How so? Again, because your arguement is re ed, sorry.
San Antonio has had how many minor league football teams? All with bad attedance... yet we can fill the Dome for a team that isn't ours, with very little notice or time to prepare.
As for baseball, the Missions aren't some upstart team or been around for 5-10 years. They've been here longer than the Spurs. San Antonio has also had a strong history with baseball.
That's great, you have an opinion, you expressed it. So lets move on.I just don't see SA supporting a 70-112 ballclub for 81 games, which is about what you'll see without a salary cap in one of the smallest MLB markets in the country.
Well, your opinion that MLB would thrive in SA is based on nothing more than there being 2.3 million people here in 2010. We saw how well having 4 million people worked for Miami.How idiotic is it use a minor league teams attendance to then judge whether a city can or can not support a pro sports team.
I don't know whether or not it will thrive. I don't, Neither does anyone else on the face of this planet.
The only one true way to find out.
So lets ing do it!
County wants a local hook for Marlins
Web Posted: 03/06/2006 12:00 AM CST
Tom Orsborn
Express-News Staff Writer
Any potential deal with the Florida Marlins to relocate to San Antonio must include the promise that the baseball team seek local investors, County Judge Nelson Wolff said Sunday.
"I've talked to them about it," said Wolff, who is leading efforts to lure the Marlins to San Antonio. "We didn't go over how much the local investors would own, but it has to be a significant piece.
"There won't be a deal without it."
New York art dealer Jeffrey Loria bought the Marlins in 2002 for $158.5 million from John Henry, who now owns the Boston Red Sox. Loria owns 90 percent of the Marlins, according to published reports.
Wolff said his first conversation with Marlins president David Samson included discussion of the ownership situation. Samson is also Loria's stepson.
"For me to go to the voters for approval of a stadium, there has to be people attached to the Marlins from San Antonio and not just an owner who lives in New York and does not have a feel for San Antonio," Wolff said. "David knows that."
Asked if he has identified possible local investors, Wolff said: "There is an interest, let's just put it that way."
A Marlins spokesman said Samson would "encourage and expect to have" local ownership in the club should it move to San Antonio.
Wolff is expected to present the Miami-based team with a stadium-financing plan this week that calls for an extension of the hotel and car rental taxes voters approved in 1999 to pay to build the AT&T Center.
If negotiations between the county and the Marlins intensify, Wolff said he would try to put the measure on the November ballot.
But it won't get to that point unless the Marlins prove they are serious about attracting South Texas investors.
"Local ownership is a key," Wolff said. "I'm not saying it all has to be local ownership, but a significant part has to be, so we believe we have some loyalty to the city."
Samson visited San Antonio in early December, meeting with Wolff and Mayor Phil Hardberger. The Marlins also have toured Portland, Ore., and talked with officials from Norfolk, Va.
Wolff said Major League Baseball has given its blessing to the Marlins' talks with Bexar County. The Marlins say they would prefer to stay in South Florida, but stadium talks there have stalled.
The Marlins have a lease at Dolphins Stadium, home of Miami's NFL franchise, through 2007. The deal includes a series of one-year options that run through 2010.
"Major League Baseball won't come down here and invest a lot of money if they don't think it will work here," Wolff said. "Early indications are they do think it will work."
Wolff said that stands in contrast to the NFL's efforts to prevent the New Orleans Saints from moving to San Antonio, which NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue characterized as a market too small for a league franchise.
Hurricane Katrina forced the Saints to spend last season in San Antonio, where they played three home games at the Alamodome before returning to Louisiana.
"The NFL never had a high opinion of us," Wolff said. "A lot of it, I think, has to do with the Cowboys having such a strong hold on this market. , everyone is a Cowboys fanatic here."
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met...l.832ca6a.html
Well, not only population-wise in 4 years, but also, San Antonio income will be up as well with more big corporations. San Antonio is booming. As the Mayor said, in the future, we will look back on these years, as San Antonio's Golden Years. I believe that's true.
