How many of you people...

[Guru of Nothing]

jochhejaam does a much better job than myself defending my beliefs.

But, your beliefs are fundamentally different from his.

[jochhejaam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by smeagol
jochhejaam does a much better job than myself defending my beliefs.

But, your beliefs are fundamentally different from his.

IMO We agree on the essentials

-God is our creator and heavenly Father.

-All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

-Jesus Christ is His Son sent to take the sins of the world upon Himself and becomes our Saviour if we allow Him to be. His victory over sin becomes our victory over sin when we ask Him to come into our lives. That is God's desire for his creation.

Quote from John the Baptist immediately after he first saw the Christ - (John 1:29) ... he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"!

I'll let the theologians argue the nuances of Christianity.

[Spurminator]

The point of combining Faith and Deeds, from a Christian perspective, is that if you perform only good deeds, you are providing a temporary fix... not eternal. By spreading your Faith, you are opening the door to eternal salvation for people who may not have come to know God. The deeds are a way of supporting your Faith.

I can imagine that sounds like an oversimplification, but you have to look at it from an eternal perspective.

[MannyIsGod]

People like Scott and Manny just want to stir the ant mound and get us fighting against each other.

And Swishy McJackass is just a ing bunghole.

I'm sorry that people like Scott and Manny challenge you with thinking about your faith. In truth, this is why I never discuss religion with people who I know aren't openminded. (I'm not calling you closeminded, I'm just making a point)

I'm not trying to stir anything. I have my own beliefs you think are incorrect, as I think yours are incorrect. I was presenting them here.

[Swishy McJackass]

People like Scott and Manny just want to stir the ant mound and get us fighting against each other.

And Swishy McJackass is just a ing bunghole.

I don't get the impression that anyone is trying to pit you against each other. Questioning one's deeply-held beliefs is a good thing, in my opinion. People SHOULD ask more questions.

And I fully admit to, and embrace, my bungholeness.

[MannyIsGod]

Good enough for what scott? For God to allow you to enter heaven? It's certainly not my call.

My understanding is that we will be judged based upon the knowledge we have received. If you are aware of God's plan of salvation and deliberately tempt God by trying to enter heaven by another means my guess would be that you probably would not make it. You can't rebel against God and please him at the same time.

One of the things that Jesus Christ said to Satan when he was tempted by him was; "It is written, you shall not tempt the Lord your God". He is a God of mercy and a God of Wrath and His Wrath is just as righteous as His mercy.

The more one communes with God and studies the Scriptures the clearer his understanding of what is written becomes.

Any God that refuses to allow me eternal salvation because I did not honor him properly is a god full of pride and a god for which I have no use.

I am not trying to disuade anyone from believing what they do, but that is a supreme litmus test for me.

[SWC Bonfire]

Questioning one's deeply-held beliefs is a good thing, in my opinion.

I question whether the sausage balls were either A. actual sausage, or B. actual ground-up balls masquarading as sausage.

And I fully admit to, and embrace, my bungholeness.

Touche, my friend, touche.

[SWC Bonfire]

I am not trying to disuade anyone from believing what they do, but that is a supreme litmus test for me.

OK. But some people here aren't looking for a litmus test.

Everyone on here has had things happen to them in life or noticed and questioned things that have brought them to believe what they believe. No one's logical reasonings are going to dissuade or convince anyone of anything without some personal experience to corroborate that logic.

[MannyIsGod]

OK. But some people here aren't looking for a litmus test.

Everyone on here has had things happen to them in life or noticed and questioned things that have brought them to believe what they believe. No one's logical reasonings are going to dissuade or convince anyone of anything without some personal experience to corroborate that logic.

And I don't remember anyone saying you had to be? A discussion doesn't always have to convince other people. It is a discussion.

You seem really defensive and threatend, and if you believe so strongly I can't imagine why.

[jochhejaam]

Any God that refuses to allow me eternal salvation because I did not honor him properly is a god full of pride and a god for which I have no use.

I am not trying to disuade anyone from believing what they do, but that is a supreme litmus test for me.

It's not His act of refusal, God has an open-door policy.

The refusal and rejection are actions we willfully make towards God and His plan for salvation. Let's make this crystal clear, there will be no one in that truly wanted to be in heaven.

What is there in God's plan that would cause anyone to choose eternal damnation and separation from God over eternal life?
Eternal like in forever!


Eternity;
You have a sphere the size of the earth made of solid gold and once every one thousand years an eagle flys by. By the time the motion of the flapping of this wing wears away this sphere of gold, eternity will just have begun.

[MannyIsGod]

It's not His act of refusal, God has an open-door policy.

The refusal and rejection are actions we willfully make towards God and His plan for salvation. Let's make this crystal clear, there will be no one in that truly wanted to be in heaven.

What is there in God's plan that would cause anyone to choose eternal damnation and separation from God over eternal life?
Eternal like in forever!


Eternity;
You have a sphere the size of the earth made of solid gold and once every one thousand years an eagle flys by. By the time the motion of the flapping of this wing wears away this sphere of gold, eternity will just have begun.

I have a problem with conditional salvation. You can say that the choice is entirely in our hands, but I can turn around and say that God choose to put is in that situation and is therefore just as responsible for the situation and it's outcome as anyone else is.

[MannyIsGod]

You see, it just goes against everything I know about love. "Do this or you don't get this" is not an expression of love, but rather a bargaining technique. It's negotiations. And well, unconditional love doens't require anyform of negotiating.

