Warriors: Is Chef making his case for 2nd best PG all time?

[Killakobe81]

3 straight MVPs 2 fmvps. Led One of the most dominant teams ever. Bette advanced stats and traditional stats. It’s hard to argue bird < Kobe.

I thought you had Kobe at around 8-12. Where do you have bird?

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

[Killakobe81]

Though at one time I disliked Bird, Isiah, HAkeem, Jordan and Duncan due to rivalry reasons I Would go to war with either of my 1st or 2nd teams and feel i can beat almost anyone ...
That first team may lack 3 point shooting but the post play and passing would be spectacular. The sky hook, MJ fade away, the magic no look and baby sky hook, Lebon and MJ in transition. Magic and Lebron's vision.

The 2nd team gains Bird's shooting and Hakeem and shaq on the low and mid post would be filty. IF steph wins the le this year I may bump Zeke and that 2nd team becomes almost as deadly as the 1st team it only lacks wing defenders but having prime HAkeem and Kobe helps offset that. steph and Bird shooting 3's would be lethal.

[Killakobe81]

And amb please no long Kobe debate ...
I am happy to argue Magic and Bird but Kobe's rank is freaking boring.
Maybe I have him to high and you to low due to bias on both sides but who cares?
I can cherrypick advanced metrics and traditional counting ones to definitively argue Kobe is better you will choose others and say well Bird's back cut short his prime.
No one really cares.

I thought your bird over Magic take was interesting ...because you asked why is there a consensus magic was better when you felt otherwise at least that was new and fresh (though I knew you tend to infalte Bird and Moses) but I have no interest in an another Achilles debate.

[Killakobe81]

Bonus question for you Amb ...
IS bird the greatest rebounding SF ever? Not counting guys like Chuck, Elgin, Rodman even Lebron who hybrid PF/SF ...

But of true traditional SF's like Pippen, Worthy, Nique, TMAC, KD, Pierce etc. is Bird the best rebounder by far you ever seen play SF? Looking at the numbers it confirmed what I remembered but he was even better at rebounding than I recall ...

[RsxPiimp]

he definitely is. dont like the guy but his impact is undeniable. if it wasnt for his less than stellar finals in 15 and 16, he’d be the best PG of all time.


ive never seen a guard that could demoralize offensively like curry.

[Arcadian]

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

I agree with this. The only difference would be that I might have Wilt as the 2nd team center, but that's a tough call (especially not having seen Wilt in his proper historical context).

Good idea to have Hakeem as a PF. Why not? He technically started his career at PF alongside Sampson. The only true PF who even comes close to that level is Garnett, but Hakeem > Garnett.

[Killakobe81]

I agree with this. The only difference would be that I might have Wilt as the 2nd team center, but that's a tough call (especially not having seen Wilt in his proper historical context).

Good idea to have Hakeem as a PF. Why not? He technically started his career at PF alongside Sampson. The only true PF who even comes close to that level is Garnett, but Hakeem > Garnett.

Yeah I don't rate guys I did not see. And even the videos available such as classic gems tough for me to fully realize how great they are. For context, Bill simmons interviewed greats of that era writers etc and tried to inform his list of pantheon greats informed by that plus his years as a fan. Reading his book I still think he is biased towards Celts (No, really?!) and I would have a tough time ranking someone #1 I never watched perform. And if you gonna just go by numbers or rings what is the point of having any type of list?

[endrity]

I honestly think we are pretty close on this and are pretty much splitting hairs on this subject.

I think at his peak, Bird is one of the goats, comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Shaq. His career was unfortunately cut off short due to injuries, and the thing that is so great about him is that you just can't find another one like him. in 30 years there hasn't been anyone even remotely close to Bird. There are numerous poor man's Jordans, there are a few new Magics (Lebron is a like a cross between a Magic and Pippen, only improved version), but there hasn't been anything like a Bird, where the vision and feel of the game is so unique.

Career wise, I think Bird's peak was one of the greatest, and the thing that really hurts him is longevity. Duncan has surpassed Bird because of it, but Kobe isn't there. Bird is a clear top 10, Kobe is a 10 to 15 player if we are being honest.

