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Sorry spurs fans, I have to say shaq>duncan>robinson, but they are all on my top 10 big men of all time.
I actually went back and read your entire post, and totally regret it! This was all we need to complete this thread, the jackass conspiracy theory! Sweet, this thread is now complete.
Sorry spurs fans, I have to say shaq>duncan>robinson, but they are all on my top 10 big men of all time.
So, Robinson > Hakeem???
no, people have tried to make the argument that robinson or duncan is better than shaq. Shaq>Duncan>Robinson wasn't supposed to include Hakeem. Hakeem vs Shaq is too close to call.
You mean like not calling Shaq's go-to move an offensive foul... I see.
Catch the ball, lower your shoulder and plow through your defender... Last time I checked this was basketball not football...
Why?
Hakeem dominated Shaq in the 1995 Finals, did he not?
But, Tim has three rings, while Hakeem only has 2.
Duncan > Hakeem?
Hakeem > Robinson
Hakeem > Shaq?
The problem is, there are so many ways to judge this.
Who is the best defensive player? The best offensive player? The best all-around player? The best team player? The player with the most Championships? The player with the most Final appearances?
And, which of these count to make you the best player?
Found this: http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/H...-91094-34.html
Makes a good case that Hakeem was the best big man in the 1990s.
Which makes me wonder: If we're seriously going to answer this question, we need to establish the "prime" of all these players to compare them as fairly as possible.
Last edited by MadDog73; 06-06-2006 at 02:37 PM.
Reading comprehension. I really didn't say what I thought of Shaq. And I wouldn't since I honestly don't remember those series very well. The post you had responded to was making that claim, and instead of refuting it you simply responded with "I don't care".
That was the point of my post, which apparently went right over your head.
You can't honestly tell me that for the most of his carreer, even in his rookie year, Shaq didn't get away with just about everything. It's only the last couple years that they actually started calling him for some of the crap he's been doing for over a decade.
Shaq's unstoppable offense his entire carreer has been get away with a charge and get away with an off-arm hook/push.
It's not a conspiracy, its a fact. It's accepted that superstars like Dirk, Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, etc, are going to get away with a lot of crap. Dream and Admiral didn't get as big a treatment as Shaq, though they were shown favoritism.
You forgot his 2nd favorite move. Hooking the defender and throwing him a couple feet away during a spin move.You mean like not calling Shaq's go-to move an offensive foul... I see.
Catch the ball, lower your shoulder and plow through your defender... Last time I checked this was basketball not football...
This thread has really gone south, when in doubt about the refs, that's what a lot people on this board do best. Must every thread turn into a session about the officiating? It's pathetic.
Anybody that discounts Shaq's dominance and attributes it to the officiating is a seeping vagina, give the guy credit for christ's sake. His opponents got away with as many fouls on him as he got away with, and if you disagree you are biased. I'm Kings fan and he sent my team out of the playoffs how many straight years? He got away with many fouls in those games but at least I realize that the Kings probably got away with as many if not more on him. Double teams, triple teams, and fouling the guy was the only way that he could be halfway contained. The guy took more of a beating than any other player in the history of the game.
What are you some sort of yes man? Jumping into the debate without giving you own opinion just to brag on somebody elses? WTF is that? Bring something to the table or quit wasting our time, and something meaningful not this conspiracy theory BS.
Shaq is huge and clogs up the paint if he is down in it. That is his defense and offense in a nuts ..when all it takes is a 2 inch jump to put the ball in the hole, and you are so much stronger and larger in pure mass than anyone around you, its easy...
I personally don't see him as being an all around good basketball player, only because his only asset is his extreme size.
If i was over 7 ft tall and as enormous as him...id have the same record he did, anyone would. Just walk under the basket...stick your hand up..when you get the ball, place it in the cylinder.
It is not like he has some elite foot work, or dribbling skills, or bonafied post moves...his post moves are bull down your defender to make space (foul) then see above...
Or hook the defender with your offhand to move him out of the way and then see above...
Give him the basketball outside of reach from a layup and he is done...he tries to shoot, or dribble and he is coughing the ball up, or bricking...
He cannot make a free throw...
He is (or was at one point) not very team oriented..
Those are all reasons Tim, Hakeem, Kareem, David, etc..are better than shaq.
If you can keep shaq away from the basket, he is done..problem is he weighs 350lbs, so its fairly hard to do so...if you call this great basketball skill...then yea..he is good.
shaq is a force to be dealt with, but not because he has some pure basketball skill...
btw: to the kings fan, just because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't automatically make them a dumbass, or a jerkoff, or whatever else you have called people...All calling names does is show your own insecurity and ignorance....
btwX2: This is my opinion as a basketball fan, not because i pretend to know all, as i am far from it...so please shoot it all full of holes..and tell me why i am wrong.
