The truth of the matter is that the current system works too conveniently for everybody for any real change in immigration to occur: big business and small business have their cheap labor that they don't have to report on their taxes; illegal immigrants get a paycheck and are able to put food on the table for their families; Americans continue to have someone to mow their yards, clean their toilets and bus their tables.
I guarantee not a damn thing will get done on this issue in Congress before the November elections--it's just a wedge issue to turn out the GOP vote in 2006, only it backfired on them. The Democrats don't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole either. After November, it will quietly fade into the background, and we'll be on to whatever next issue the administration wants us to focus on.
You may be right, but now that the right-wing spin machine has gotten a hold of the story and the wing-nuts are out in full force over the illegal immigration issue, it may not go away as conveniently as they would like it too. I think your right on point about this being a wedge issue that has misfired on Republicans though. Now let’s see if the Democrats can use this to their political advantage in November.
I'm honestly quite tired of the people who continously spit out catch phrases on either side of this debate. I'm tired of those idiots who spout off about rewarding crime and I'm tired about the idiots who spout off about how being a human isn't illegal.
The worst thing about this entire dispute is that one side is wrong and one side is right but neither ing side knows why! They have their heads so far up their asses that no one can see the actual issues inolved with the situation and their political leaders and talking heads do nothing but continously muddy the water with idiotic catch phrases and sound bites that simply lead the ignorant masses further down their paths.
The bottom line is that you're not going to deport 11 million people so stop ing about rewarding crime. Deal with the reality of the situation and realize that these people aren't going anywhere.
Second of all, unless you fix the damn border and make sure people STOP coming over illegaly, there is no point to granting amnesty to anyone because you're just going to see wave after wave after wave of new illegals coming over to find work.
And not a damn productive thing is going to be done. Not in an election year where the Republicans are about to be fleeced. Not with a president who although he actually has decent ideas involving a guest worker program he couldn't get congress to buy him a new set of pens at the moment. And not with Democrats in an election year where they are about to fleece the Republicans.
Its a godamn big issue, but not a damn thing is going to be done about it and chances are that within a couple of months the protests will die down and we'll return to our quiet and ty status quo.
I agreeyou're not going to deport 11 million people so stop ing about rewarding crime. Deal with the reality of the situation and realize that these people aren't going anywhere.
Second of all, unless you fix the damn border and make sure people STOP coming over illegaly, there is no point to granting amnesty to anyone because you're just going to see wave after wave after wave of new illegals coming over to find work.
Yes we do. Any illegal from anywhere, I have a problem with. Maybe
you don't but I do. And those that come thru the seaport or airport come
on valid visas and overstay them. They too should be sent home. Don't
make a racial issue out of something or try and put words in my mouth.
You, sir, are the racist. I was the one defending a person who those
on this board was calling a coconut, if you remember correctly.
Ok asshat, how are you going to deport 11 million people? Lets see if your senile ass can come up with a solution?
aiding and abetting a coconut is as bad as being one yourself.
A government can track down and send home the people who overstay visas if it cares enough to try. It also can keep them from coming back by denying them another visa.
Tracking down 11 million people, rounding them up, and shipping them to Mexico, only to have them cross back illegally days later is a much different proposition.
It's not a racial issue, but rather a logistical one.
It's not unlike trying to stop people from speeding. Having laws is all well and good, but when they're unenforceable, and and written in such a way that can only make them unenforceable, they're impotent. Our immigration laws are impotent. And you'd be surpised how few of the people that have the power in Washington want to change that.
Oh, and go yourself.
terrance and phillip?You, sir, are the racist
This is really the scary issue. Both sides blowing and talking and nothing
will be done. Which in itself, if they would just make INS enforce present
law, is not bad. Unfortunately, business has developed a "en lment"
complex like the welfare group have. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys
deal with Jerry Jones. The Marlins deal that Hardberger and Wolfe want,
and Toyota. There are some drastic changes coming in future years and
I am afraid they are not going to be good. I wont be around to witness
them but a lot of folks on this board will and I am not sure you are going
to enjoy them. Government is not a profit making organization. They
have only one place to get money: from us. Always remember that.
When you say Government should do this or that, you and your neighbors
are paying the freight.
Another one of your stupid, childish and impossible remarks. And
an indication of you inability to hold a decent conversation.
