Nash says Bell doesn't deserve to be suspended

[mike detroit]

Oh man, I didn't see this one before... what are you talking about? Nicknames? "Bad Boys" - what would you prefer? "Back-to-back NBA Champion Detroit Pistons" (1989 and 1990)? Laimbeer once tackled Kevin McHale and that had nothing to do with "fighting for position" and pushed Charles Barkley in the back and thrown a punch at him.

You've pretty much made a terrible point that did not address what I said aside from the fact that I cited many sportswriters and media individuals that said he "pushed" not "slammed" Artest in the throat. Don't get me wrong - the paraellel I draw from that situation to this one is that Big Ben (and beer throwing fan) did what everyone in the league wanted to at that time - take Ron Artest down a notch and I don't blame him for it at all. Raja pretty much did the same thing to Kobe last night... sometimes people lose their tempers on the court and grab another guy by the neck - others just try to rape a white girl in Colorado... to each his own. (Ironically, Kobe pulled a similar move to Artest but instead of lying down on the scorer's table with a smug look on his face, he "brushed his shoulders off" and wagged his finger.) I'm surprised a Detroit fan (by that I mean, a fan of the team in Detroit... the place where the biggest brawl in the history of the NBA occurred) would even try to stand up for Kobe in this situation...

haha i hurt your feelings. it's okay, sally, no need to get all pissed off. stop basing your emotions off sports teams and, SURPRISE, you might be less emotional.

also, the ron mexico joke stopped being funny about a year and a half ago, at best. yay for topical user names.x

[Winnipeg_Spur]

The debate here is not whether Bell should be suspended or whether it was a clean play - it is obvious that it was a dirty play and that he deserves the suspension, and it pisses me off that he lost his cool because it's like Kobe had won again. You seem to contradict yourself in this statement - "The NBA doesn't consider the obviousness of an action... [Bowen] doesn't do anything comparable to clotheslining a player..." Clotheslining a player is obvious - that's why it's a suspension - just like going into the stands to punch the wrong Detroit fan means the league will look at the video of your elbow to another player's face towards the end of a blowout game.

See, I disagree with that. Clotheslining a player is a suspension not because it's "obvious" but because it's a dangerous and violent action. If someone does something equally dangerous they'll likely be suspended as well, even if it happens to be more subtle than what Bell did.

Nothing Bowen does, in my mind, warrants a suspension at all, but that doesn't mean he's not a dirty player or has done dirty things (like jump kicking Wally S. and kicking Ray on the ground).

He may be a dirty player (depending on what in your mind entails being dirty) but he must not be nearly as dirty as other players (like Raja) since "nothing Bowen does, in [your] mind, warrants a suspension at all."

My original point was that I hate how the Spurs fans on this board (a) would love Raja Bell and his intensity and don't want to admit it and (b) act like such actions would be so far above any Spurs player.

I would've liked to have Bell on the Spurs going into this season, but after this incident I don't know. I don't really want to rely on a player that has shown he can lose his head and get himself suspended for crucial playoff games. As for (b), I'm not going to say I know the history of every Spurs player in terms of those kinds of fouls, but I will say for Bruce in particular (since he's singled out so much) that he hasn't done anything close to that bad, at least in his career with the Spurs.

Trust me, the type of elbow Artest threw is stuff Kobe does every game, but gets away with it because he's Kobe and Ginobili drew a lot of attention to the action by flailing his entire body like he does all the time.

Yes there definately was a double standard with the Artest suspension, but he's earned that double standard imo. BTW, Bell has been flopping big time all series any time Kobe makes any contact with him, so Manu isn't the only one who draws attention.

[mike detroit]

Yes there definately was a double standard with the Artest suspension, but he's earned that double standard imo.

ding ding ding ding!!! we have a winner. look, mikevick, somebody else figured it out all on their own! when you stop expecting reputation to play no roll in this kind of thing, you'll probably spend less time being a stereotype.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Lakers and Phil run the show........