LOL. You can see my opinion about the topic of this thread a while ago.
I was pointing out that it was weird for you to completely ignore someone countering your arguments. You backed out of the debate and claimed victory. That's tweaked.
You give Shaq WAY too much credit. I'll admit I probably don't give him enough. He's had a more favored relationship with the refs than any of the others being talked about in this thread, and its okay. If you think the highly marketable superstars don't get those benefits, you need to pay more attention. It annoys me more with Shaq than anyone else because Shaq is comparatively not very skilled.
Well, his spin move is very nifty, and he never really needed to hook for it (it was that good in his early Laker days). But he always did, massively, and got away with it. That's about it. He couldn't hit any shot except slam's and layups. He didn't have many post moves. His concept of defense was mostly leaning against people. If he actually had those skills he would easily have been the most dominant big man ever.
But since he didn't, his overall impact for his teams is less than Dream, Admiral, and Timmy's.
He's actually been more impressive the last couple years since he's developed a good hook shot, a short jump shot, and gotten much better at help defense. Put those skills into his prime and bam.
So because he has less skill than these other guys, that somehow makes him less great? That is like saying that it was less impressive what Jordan did because he was able to jump higher than everyone else, or it isn't so impressive what AI does because his speed and quickness advantage. This isn't a debate as to who displayed the most pure basketball skill, it is about who was the best. Last time I checked speed,size and stregnth are tremendous assets on the basketball floor. I don't understand how anybody can sit there and say what Shaq did doesn't count because he was so big and strong.
Look at there career numbers, accomplishments, and overall success and tell me if anybody besides a Spurs fans is going to honestly say that Robinson was a better player. Same thing can be applied to Duncan so far, but Duncan at least still has a shot at reaching his level. Bottom line is I don't give a damn what it looked like, style counts for nothing in wins and losses, call it non-skilled or call it whatever you want, he is more successful than anybody else in this discussion and there is no debating that.
Actually, going by Championships and MVPs, he's not. At this moment, he is equal to Tim Duncan, not greater. (making the Finals doesn't count, you have to win it, right?)
Hakeem and Robinson are tied.
So, just going by Rings,
1. Tim and Shaq
2. Hakeem and Robinson
At least with Hakeen and Robinson, you have a series where Hakeem owned Robinson, so you can make the argument that Hakeem > Robinson. (I don't count regular season games).
If Shaq wins this year, then he'll be on top until Tim can overtake him.
Oh making the finals 3 more times doesn't count for anything? You wouldn't be saying that if the Spurs had made the finals and lost to the Pistons in '04, or if they made it this year and lost in '06. Putting your team in position to win a le by making the finals has way more value than being sent home in the 2nd round, wouldn't you say? If not, then let's just look at career statistics:
Duncan's stats
Robinson's stats
Shaq's stats
Off NBA.com
David Robinson:
2 NBA Championships, 1995 MVP, 1990 ROY, 1992 DPOY, IBM award 90, 91, 94, 95, 96. rebounding le 1991, blocked shots in 1992, scoring in 94. 4 times all NBA 1st team, 2 times second team. 3 times 3rd team. All defense team: 4, 4. 10 time All-star. 15 times player of the week, 4 times player of the month.
Carreer avgs: Scoring: 21.1, Rebounding (o/t): 3.1/10.6, assits: 2.5, steals: 1.4, blocks: 3, PF: 3, TO: 2.45, FG%: 51.8, FT%: 73.6, MPG: 34.7
Notes: Robinson and Kareem are the only two people to win Rebounding, Blocked Shot, and Scoring les during their carreers. Robinson is the only player to be named All-NBA and All-NBA defensive teams for first 7 years.
Shaq:
3 les, 2000 MVP, 3 finals MVPs, 93 ROY, All NBA: 4,2,3, All defense: 0,2,0, Nine time All-star, 2 time all-star MVP, Scoring le: 95, 00, FG% champ 5 times, 1 IBM award, 1 time player of the month
Carreer avgs: Scoring: 26.3, Rebounding (o/t): 3.8/11.8, Assists: 2.8, steals: 0.66, Blocks: 2.5, PF: 3.4, TO: 2.87, FG%: 58, FT%: 52.8, MPG: 37.0
Robinson certainly looks better to me, or at least close enough to be debateable.