The Texas HandbookCENSUS AND CENSUS RECORDS. In 1744 the population of Texas, according to Henderson Yoakum'sqv History of Texas (1855), was about 1,500, centered largely around San Antonio. There were a few small settlements on the Rio Grande and in East Texas near Nacogdoches. An official Spanish census of December 31, 1792, records 247 male mulattoes, 167 female mulattoes, 15 male Negroes, and 19 female Negroes in a total population for Texas of 1,617 males and 1,375 females. The estimated population of Texas was 7,000 in 1806, and it was not much greater fifteen years later when Stephen F. Austin founded his colony on the Brazos River. In 1826 a census of the Austin colony showed 1,800 persons, 443 of whom were slaves. The colonization period of 1821-35 brought many settlers; the population was estimated at 20,000 in 1831. In 1834 Juan N. Almonte,qv after a visit to Texas, placed the population at 24,700, including slaves. In 1836 there were probably 5,000 blacks, 30,000 Anglo-Americans, 3,470 Hispanics, and 14,200 Indians in Texas. A population of about 50,000 is indicated by the vote for the first president of the republic in 1836, and the vote of 1845, the last year of the republic, indicated a population of 125,000. In 1847 a partial enumeration was made showing a population of 135,000, of whom 39,000 were slaves. In a census of the state for 1848 the total population was given as 158,356, of whom 42,455 were slaves.
The first United States census was taken in 1850, when the Texas population comprised 154,034 whites, 397 free Negroes, and 58,161 slaves. The second United States census in 1860 gave Texas a population of 604,215. Growth in population was rapid until the Civil War;qv the decade of 1860-70 shows the smallest increase of population of any of the decennial periods for which enumeration of population has been made. Between 1870 and 1880 the population of Texas increased 94.5 percent to reach a total of 1,591,749.
Seems to me that slaves and Indians (uncounted in census) were at least half the population in Texas when it became a Republic.
Yeah, but it wasn't because they were Mexican. Lot's of them got paid for their land or signed horrible leases. Lots Sold their minerals for next to nothing and sold the surface. Wasn't restricted to just Mexicans or minorities. A lot of white people got screwed long term too, but let me tell you that little piece of money looked really good to them at the time.
As far as proving ownership of royalties or land 70 years later and hating the family with their name on everything... tough?
Mexicans are driving all the white people out of South Texas now anyway. Turnabout is fair play. It is impossible to get a fair trial in South Texas now if you are WHITE or affluent in any way.
Please don't talk to me about injustice.
I don't disagree with that at all.
The descendants of slaves are still around somewhere. Lots are still in Texas. Many migrated to the North and West looking for work in the 1920's and 1930's. The Plains Indians who dominated the land now called Texas for a long time, either were victims of genocide, or have their descendants deposited on reservations, or have blended into the general population.
A small number of them intermarried with Hispanics. But that's not the heritage of the majority of Latinos.
what is the heritage of the majority of Latinos?
OK, I was too broad. That is not the heritage of the majority of Mexican immigrants in Texas. Most Mexican immigrants either are of Amerindian origin from one of the tribes of central-southern Mexico, or are mestizo between Amerindian and Spanish origins.
In South Texas, you will see a lot of Coahuiltecan mestizos.
Last edited by Extra Stout; 04-10-2006 at 04:42 PM.
ROFL
i hate that word
BS they want to be here legally- they want amnesty for breaking the law. They are illegal immigrants and they started outby breaking the law- that is a bad beginning. They need to be punished according to the law that is on the books and sent back to Mexico - When will Vincente Fox man the up and handle his own problems instead of pawning them off on America ? How can Mexicans cry for amnesty and reform when the laws of Mexico are far worse than those of the USA with regards to immigration? These people want to be legal residents of these great United States than do it the same way my forefathers did - REGISTER PUTAS. Why should our economy suffer at the hands of illegal aliens ? Why should the USA be forced to support Mexico as well with no benefit? Mexico is so corrupt as a country that nobody can save that place - I mean I know why they want out but do it the right way. Pay taxes - not sales taxes but federal and state income taxes - property taxes -capital gains - do it the right way. I don't care if I have to pay $1 more for a head of lettuce. Stop whining about how Mexicans take jobs gringos won't -- it isn't that the gringo's wont take the jobs - it is that they won't do it for $2.00 an hour.