Lebron has surpassed them all. I am just shocked at his impact this playoff run, and was ready to put him above Jordan, but then I thought about how dominant Jordan was, and even how dominant Shaq and Duncan were in some of those playoff runs, and I may really be just too into the moment on this subject. I have to think hard about it.

Pretty much same here on both counts.

And while I would agree with Hakeem as a PF, I think Dirk >>> Garnett shouldn't be much of a discussion at this point.

[Killakobe81]

Pretty much same here on both counts.

And while I would agree with Hakeem as a PF, I think Dirk >>> Garnett shouldn't be much of a discussion at this point.

I used to side with KG because of defense ... but not sure it's >>>> you are crazy. Dirk is better but the gap is not THAT wide.
But man living here in DFW and seeing Dirk up close many times ... Im with you there ...
I have been blessed to be living in cities to see prime Magic, worthy, Shaq, Kobe, dunacn and dirk.
Part of that was due to a layoff which sucked but God has blessed me to see all those guys play in person.
I also have seen GP/Kemp/Pau/Drexler/KD/Russ/Kidd seen some really good players in person.

[endrity]

It's wide enough that it shouldn't be a debate. Dirk is somewhere in the top 15-20 players of all time. KG is somewhere in the top 25-30. KG is a great player who had a legendary career. But whether you want to talk peak, longevity, or one-on-one battles, Dirk has him on all counts.

[LkrFan]

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

Good big homie. at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

[Killakobe81]

It's wide enough that it shouldn't be a debate. Dirk is somewhere in the top 15-20 players of all time. KG is somewhere in the top 25-30. KG is a great player who had a legendary career. But whether you want to talk peak, longevity, or one-on-one battles, Dirk has him on all counts.

Come on though he is not >>> better ...
Even if you say he is ten spots higher ll time when you are talking these all time greats I am not even sure Lebron is >>> Better than Bird but I might say yes he is. Definitely more than just > but its kinda disrespectful to how great these players are.
I can get you feel he is clearly better and I agree but no need to exaggerate.

[Killakobe81]

Good big homie. at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

[LkrFan]

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

Word!!

[ambchang]

Good big homie. at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

Who says that? Kobe is top 10-15. Harden is like top 40 to 60

[LkrFan]

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

Word!!

[ambchang]

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

I agree with you that Kobe scored more. That’s pretty cut and dry but I’d say bird was a better scorer, or offensive player. One reason why bird was so clutch is that he can score whenever and however he wanted. As an offensive player bird was a much better shot creator for th team as well.

Though at one time I disliked Bird, Isiah, HAkeem, Jordan and Duncan due to rivalry reasons I Would go to war with either of my 1st or 2nd teams and feel i can beat almost anyone ...
That first team may lack 3 point shooting but the post play and passing would be spectacular. The sky hook, MJ fade away, the magic no look and baby sky hook, Lebon and MJ in transition. Magic and Lebron's vision.

The 2nd team gains Bird's shooting and Hakeem and shaq on the low and mid post would be filty. IF steph wins the le this year I may bump Zeke and that 2nd team becomes almost as deadly as the 1st team it only lacks wing defenders but having prime HAkeem and Kobe helps offset that. steph and Bird shooting 3's would be lethal.

I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Awesome d. Great o. Passing through the wazoo and minimum ego.

And amb please no long Kobe debate ...
I am happy to argue Magic and Bird but Kobe's rank is freaking boring.
Maybe I have him to high and you to low due to bias on both sides but who cares?
I can cherrypick advanced metrics and traditional counting ones to definitively argue Kobe is better you will choose others and say well Bird's back cut short his prime.
No one really cares.

I thought your bird over Magic take was interesting ...because you asked why is there a consensus magic was better when you felt otherwise at least that was new and fresh (though I knew you tend to infalte Bird and Moses) but I have no interest in an another Achilles debate.

Buddy, you brought up Kobe in this thing. Bird and magic, I can see why people pick magic but bird was just clearly better. I think he was one of only three players to win three straight MVPs. Sure Jordan and lebron should have but they didn’t.