I get it. Everyone who doesn't share your opinion is gay or re ed. Glad we got that out of the way.
Now let's see if you can answer some other stuff without being derogatory: San Antonio has a Double-A baseball team that can't outdraw Tulsa at the gate with less than 150,000 fans a year. Austin (Round Rock) and Sacramento are the two top draws in Triple-A with over 700,000 fans a year - both cities smaller than SA. I'm still waiting for the answer on how San Antonio is going to meet or exceed 1.85 million in attendance when the AHL team does better than the current minor league affiliate. Are these people that are relocating to San Antonio on your growth plan the ones that will fill the Marlins new stadium 81 times a year? Unlike Portland and Vegas, or Austin and Sacramento, the residents in Bexar County right now won't even go fill a 6K seat minor league field.
Also, if SA is so ready for a major league baseball team, why didn't they go get the orphaned Expos when they were playing in that bandbox in Puerto Rico half the season? Washington barely wants the new Senators as it is.
Now I want to make my opinion real clear on this. I don't want SA to get the Marlins because when baseball fails, whatever support the town drummed up for an NFL team will be swept under the rug and forgotten. No matter how aggressive growth projections are for that area, it will still be a small market compared to New York, Los Angeles, SF, Chicago, etc. And with no salary cap and an owner like Jeff Loria (the man who ed over the city of Montreal, population 3.7 million - go read up on the guy), not only is the town destined to get bent over by this greedy SOB, the team is going to suck like all the other Milwaukees of MLB.
Don't kid yourself - you know that SA doesn't support losing teams. With no cap and an owner that finally got the stadium deal he wanted, the team will never be a powerhouse. It'll be like every other small market team - good when the farm system grown players get to their mid-20's and make a run, then ty when free agency hits and they go to the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, or Giants.
Why do you hate San Antonio?
Because it has a bigger MSA than Brokeback Mountain, and it scored higher on the Wonderlic.
Here's something I think I can offer to the discussion, well, the rational one at least.
Here are a few reasons I don't think the Missions draw as they should.
1. The stadium is pretty ty now. From talking with people that work for the city as well as the Missions management group, the city just doesn't want to give (or sell) the stadium to the Missions (and the Dave Elmore group) so that they can upgrade and renovate the stadium since the city doesn't have the money to do so.
The team and ownership want to build the stadium up - at least to try and fix what's broken, but the city won't (and really can't) pony up the money for it since it is still their venue. All maintenence, IIRC, was done by city employees.
2. You have to admit, the stadium is in a really ty part of town. Sorry, but that's just the way that is. It's not the safest venue in the city.
These two thoughts are from my two years of observation as a reporter covering the Missions.
I have already informed my employers that if this (by some miracle) should happen, I will be in the stands at the ballpark every possible chance. I will always be an Atlanta Braves fan in my heart...but I would sure go see the local team play; , I'd have season tickets to the Missions right now if it weren't 50 miles from my house to their stadium.
I wouldn't mind the MLB over the NFL. Bring 'em on.
mysa"San Antonio has historically thought less of itself than it should," Wolff said, adding, "whether we like it or not, sports is a major element in our life."
I love the pessimists in this thread. They really help reinforce the idea that San Antonio is too small town minded. Thanks, man. It’s a waste that Toyota is here. We should have waited for Honda or Nissan. Toyota blows.
SA would support a ty baseball team no more or less than it would support a ty NFL or NBA team.
j-6, your idea of using minor league teams as a gauge is a good approach. You also say you would yourself out to the Saints. They're a losing team. If San Antonio doesn't support losing teams the Saints will fail here and like the Marlins supposed failure would equally ruin any chances of getting any other professional sports franchise to locate here. Three pro games here were fine but what about season after season of losing.
I go to a few games there every summer and i've never had a bad experience. It seems to have a family atmosphere. It's in no more a ty area than AT&T Center.
Here's the full article I linked above (didn't see it posted):
Spurs churning water to spook the Marlins?
