Holting Pattern v1.1

[timvp]

LAS VEGAS -- The hair has grown out, so has some stubble on the chin, and the arms and shoulders are filling out the jersey nicely.

David Lee certainly looks a year older, but his game has matured, too.

The Knicks' forward played well in the Vegas Summer League last year, which hinted at what turned into a solid rookie season in New York, the erratic playing time aside. If his performance this July is a precursor, he's poised to cement himself into Isiah Thomas' rotation come the fall.

Second-year vets generally fare well this time of year -- their comfort level and confidence from a year in the fire, matched with unfettered playing time, usually leads to some big numbers. And Lee's do look pretty good -- he's been bullying the generally inferior compe ion for the last week, averaging 16 points and 10.8 rebounds in four games. He had 10 points and nine rebounds in the Knicks' 91-68 win over the Pistons on Tuesday night.

It's the way he's been doing it that has been impressing viewers at UNLV's Cox Pavilion. Lee has been rugged around the basket on both ends, working for every rebound and running the floor with Nate Robinson like an undrafted free agent trying to scratch out a roster spot.

"He plays like a warrior, it doesn't matter what the game means," one Eastern Conference coach said. "He's one of those guys who always challenges himself and wants to win."

To throw a little more gas on the fire, look what the featured article on the front of ESPN.com's NBA section is about.

[Mr. Body]

But let's not forget the other side of the coin -- Mitch Kupchak is a horrible, horrible GM.

(I meant to say "decrepit old farts like Brian Shaw" not Brian Cook, who at least isn't old.)

Yes. They seem to be doing better, however, even if I doubt the Radmanovic pickup.

Throwing away draft picks is tough to watch for the Spurs. They have a pretty good 'hit' ratio, it's hard to see them thrown away.

I'm fully expecting them to trade 2/3 of them off next year.

[Mr. Body]

David Lee looks great. I've gotten to see a few SL games on the MSG network. I wouldn't be surprised to see Balkman work out, either. They both have great motors and a knack for the ball.

THE KIND OF PLAYERS WE NEED.

[Bruno]

Spurs won't have drafted Lee if they have kept the 30th pick. It's stupid to say that Spurs have traded Lee.

[Mr. Body]

True, Bruno. But he's the sort of player they could have used.

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs have the resources to get these guys. They just have to forget about this clearing cap space for 2009-10 crap.

Win now.

Agree. A good GM should keep an eye on the future, but this organization has won 3 les behind its lone superstar - Duncan. They can win more if they get off their asses and "pony up" to bring in a few key guys that help get them over the top again.

It is possible to do both.

[timvp]

Spurs won't have drafted Lee if they have kept the 30th pick. It's stupid to say that Spurs have traded Lee.

Spurs liked him before and after the draft. Why wouldn't they have drafted him?

[Mr. Body]

I think we bank so much on them drafting exclusively foreign.

[Bruno]

Spurs liked him before and after the draft. Why wouldn't they have drafted him?

Duncan + Horry + Scola + Rose at PF.

Edit : and Mahinmi as project PF.

[Bruno]

BTW, if Spurs wanted badly a player like Lee, they would have drafted Amundson with their pick this year.

[wildbill2u]

maybe the individual partners but not the corporate ones...

You can't compare a minority corporate partner with obligations to stockholders with an individual who can do whatever he damn well wants to with his billions.

Can you imagine any Spur owner being able to taunt the league and pay the sort of fines Cuban has absorbed with laughter? $250,000 is less than one day's interest on his money.

The league knows this and he has them in a bind because if they tried to fine him kazillion dollars, he could afford to keep them in court until he found a judge who said it was excessive. And he'd probably win in that kind of pissing contest.

Like Steinbrenner, Cuban is an original and a force simply because he has no meaningful fianancial restrictions on his actions.

[MajorMike]

I would challenge ANYone to come up with stats that a team has done better drafting here we have had picks since TD was picked. The Spurs have had 1 Lottery pick since 1990. 1990. (TD). Since TD our ave 1st round pick has been 27.43.
1 24 24 1998 Felipe Lopez SG St. John's
2 23 52 1998 Derrick Dial SG Eastern Michigan
1 29 29 1999 Leon Smith PF (High School)
2 28 57 1999 Emanuel Ginobili SG (Italy)
2 12 41 2000 Chris Carrawell SF Duke
2 25 54 2000 Cory Hightower SF/SG Indian Hills C.C.
1 29 29 2001 Tony Parker PG (France)
2 27 56 2001 Robertas Javtokas C/PF (Lithuania)
2 29 58 2001 Bryan Bracey SF Oregon
1 26 26 2002 John Salmons PG/SG Miami (FL)
2 27 56 2002 Luis Scola PF (Spain)
1 28 28 2003 Leandrinho Barbosa PG (Brazil)
1 28 28 2004 Beno Udrih PG (Italy)
2 23 52 2004 Romain Sato SG Xavier
2 28 58 2004 Sergey Karaulov C (Russia)
1 28 28 2005 Ian Mahinmi PF (France)