This is an ugly issue and a lot of these people who are marching actually believe in the "reconquista" B.S. Like we stole their land - whatever - we took it - bought it -- singed a treaty for it - who cares. The borders are established and if you bunch of wusses want it back -- tough.
These marches are a joke. People running around whining about amnesty and reform - well can I go and committ a felony and be pardoned for it like the illegals ? I mean - can I go steal a 61 inch HD TV and just get a pass? Lets see - they are here illegally - they trespass - they don't pay income taxes I mean there are a whole slew of crimes being committed here that the illegal immigrants want amnesty for --
March - wear your white shirts and carry your american flags since the nation called you our for representing the corrupt red / green bandera de tu triste pais -- the place where you dont even want to live ? o ?? o ? La Raza -- well as long as we are in the usa and not in mexico - we want the RAZA - keep that corruption in that waste land of a country Mehico.
You want to immigrate -- all for it - I support it - do it legally - the border crossed you ??? BS -- you crossed it -- ILLEGALLY - laws are laws and heaven forbid some white dude cross the border into MEHICO illegally. watch out for that - but why would they unless they were running from the law -- oh must be why 29% of those prisons consists of illegals heh ?
Keep it real in your protests -- don't cry foul and call all those who don't want illegal aliens in the USA be they mexican - dominican., al quaida, iranian, cuban whatever - don't throw out the race card. How can you throw out the race card when you walk around rocking daddy yankee and screaming LA RAZA ? how does that work ? if that is not the most ethnocentric hypocritical ploy ever -
Sec24Row7, your sig is completely outdated.
Continue.
Now here is something I can agree with:
Immigration Debate Is Killing GOP
John McIntyre
Mon Apr 10, 9:19 AM ET
Republicans face a growing disaster on immigration. Right now the GOP is sailing on a dangerous course where they are increasingly turning off two pillars of their new majority. The first pillar is the talk-radio portion of the Republican base led by Rush Limbaugh (and the many who have followed in his wake) that provide a tremendous amount of energy to the conservative movement. The second pillar the GOP is endangering is the Hispanic community, the single largest growing demographic in American politics. In 2004, President Bush increased his share of the Hispanic vote to around 40% nationally. Had John Kerry been able win the same percentage of the Hispanic vote as Al Gore in 2000, he would have won the presidency.
The problem for Republicans is they are split and not speaking with one voice. The result is that they are managing to turn off both of these vital cons uencies. Beltway pundits who casually throw aside the concern of the conservative base on this issue make a mistake and underestimate voter intensity on the illegal immigration problem. For a conservative base already demoralized by a Republican-led Congress incapable of cutting spending and frustrated by a war that is either portrayed as floundering (or actually is floundering), abdication of responsibility on the illegal immigration mess may be the last straw that compels many conservatives to sit on their hands this November.
If you think Republicans are picking up support in the Hispanic community for how they are dealing with immigration, you'd be wrong. The Hispanic community is focusing on the severely PR-challenged House bill which has sparked enormous public demonstrations -- political energy that will not be helpful for Republicans this fall. It doesn't matter that an overwhelmingly majority of House Republicans voted to take the felon language out of the Sensenbrenner bill but were defeated by Democrats who cynically (but shrewdly) voted to keep the language intact. Rep. Peter King (news, bio, voting record) tried to explain on FOX News Sunday that the House bill is being distorted and humanitarians aiding illegals wouldn't be prosecuted, but it is too late. The House bill is killing Republicans in the Hispanic community.
So right now Republicans have managed to create a political environment on immigration that further demoralizes their base while at the same time angers the largest growing electoral demographic critical to a long-term GOP majority. Is it any wonder Senator Schumer implored Harry Reid to scuttle the Senate "compromise"? The last thing the Democrats want, from a political standpoint, is to resolve the immigration issue.
Even though Schumer and many Democrats don't want an immigration bill, Republicans should be happy the Senate compromise went down in flames. If something like the Senate bill were to become law it would be a disaster for Republicans because the conservative base will revolt if a Republican President and Congress attempts a rerun of the Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty of 20 years ago. When you strip it all down, that is essentially what the Senate compromise McCain and Kennedy were crowing about last week would be.
It would be counterproductive to suggest there are easy answers to our broken immigration system. There aren't. Any solution that expects to pass, and to have the backing of the country, means there will have to be compromise on all sides. If the need for good public policy can't get the Republicans to come together and get something done, then maybe fear of losing their majorities in Congress might compel some real leadership.