Stern wont suspend his biggest money maker..

but he will suspend someone who could get in the way of his wetdream fantasy (LA-LA 2nd round)

[RonMexico]

haha i hurt your feelings. it's okay, sally, no need to get all pissed off. stop basing your emotions off sports teams and, SURPRISE, you might be less emotional.

also, the ron mexico joke stopped being funny about a year and a half ago, at best. yay for topical user names.x

No, you didn't hurt my feelings at all - I just didn't know what you were talking about. "Yay" for sticking to the topic of what you quote. I guess because it's the second time in a row you attack me personally rather than the argument I've made, it's something you do when you can't make an intelligent response? I'm really not sure - I wasn't emotional when I wrote back to you, so I don't know where you came up with that one. I'm just a little confused right now because I'm assuming you must have become a Detroit fan around 2003 and don't know who Kevin McHale, Charles Barkely, or Bill Laimbeer are, so you can't comment on what I said.

Ironic still that you called me "emotional" and complained that you laughed when I said Wallace "slammed" him in the troat (although I said "pushed"), because it's such a "hilarious bit of fiction" - whoa, slow down there, Sally... seemed like there was a little emotion there, but I guess we'll just go to making fun of people's avitars and user names because that's how mature arguments are conducted.

So, let's continue - if you look at when I chose my name, it was a year and a half ago when I signed up, so it was topical at that point - I just see no reason to change it now. Rasheed stopped being cool after his 16th tech of the season, so I guess you might want to look into changing that pic of yours... And then to your posts afterwards - "when you stop expecting reputation to play no roll..." the "roll" you refer to there should be "role" as in (according to dictionary.com) "normal or customary activity of a person in a particular social setting; 'what is your role on the team?'"... continuing on to Canadian Spur, "there definately was a double standard..." should be "definitely" as in "definitely spell words right when you want to make a point."

Just want to make sure everyone who has an education past 3rd grade doesn't have problems reading your posts or trying to deduce the points of your argument...

[RonMexico]

See, I disagree with that. Clotheslining a player is a suspension not because it's "obvious" but because it's a dangerous and violent action. If someone does something equally dangerous they'll likely be suspended as well, even if it happens to be more subtle than what Bell did.


He may be a dirty player (depending on what in your mind entails being dirty) but he must not be nearly as dirty as other players (like Raja) since "nothing Bowen does, in [your] mind, warrants a suspension at all."


I would've liked to have Bell on the Spurs going into this season, but after this incident I don't know. I don't really want to rely on a player that has shown he can lose his head and get himself suspended for crucial playoff games. As for (b), I'm not going to say I know the history of every Spurs player in terms of those kinds of fouls, but I will say for Bruce in particular (since he's singled out so much) that he hasn't done anything close to that bad, at least in his career with the Spurs.


Yes there definately was a double standard with the Artest suspension, but he's earned that double standard imo. BTW, Bell has been flopping big time all series any time Kobe makes any contact with him, so Manu isn't the only one who draws attention.

Alright, you make some good points, but also some typical SA homer comments, which I will breakdown. I'm not really singling out Bruce Bowen just based on my whims or what in my mind "entails being dirty." I'm actually basing it off both multiple years of TV viewing and a player-voted SI.com poll in which Bruce Bowen was voted as the "dirtiest player in the league." I think Raja was on that list, which contradicts what you think is my point that Bowen "must not be nearly as dirty as other players (like Raja)" simply because he hasn't been suspended yet.

My point is that Bruce and Raja have played similar games and been equally tenacious defenders (Raja throws a little Ginobili in there with some flops from time to time, but he definitely still receives a pounding in there and doesn't just flop without at least a fair amount of contact, which I've thought since he was with the Mavs and Sixers, so I'll respect him there), but now Raja may have put himself on the Artest-like radar that could lose him the benefit of the doubt in situations where he might kick Ray Allen on the ground (see Bruce Bowen when he actually did that).