What did the Lakers do?
1 27 27 1990 Elden Campbell PF/C Clemson
2 24 51 1990 Tony Smith SG Marquette
2 25 52 1991 Anthony Jones SF Oral Roberts
1 15 15 1992 Anthony Peeler SG Missouri
2 9 36 1992 Duane Cooper PG USC
1 12 12 1993 George Lynch SF/PF North Carolina
2 10 37 1993 Nick Van Exel PG Cincinnati
1 10 10 1994 Eddie Jones SG Temple
2 8 37 1995 Frankie King SG/PG Western Carolina
1 24 24 1996 Derek Fisher PG Arkansas Little Rock
2 23 52 1997 DeJuan Wheat PG Louisville
2 25 54 1997 Paul Rogers PF/C Gonzaga
1 26 26 1998 Sam Jacobson SG Minnesota
2 2 31 1998 Ruben Patterson SF Cincinnati
2 16 45 1998 Toby Bailey SG UCLA
1 23 23 1999 Devean George SG/SF Augsburg
2 1 30 1999 John Celestand SG/PG Villanova
1 29 29 2000 Mark Madsen PF Stanford
1 27 27 2002 Chris Jefferies SF Fresno State
1 24 24 2003 Brian Cook PF Illinois
2 3 32 2003 Luke Walton SF Arizona
1 27 27 2004 Alexander Vujacic PG (Italy)
2 27 56 2004 Marcus Douthit PF/C Providence
1 10 10 2005 Andrew Bynum C (High School)
2 7 37 2005 Ronny Turiaf PF Gonzaga
2 9 39 2005 Von Wafer SG Floirda State

Anyone see any All Stars in that list?

Bulls?
2 2 29 1990 Toni Kukoc SF (Yugoslavia)
1 26 26 1991 Mark Randall PF Kansas
1 27 27 1992 Byron Houston PF Oklahoma State
2 6 33 1992 Corey Williams SG Oklahoma State
2 12 39 1992 Litterial Green PG Georgia
2 25 52 1992 Matt Steigenga SF/PF Michigan State
1 25 25 1993 Corie Blount PF Cincinnati
2 14 41 1993 Anthony Reed SF/PF Tulane
1 21 21 1994 ey Simpkins PF Providence
2 22 49 1994 Kris Bruton SF Benedict
1 20 20 1995 Jason Caffey PF Alabama
2 2 31 1995 Dragan Tarlac PF (Greece)
1 29 29 1996 Travis Knight C Connecticut
1 28 28 1997 Keith Booth SF Maryland
2 29 58 1997 Roberto Duenas C (Spain)
1 28 28 1998 Corey Benjamin SG Oregon State
1 2 2 2002 Jay Williams PG Duke
2 29 58 1998 Maceo Baston PF Michigan
1 1 1 1999 Elton Brand PF Duke
1 16 16 1999 Ron Artest SF St. John's
2 3 32 1999 Michael Ruffin PF Tulsa
2 20 49 1999 Lari Ketner PF/C Massachusetts
1 4 4 2000 Marcus Fizer PF Iowa State
1 7 7 2000 Chris Mihm C Texas
1 24 24 2000 Dalibor Bagaric C (Croatia)
2 3 32 2000 A.J. Guyton PG Indiana
2 4 33 2000 Jake Voskuhl PF/C Connecticut
2 5 34 2000 Khalid El-Amin PG Connecticut
1 4 4 2001 Eddy Curry PF/C (High School)
2 1 30 2001 Trenton Hassell SG Austin Peay
2 16 45 2001 Sean Lampley SF California
1 2 2 2002 Jay Williams PG Duke
2 2 31 2002 Roger Mason Jr. PG/SG Virginia
2 15 44 2002 Lonny Baxter PF Maryland
1 7 7 2003 Kirk Hinrich PG Kansas
2 7 36 2003 Mario Austin PF Mississippi State
2 16 45 2003 Matt Bonner PF Florida
2 24 53 2003 Tommy Smith SF Arizona State
1 3 3 2004 Ben Gordon SG Connecticut
1 7 7 2004 Luol Deng SF Duke
2 2 31 2004 Jackson Vroman PF Iowa State
2 9 39 2004 Chris Duhon PG Duke

Couple of All Stars, but not for them, and they were both top 16 picks.