Unlike the Social Security stalemate, a compromise is possible, but it needs to be a compromise between McCain and Kyl, not McCain and Kennedy. Republican leaders should try and get as many Democrats on board as possible, but with Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the White House; Republicans have an obligation to lead irrespective of whether the Democrats wish to cooperate.
With an understanding going in that each side is going to have to give up something they deem non-negotiable, here is a rough outline around which a deal could be formed:
- it needs to be made clear (particularly to the Hispanic community) that the problem is illegal immigration not legal immigration.
-the flow of illegal immigrants has to be stopped. This is not about hiring x thousand more border agents or throwing more money at the problem. First, this means building a fence and securing the border. And second, fines and prison for employers and business owners that hire illegals. Law enforcement needs to be focused at the border and then within the country on employers, not the workers. The fact that you will not stop the illegal flow 100% misses the point and ignores the 90%-99% you will stop.
-the number of legal immigration slots needs to dramatically be increased. (Again, it has to be emphasized over and over that the problem is with illegal immigration, not legal immigration.)
-there needs to be some pathway to citizenship provided for the 11 million illegals here right now.
The right is going to cry amnesty at any process that puts illegals on a pathway to citizenship while still being able to live in the U.S. The left is going to balk at a real fence and shutting down the border. But liberals who say they are for enforcement and securing the border are going to have a hard time opposing the only real way to secure the border. And the only way conservatives will stomach what is effectively a 2nd amnesty is if they know a fence will go up and the illegal flow will grind to a halt.
With the President's leadership a compromise along these lines is possible. However, right now Bush and the GOP Congress appear rudderless; hoping gerrymandered House districts and not quite enough Republican Senate seats in play will keep them in power. Unfortunately for conservatives, it looks like they would rather play those odds than lead and grow their majority.
A fence? Like the one in my backyard?
pfffffffft....try a brick wall, 2 stories high, and 10 ft in the ground. then I will believe it.
Usually, these things are like 10-15 feet high, in duplicate or triplicate, unclimbabale, topped with razor wire, with sentry roads running in between each wall.
It's not a garden fence.
Molly Ivins: Immigration 101
AUSTIN, Texas (Creators Syndicate) -- Immigration 101 for beginners and non-Texans.
In 1983, I was a judge at the Terlingua Chili Cookoff, and my memory of the events may not be perfect -- for example, for years I've been claiming Jimmy Carter was president at the time, but that's the kind of detail one often loses track of in Terlingua.
Anyway, it was '83 or some year right around there when we held The Fence climbing contest. See, people talked about building The Fence back then, too. The Fence along the Mexican border. To keep Them out.
At the time, the proposal was quite specific -- a 17-foot cyclone fence with bob wire at the top. So a test fence was built at Terlingua, and the First-Ever Terlingua Memorial Over, Under or Through Mexican Fence Climbing Contest took place. Prize: a case of Lone Star beer. Winning time: 30 seconds.
I tell this story to make the one single point about the border and immigration we know to be true: The Fence will not work. No fence will work. The Great darn Wall of China will not work. Do not build a fence. It will not work. They will come anyway. Over, under or through.
Some of you think a fence will work because Israel has one. Israel is a very small country. Anyone who says a fence can fix this problem is a demagogue and an ass.
Numero Two-o, should you actually want to stop Mexicans and OTMs (other than Mexicans) from coming to the United States, here is how to do it: Find an illegal worker at a large corporation. This is not difficult -- brooms and mops are big tip-offs. Then put the CEO of that corporation in prison for two or more years for violating the law against hiring illegal workers.
Got it? You can also imprison the corporate official who actually hired the illegal and, just to make sure, put some Betty Sue Billups -- housewife, preferably one with blonde hair in a flip -- in the joint for a two-year stretch for hiring a Mexican gardener. Thus Americans are reminded that the law says it is illegal to hire illegal workers and that anyone who hires one is responsible for verifying whether or not his or her papers are in order. If you get fooled and one slips by you, too bad, you go to jail anyway. When there are no jobs for illegal workers, they do not come. Got it?
the fence idea stinks
1. the cost
2. you would have to build the fence over at least 80% of the entire border, not just the high traffic areas (usually the mexicans coming over arent mentally re ed and would just go where the fence wasnt)
plus you would have to make sure the mexicans hired to build it, build it from the southside
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