Birds vision and leadership was unmatched. The way he sees the game develop is reallly one of a kind. Bird was a better rebounder, just as good a passer, better scorer, better shooter and better defender. Magic was the better ball handler.

Birds injuries hurt him I agree but his peak was great.

Bonus question for you Amb ...
IS bird the greatest rebounding SF ever? Not counting guys like Chuck, Elgin, Rodman even Lebron who hybrid PF/SF ...

But of true traditional SF's like Pippen, Worthy, Nique, TMAC, KD, Pierce etc. is Bird the best rebounder by far you ever seen play SF? Looking at the numbers it confirmed what I remembered but he was even better at rebounding than I recall ...

If you say traditional sf then yes. But you can argue bird was really a ball handling PF. I guess. Obviously Forman and Barkley were better but I think that’s it. Elgin had more but that day and age was very different. Bird couldn’t even jump and he gets 10 a game.

[Killakobe81]

I agree with you that Kobe scored more. That’s pretty cut and dry but I’d say bird was a better scorer, or offensive player. One reason why bird was so clutch is that he can score whenever and however he wanted. As an offensive player bird was a much better shot creator for th team as well.



I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Awesome d. Great o. Passing through the wazoo and minimum ego.



Buddy, you brought up Kobe in this thing. Bird and magic, I can see why people pick magic but bird was just clearly better. I think he was one of only three players to win three straight MVPs. Sure Jordan and lebron should have but they didn’t.

Birds vision and leadership was unmatched. The way he sees the game develop is reallly one of a kind. Bird was a better rebounder, just as good a passer, better scorer, better shooter and better defender. Magic was the better ball handler.

Birds injuries hurt him I agree but his peak was great.



If you say traditional sf then yes. But you can argue bird was really a ball handling PF. I guess. Obviously Forman and Barkley were better but I think that’s it. Elgin had more but that day and age was very different. Bird couldn’t even jump and he gets 10 a game.

yes my all time teams are ...
based more on best i have ever seen not team "fit".
i cheated by choosing Hakeem as a PF buy felt he was more deserving than Malone, KG or even Dirk.

Pippen and stockton are great but neither are best at their respective positions ...

[Arcadian]

I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team.

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.

[spurraider21]

stockton was great, but cmon guys curry is a 2x MVP... stockton never finished higher than 8th

i know nash also has 2 mvp's, so thats a knock on that argument...

[Killakobe81]

Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team.

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.

i also take Steph over Stock and he is cose to surpassing zeke on my list.

[ambchang]

yes my all time teams are ...
based more on best i have ever seen not team "fit".
i cheated by choosing Hakeem as a PF buy felt he was more deserving than Malone, KG or even Dirk.

Pippen and stockton are great but neither are best at their respective positions ...

Totally agree. Every team need some role players.

Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team.

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.

stockton was great, but cmon guys curry is a 2x MVP... stockton never finished higher than 8th

i know nash also has 2 mvp's, so thats a knock on that argument...

Yeah I guess you guys are right. I’m over thinking this as I want a guy to compensate for magics defense. Pippen should be able to check anyone anyways.

[Killakobe81]

Totally agree. Every team need some role players.





Yeah I guess you guys are right. I’m over thinking this as I want a guy to compensate for magics defense. Pippen should be able to check anyone anyways.

And i get your bird love ...but come on Lebron plays the clock controlling ball dependent game because he has to put him on a team with kareem duncan magic etc he adapts. magic and duncan are both unselfish and great leaders ...

[Killakobe81]

Also imagine Amb magic dribbling up with prime duncan in the mid post on the left and kareem seetling in one the mid post right in his favorite sky hook spot. Magic feeds to lebron at the key cuts and screens for Jordan who is stopping that? Lebron or magic making choices between a Tim bank, a cap sky hook or a Jordan slash or fade away?

[ambchang]

And i get your bird love ...but come on Lebron plays the clock controlling ball dependent game because he has to put him on a team with kareem duncan magic etc he adapts. magic and duncan are both unselfish and great leaders ...

Not sure about lebron adapting. I think the rest of the team adapts to him. The thing is lebron with the ball is better than anyone else with the ball.