaranteed a few les.
And the reason the Spurs have had to rely on "the same" team is because they can't attract high profile free agents or spend too much over the luxury tax like the Lakers.
I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the Spurs had THIS Tony Parker for 5 or 6 years or '05 Manu for the same amount of time, but they haven't.
Anyhow, end of the day, it's a tricky argument to "prove" either way since Kobe and Duncan play different positions.
I agree with you that on a scale, shaq dominance outshines Parker/Ginobli/ Robinson.....But
Shaq = Duncan
Kobe = Parker + Ginobli+ Robinson
Phil > Pop
Brown + RudyT+Del Harris+Kurt Rambis < POP
So the total talent level among the stars is equal when put on a scale. But its the role players where the spurs get the edge. Its also the fact that the Spurs kept the team intact for 17 years...
I have a problem with anyone other than the Lakers winning because it means my squad didn't win. But on a different level, as far as Duncan goes, I have no problem with it. I've always loved the TOSB's game. Quiet assassin ....... the quiet storm. If he gets his fifth or not, when the series ends, this is going to be the place to be.
Like who?
Gasol>Any Spur role player big man.
Bynum>Any Spur role player big man.
Odom>Bowen (I don't care about Bowen's all D selections. He was a specialist. Odom was a very, very solid all around player who could pass, rebound, and shoot).
Ariza/Artest/Fox=Sean Elliott, Stephen Jackson, Michael Finley.
Derek Fisher>Avery Johnson
Lakers Robert Horry=Spurs Robert Horry
Not really seeing how Spurs' role players get the edge here.
Gasol was not a role player man....Lets get serious. He's on Parker Level.
Odom < Ginobli
Gasol = Parker
You guys waste so much time debating about Kobe or Duncan's greatness...Jeebus man its getting old. Kobe just got on Forbes list for 3rd highest paid athlete this year and I'm sure Duncan is being paid in the upper millions for his role. Ya'll broke ass mother ers debating about these guys all the time and they don't give a about you.
You didn't include Gasol in your above equation, so I compared him to Spurs role players.
Again:
Shaq>Parker
Gasol>Ginobili
99' and '03 Robinson = '09 and '10 Odom.
I'll give you Bowen>Fisher.
Bynum>Rasho/Oberto
etc...
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