As a person, Bruce is so much more cordial and laid back that Raja's intense personality probably is his downfall. Regardless, I don't support the clotheslining in this case just like I didn't last year when Ginobili got jacked against the Nuggets because it can cause serious injury. Also, he wasn't doing it because Kobe "blew past him to the basket" because if you watch the replay over and over again (which I have), you see Kobe give a slap and elbow as he is driving to the hoop and Raja pulls up and slows down for a split second so he can have the leverage to wrap his arm around Kobe's neck.

(I will admit that I'm a little more satisfied that he did it to Kobe, because unlike Ginobili who got hit for just playing really hard and destroying hte Nuggets, he talks a lot of and expects the refs to give him a lot of breaks... Ginobili is still earning a lot of the credibility with the officials he deserves, but not by pulling a Kobe and complaining the whole game or strutting around the court.)

Also, I've never seen Popovich stoop to telling an opposing player that he " ing deserved it" when he gets an elbow to the face like Phil Jackson did last game. Pop may have given Artest a piece of his mind, but I doubt it consisted of such immature banter. The fact that the Lakers seem to have this respect just handed to them is what makes me most upset (kind of like when the Mavs are at home and the refs get scared of Cuban) because teams like the Spurs and Suns have to earn anything they get.

On the basis of your argument that "potential for injury" warrents a suspension, then why was there no discussion of the unnecessary hard foul by Luke Walton in Game 3 - the potential for Tim Thomas to fall awkwardly and seriously injure himself was high. The league levied the suspension (which was probably shorter than usual in light of the Reggie Evans and Kwame Brown antics) both to say it won't tolerate such behavior, but also because he didn't throw Kobe to the ground or throw a punch, and he in fact, let him fall softly to the court and just walked away, so I think it was less about the injury potential and more about the obvious nature of the foul.

So, in the end, I'm basically saying that Bruce Bowen is a nicer guy on the whole than Ron Artest (and probably Raja Bell) has ever been, so that allows him to embrace the double standard and put in little cheap shots on people (that I know you enjoy because I don't think anyone likes Ray Allen) without fear of being suspended. He's a smart player because he knows the types of players (Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Dirk, Rip Hamilton) who get scared by contact and their game suffers, so he exploits the psychological advantage, as well. Secondly, I think that if Bowen had done the exact same thing Artest did (elbow), he would not have been suspended, but the "intent and potential for injury" would still have been the same (and we've all agreed that's because Artest is under a microscope). What I'm saying is that good teams always have multiple characters and pieces on their team and I embrace Raja's dirty play and tenacious at ude because I respect how hard he plays and how hard he works out there, so I don't understand why you're shying away from that label for Bowen, when pretty much everyone else has agreed that is "dirty," not just me, this "bitter and emotional" Suns fan.

[RonMexico]

According to the league, Bell's suspension was for "excessive and unnecessary contact," not "excessive and unncessary intent and/or potential for injury."

Kind of backs up my statement that the blatant and obvious nature of the clothesline is the chief reason for the suspension.

[Tanya]

Yeah, and maybe Ben Wallace never pushed Ron Artest in the throat (not supporting what Artest did or the brawl that ensued) and we've never seen Rip Hamilton kick, elbow, and push people because he's one of the biggest pussies and whiners in the entire league (I don't know if I've seen such a player fold under heavy defense in my entire life)... actually, you should just shut-up right now, because your team didn't receive the "Bad Boys" tag in the 80s and 90s because they cooked the other team dinner and gave them massages after the game - it's because Rodman and Laimbeer would push, pull, hit, grab, and throw every player ranging from Larry Bird to Jerome Kersey... please don't tell me you've forgotten about those championships and the at ude of that team so quickly...

Wow I had exams last two days so I almost missed your reply FOR ME. I don't hate Bell, I don't even know much about this player. That's just my opinion after I watched that stupid foul. I don't understand why I should shut up.

[RonMexico]

Wow I had exams last two days so I almost missed your reply FOR ME. I don't hate Bell, I don't even know much about this player. That's just my opinion after I watched that stupid foul. I don't understand why I should shut up.

Sorry, I wasn't in a good mood at the time - "shut-up" is retracted, but I think you might have said something about how those kinds of actions have no reason being in the game, and I just wanted to point out the Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn days of the Pistons.