Web Posted: 03/03/2006 12:00 AM CST
Elizabeth Allen
Express-News Staff Writer
While Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff obsesses over bringing Major League Baseball to San Antonio, the Spurs, with the help of the Greater San Antonio Chamber of Commerce president, have been quietly sending out the message that this town's not big enough for two major sports teams.
Along with researching ticket prices and keeping in touch with Florida Marlins president David Samson, Wolff has staff rebutting a Bizjournals.com article saying the San Antonio market doesn't have the personal income to support a second team.
That's because that article is getting a lot of circulation among the town's major corporate players, e-mailed by the Spurs' Vice President Leo Gomez and Greater Chamber president Joe Krier.
Both Krier and Gomez distanced themselves from the article, but each acknowledged sending it to numerous people in February.
"I don't know that I agree with that story's assessment and conclusions," Krier said Thursday. "Oh gosh, well, my view is people should see all of this kind of stuff."
Krier added that any attempt to bring a new professional team to San Antonio should not threaten the Spurs' corporate support. The chamber also dropped Wolff's request last year that it gauge corporate support for a new team, he said, as the chances for snagging the New Orleans Saints began to fade.
Gomez also said he just was passing along information.
"I'm not putting my stamp on it, and I certainly don't believe that," Gomez said of the article. "I simply distributed it ... It certainly wasn't written by me."
T.J. Connolly, a spokesman for HollyHills Development — which wants to bring the Saints to San Antonio, as well as the Indy Racing League — called Krier's and Gomez' statements "doubletalk."
"I'm in PR. Believe me, we're masters of doubletalk in PR," Connolly said. "The e-mail speaks for itself."
The Feb. 13 article analyzed how much total personal income sports markets could spare for another professional sports team. San Antonio didn't make the cut, according to the study. Baseball needs a lot of personal income from its community in part because it has so many home games, the study noted.
The county's rebuttal took issue with the study's source of the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis. The study's 2003 statistics are outdated and ignore both recent and promised job growth, according to the rebuttal.
Its economic areas define the San Antonio market as including Eagle Pass but leaving out Laredo, Corpus Christi and McAllen, said the county report, which supports Wolff's contention that this town is big enough for major league baseball.
Wolff would not speculate on why Gomez and Krier circulated the article. But he said he was glad they did, because he's sending his own research to the same crowd.
"San Antonio has historically thought less of itself than it should," Wolff said, adding, "whether we like it or not, sports is a major element in our life."
But he does like it. Wolff, a former pitcher in the Spanish-American League, had voiced support for Mayor Phil Hardberger's attempts to land the New Orleans Saints. But he never gave it the energy that he's pouring into the Marlins.
He provided letters of support to the Marlins from various local groups. Despite Krier's distribution of the e-mail, one of those letters is from the Greater Chamber, publicly stating its support for pro baseball.
That letter, signed by Chairman Steve Seidel, says the chamber "is aggressively committed to supporting Judge Wolff in this effort ... Our goal is that if your franchise relocates to San Antonio, it would meet with nothing but success."
But the unofficial message, coming from the Spurs, is understandable, Connolly said.
"Leo's paid to not invite anyone else to the party," he said. However, Krier's part "bewildered" him. "I would believe that the Greater Chamber president should be actively embracing the diversification of professional sports in San Antonio."
I wouldn't mind the MLB over the NFL. Bring 'em on.
mysa
I love the pessimists in this thread. They really help reinforce the idea that San Antonio is too small town minded. Thanks, man. It’s a waste that Toyota is here. We should have waited for Honda or Nissan. Toyota blows.
SA would support a ty baseball team no more or less than it would support a ty NFL or NBA team.
j-6, your idea of using minor league teams as a gauge is a good approach. You also say you would yourself out to the Saints. They're a losing team. If San Antonio doesn't support losing teams the Saints will fail here and like the Marlins supposed failure would equally ruin any chances of getting any other professional sports franchise to locate here. Three pro games here were fine but what about season after season of losing.
I go to a few games there every summer and i've never had a bad experience. It seems to have a family atmosphere. It's in no more a ty area than AT&T Center.