Not if the team you're eliminated by goes on to win the Finals. Not our fault we're in the same conference as the Lakers and Rockets. How many times would the Spurs be in the Finals if we were in the East?
There's more to a Champion then Points per Game.
Tim and David are unselfish heroes. They do what it takes to win, not just score lots of points.
In the end, all that matters is the Ring.
Half those awards are arbitrary, and I could give about them. Tell me, if they started the NBA over every season and they redrafted players every year, from '99-'03 what player would every single team pick first? Shaquille O'Neal guaranteed. Would you disagree with that? That is a more accurate indication of who the MVP is, when the day is over who do you want on your team. Who can't be stopped.
I seriously can't believe that somebody actually believes that Robinson is better than Shaq, Spurs fan or not that is absolutely in' ridiculous. Give some respect to the guy, his dominance should have earned your respect. I respect Robinson, but come on, we're talking about Shaq. Robinson couldn't get his team to the finals until he was the 2nd best player on the team. And don't act like he didn't have any talent around him, AJ, Rodman, Del Negro and company were a pretty damn good supporting cast. Robinson didn't have the killer instinct that Shaq and Duncan possess, not even close.
Oh so it isn't David Robinson's or Tim Duncan's fault that they had to face Shaq's or Hakeem's teams? Well that I'll give you, but I doesn't help your side of the arguement.
How many times would the Spurs make the finals if they were in the East? What in the does that have to do with this conversation? Seriously? If it is because Shaq has made it to the finals 2 times in the East I don't think that helps your side either. He went through Jordan's Bulls and a great Pacers team to get there in '95, and through the Pistons this year, is that not impressive to you?
So Robinson and Duncan are unselfish heros? What does that make Shaq a selfish villan? Seriously, that is one of the est and cheesiest lines I've ever heard! Unselfish heros! Do the stats really show that? I mean Duncan avgerages more assist and is probably a better passer, but how did you come up with Robinson being so unselfish? Shaq has averaged more assists over the same number of years.
You'll never listen to reason because you are such a HOMER! Seriously, that unselfish heros line said it all. You villanize Shaq becaue he and his team have gotten the better of the Spurs over the years. If you could take your unselfish heros' s out of your mouth for a couple of seconds you might see what I'm talking about.
I said in his prime. In his prime he was better. He was one of the few players got get a quadruple double.
My bad, they also had Sean elliot in his absolute prime, and Chuck Person. You're telling me that Del Negro, AJ, Rodman, Elliot, and Person is a terrible supporting cast? Well they aren't great, but I think that they are plenty good.
Shaq and TD don't have killer instinct? They are both terrible free throw shooters, and yet I've seen them both shoot FT very well during huge games at very clutch moments. They both took over a games whenever they wanted to in their prime, which Duncan might still be in, not sure.
So that one game that Robinson got a quadruple double put it over the edge? That one regular season game that meant in the grand scheme of things?
Nate Thurmond had one too, so does that make him better than all those other guys? Accept for Robinson of course, and don't forget Hakeem had one also, and almost a second but he was 1 assist shy.
They don't really. As much as you hear them being able to make shots "when it counts," they miss probably as much as they do regularly. I think everybody just notices more when they make them in a tight situation. I have no stats to back that up. Also, if you watched the Lakers and Heat as well as the Spurs, you'd know that Manu, Kobe, and Wade were usually the ones with the ball in their hands to shoot - not Shaq or Duncan.
Sean Elliott in his prime hit All-Star status but he was never close to being a superstar like a Kobe, Wade, Penny, etc. Elliott was a nice player, but definitely not a difference maker. I don't know if you watched Chuck Person when he was a Spur, but by the time he got here he could barely walk his back was hurting so much. He was pretty much just chucking 3's out there. Avery was always a very determined player, but he usually got torched on the defensive end because he couldn't jump and was so short. He also wasn't very quick for as small as he was. Vinny Del Negro was supposedly a pure shooter that couldn't hit threes to save his life. He was about 50% if you hit him in stride for an open J. Otherwise, teams could easily make him a non-factor.
Not that I'm condoning turning this thread into a whine about the refs one, but perhaps the real reason that conversations about anything related to basketball so often turn into ref complaining sessions is because the refs in the NBA are beyond atrocious. Fans of every team can agree to that one fact. I'm not gonna say that they're in favor of one team or player at all times, but you know they suck. It is pretty pathetic that the league is continuing to allow this. If they wanted all the complaining about refs to cease they'd get rid of the horrible refs and get some new ones, along with actually holding refs accountable for their horrid calls. Stop protecting them as much as they do. They're obviously not doing their jobs right.
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