Now, thats not too say that unconditional love merrits an unconditional reward (salvation - eternal paradise - etc etc) but the act of putting people in a situation to have to decide on that is not an act of unconditional love.

[Spurminator]

What kind of reward is Heaven if everyone gets to go? And who would choose piety if it was not directly rewarded?

Love takes two.

[MannyIsGod]

What kind of reward is Heaven if everyone gets to go? And who would choose piety if it was not directly rewarded?

Love takes two.

Love doesn't take two. Unconditional love is without condition.

A reward like heaven should stand on its own, not on the exlusiveness of its members.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm keeping the faith.

[E20]

Quote from Corinthians: No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

That is a contradiction. Bible says God made man from the image of himself. Jesus = God, Jesus = Alive and Walking in olden times, thus that = people seeing God. If you go and look at Ian Mckellen with blonde hair chances are that is God....

[Spurminator]

A reward like heaven should stand on its own, not on the exlusiveness of its members.

But then it's not a reward.

Anyway, I'm not sure that God ever claims to love us "unconditionally". Perhaps some of the more well-versed Bible studiers could show a scripture that describes His love as unconditional, but I'm not immediately aware of one. I think that's something that man has placed upon God themselves.

God loves us no matter who we are here... That's why you can always "find Faith" at any point in your life, no matter what you've done. I think that is considered, to some, unconditional love. To me, it's clearly conditional, but I think it has to be.

[jochhejaam]

You see, it just goes against everything I know about love. "Do this or you don't get this" is not an expression of love, but rather a bargaining technique. It's negotiations. And well, unconditional love doens't require anyform of negotiating.

Now, thats not too say that unconditional love merrits an unconditional reward (salvation - eternal paradise - etc etc) but the act of putting people in a situation to have to decide on that is not an act of unconditional love.

In marriage there is an acceptable code of conduct (we'll call it "do this or you don't get this")that keeps the marriage strong and together. One spouse can make life so miserable for the other (physical violence, multiple affairs, etc.) that the only sensible course of action, regardless of how much the offended spouse loves the other (unconditionally), is separation. The guilty party is the one that caused the chasm by their own selfish, wreckless actions and got what was to be expected. Unconditional love by one cannot make up for the lack of love by the other.

The same is true with God. He created us and saw us dying in our sins and loved us so much that He sent us His only begotten Son to take away the sins of the world. This was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross and this was done for all. To reject that ultimate act of love (giving up his life so that others might receive eternal life), causes that same separation. His love for us has not ebbed, we have created the separation by rejecting that love.

Unconditional love does not require two, but the benefits and rewards that come with unconditional love (being together) requires two.

[MannyIsGod]

In marriage there is an acceptable code of conduct (we'll call it "do this or you don't get this")that keeps the marriage strong and together. One spouse can makes life so miserable for the other (physical violence, multiple affairs, etc.) that the only sensible course of action, regardless of how much the offended spouse loves the other (unconditionally), is separation. The guilty party is the one that caused the chasm by their own selfish, wreckless actions and got what was to be expected. Unconditional love by one cannot make up for the lack of love by the other.

The same is true with God. He created us and saw us dying in our sins and loved us son much that He sent us His only begotten Son to take away the sins of the world. This was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross and this was done for all. To reject that ultimate act of love (giving up his life so that others might receive eternal life), causes that same separation. His love for us has not ebbed, we have created the separation by rejecting that love.

Unconditional love does not require two, but the benefits and rewards that come with unconditional love (being together) requires two.

I believe the marriage analogy will not fly because the relationship with God has always been described a parent/child relationship which is much different. The love you have for a child is much harder to break than the love you have for a spouse. And whlie I'll concede that your scenario does fit even if we go under the parent/child situation, I will also propose that there is a much greater burden on the relationship on the parent because they have a large pool of knowledge and experience.

But all of that aside, what always "ruins" Christianity for me is the uselessness of the each of the Church's and the way they change the message you are giving and add.

For instance, even without a reward, why would God punish anyone by sending them to even if he loves them? And if God's love is not unconditional, then why would I want it?

Also, why is it nessecary for me to continuously do the acts such as kneel at mass, confess to a priest, take comunion etc etc if the relationship I have with God is a personal one?

It simply does not add up for me. I lead a good life, and I do good deads, and I believe I am a good man. If that is not enough for a certain God, then I believe God must follow his own advice when it comes to pride.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, I like the way you present your points on this topic, Jochhejaam.

[JoeChalupa]

I just try to keep my faith and let others do as they may but what I don't like is those who don't understand faith and then try to explain why they don't.
Faith comes from within and sometimes it just cannot be explained.

It's like that moment in "Contact" where Jody Foster's character doesn't believe in God because she needs "proof".
Then when she is asked if she loved her father she says "yes" and then is asked "prove it".
Happy are those who have not seen yet believe.
I believe in Mass and the Holy Sacraments and for those who don't understand it or think that I'm crazy for believing in organized religion....well, let's just say that I don't get how some don't have religion in their lives but whatever works for you is the key.

Kumba ya....Kumba ya..

[jochhejaam]

Thanks MIG

[ElMuerto]

Love also kills.

[smeagol]

But, your beliefs are fundamentally different from his.

No, they are fundamentally the same, with some differenes.

And he is doing a fine job defending my Faith.

[Guru of Nothing]

No, they are fundamentally the same, with some differenes.And he is doing a fine job defending my Faith.

Well, one difference relates to the entry requirements for Heaven. Some people consider that quite significant.