Don't get me wrong, the game experience is great for the resources they have, it's outside the stadium that I think is unsafe.
I know of Missions employees who have had car break-ins during games and during the daytime there.
I think it's more (for me, anyway) that it's so damn far away from anything north of downtown ... I'd take my kids a lot if it were closer. Baseball games are pretty cheap.
Taco is not a big baseball fan............that is all
other than the fact that the marlins would win once they got here, some of you are on the mark.
remember this franchise rebuilt in a small financial market all the way up to a world series team and a winning team the next two years after.
so forget about the losing team thing, this ownership has shown the commitement to winning needed in any viable market.
the other points are very valid, however this one is a farce.
I think that a few of you bring up great points. Simply, put, if the Marlins win, year after year, people will go. Then an NFL team will come a knockin'. Personally, I'd still rather have an NFL team. But of course LA is a priority for an expansion, so I'll take the MLB team over nothing.
Baseball will fail in SA. There are EIGHTY ONE ing homegames. The season ticket sales will be for .
Thank you NoLimit for entering this discussion with those key points. Not only were they convincing but what really struck me was how articulate you expressed said key points. Bravo!
Downtown, it has a chance. Even Duncan thinks it would be re ed to not build it downtown.
I love minor league baseball.
I had tickets to a missions game one time & I couldn't find the stadium, never made it there.
Thank you for your reasonable post. I guarantee if the Saints moved to SA, I'd come down from Fort Worth at least twice a year to games. The atmosphere was like going to a college game in the game against the Falcons I went to. And I'd be a fan since I've never adopted an NFL team like I've kept the Spurs close over the years. Besides, what better bandwagon to jump on than your so-called "small market" hometown's?
And there's the problem. After seeing firsthand once, and reading quite a bit secondhand how the other two games compared, I completely believe that SA could support the Saints in a way that only a real Spurs fan could appreciate. Y'know, when you strike up a random conversation with a lady at the drugstore about if Manu's ankle is finally healed. People just don't so this in D-FW.
But I wonder if the town likes baseball enough to put an average of 25,000 seats in the stands over eighty times a year. Baseball's sort of a long term love affair kind of sport, with the patient play, the 100 years of history, and the lengthy season. Football is instant gratification, a sixteen game sprint followed by a five week slugfest. Sure, you need to draw 60+K eight times a year or so, but the NFL is the shiniest toy in the box.
I understand the argument concerning the growing city population, and I also know that the NFL granted an expansion team to Dallas when less than 800,000 people lived here in the sixties. Support absolutely trumps population - even with 1.9 million residents. 81 games in which a ty crowd outdraws a Spurs game in San Antonio's terms - and which is still below average - is just wishful thinking until you try to get Austin involved.
Remember, if baseball flops, the NFL will take notice and SA won't get either league. The odds are much betting better on the NFL and hoping that the growth continues into one day becoming a three-team town.
Last edited by j-6; 03-07-2006 at 12:41 AM.
Ummm..... as usual, most of you have no clue.
I love MLB. I try to make the Trek every year to go catch a few games, when I lived in Denver, I went to the Rockies games 3 times a week. The tickets were cheap, I had maybe one soda and paid for parking. It wasn't that big of a deal.
Now, back to the Minor League . Look, I know what real baseball is like and my ass ain't setting foot in Nelson Wolfe Stadium. I went once. There were more errors than my old Coed softball team.
Minor league baseball doesn't compare to seeing a MLB game where there are legends playing every night....
Get in real already and compare and contrast that matters.
Minor League Baseball = Drunk Softball League.
I admire your enthusiasm and in all sincereity hope that at least 24,999 other people in SA feel the same way. But I still would bet on the NFL and take baseball further down the line. After seeing the plights of the Expos/ Senators and now the Marlins, I'd bet further if SA proves to be a rabid supporter of two franchises that there won't be a problem getting some disgruntled MLB team to come to SA sooner or later.
Yo! That was a good one Buddy.
Almost as good as my knock-knock jokes, ya know.
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