Rockets?
1 12 12 1990 Alec Kessler PF Georgia
1 20 20 1991 John Turner PF Phillips
2 20 47 1991 Keith Hughes PF Rutgers
2 24 51 1991 Zan Tabak C (Croatia)
1 11 11 1992 Robert Horry SF/PF Alabama
2 14 41 1992 Popeye Jones PF Murray State
2 26 53 1992 Curtis Blair PG Richmond
1 24 24 1993 Sam Cassell PG Florida State
2 19 46 1993 Richard Petruska PF/C UCLA
2 22 50 1993 Marcelo Nicola PF/SF (Spain)
2 26 53 1994 Albert Burditt PF Texas
2 12 41 1995 Erik Meek PF Duke
2 1 30 1996 Ot a Harrington PF Georgetown
2 13 42 1996 Randy Livingston PG LSU
2 21 50 1996 Terrell Bell PF/C Georgia
1 24 24 1997 Rodrick Rhodes SG/SF USC
2 1 30 1997 Serge Zwikker C North Carolina
1 14 14 1998 Micheal erson SG Arizona
1 16 16 1998 Bryce Drew PG Valparaiso
1 18 18 1998 Mirsad Turkcan PF (Turkey)
2 12 41 1998 Cuttino Mobley SG Rhode Island
1 22 22 1999 Kenny Thomas PF New Mexico
2 15 44 1999 Tyrone Washington PF Mississippi State
2 21 50 1999 Venson Hamilton PF Nebraska
1 9 9 2000 Joel Przybilla C Minnesota
2 2 31 2000 Dan Langhi SF Vanderbilt
1 18 18 2001 Jason Collins C Stanford
1 23 23 2001 Brandon Armstrong SG Pepperdine
1 1 1 2002 Yao Ming C (China)
1 15 15 2002 Bostjan Nachbar SF (Italy)
2 9 38 2002 o Maddox PG (None)
2 15 44 2003 Malick Badiane PF (Germany)
2 26 55 2004 Luis Flores PG Manhattan
1 24 24 2005 Luther Head SG/PG (Illinois)

Ming as #1 and Cassell (not for them).

Pistons?
1 26 26 1990 Lance Blanks SG Texas
2 13 40 1991 Doug Overton PG LaSalle
1 19 19 1992 Don MacLean PF/SF UCLA
1 10 10 1993 Lindsey Hunter PG Jackson State
1 11 11 1993 Allan Houston SG Tennessee
1 3 3 1994 Grant Hill SF Duke
2 21 48 1994 Jevon Crudup PF Missouri
1 18 18 1995 Theo Ratliff PF Wyoming
1 19 19 1995 Randolph Childress SG/PG Wake Forest
2 1 30 1995 Lou Roe PF/SF Massachusetts
2 29 58 1995 Don Reid PF Georgetown
1 26 26 1996 Jerome Williams PF Georgetown
1 19 19 1997 Scot Pollard PF/C Kansas
2 3 32 1997 Charles O'Bannon SF/SG UCLA
1 11 11 1998 Bonzi Wells SG Ball State
2 11 40 1998 Korleone Young SF (High School)
2 25 54 1999 Melvin Levett SG Cincinnati
1 14 14 2000 Mateen Cleaves PG Michigan State
2 15 44 2000 Brian Cardinal PF Purdue
1 9 9 2001 Rodney White SF Charlotte
2 9 38 2001 Mehmet Okur PF/C (Turkey)
1 23 23 2002 Tayshaun Prince SF Kentucky
1 2 2 2003 Darko Milicic PF (Serbia-Montenegro)
1 25 25 2003 Carlos Delfino SG (Italy)
2 29 58 2003 Andreas Glyniadakis C (Greece)
2 25 54 2004 Rickey Paulding SG Missouri
1 26 26 2005 Jason Maxiell PF Cincinnati
2 26 56 2005 Amir Johnson PF (High School)
2 30 60 2005 Alex Acker SG/PG Pepperdine

Hill and Houston, never led them anywhere, however.

That's all of the Champs since '90.
IF we end up getting Javto here and he has some production, that will futher the late-round prowess of the Spurs. If we get anything for Scola, that will as well.

The Spurs have always made the best moves for the Spurs.
In 98 they traded Lopez for Antonio Daniels.
In 99 they traded Smith to the Mavs, which enabled them to pick Carawell in 00.
Our #1 pick in 00 (#24) went to along with Person to the Bulls for Kerr.
Hightower was traded to the Lakers for a future pick... Javto.
Salmons was traded for Speedy.
Barbosa went to Phx for 05 pick which went with Malik and 2nd round 06 for Nazr.
They traded the next to last pick this year for the better of Milwuakee's 2 2nd round picks next year (not 1st round). They have Houston's pick as well in 2nd round next year.

[Mr. Body]

The Lakers did very well until Jerry West left (no surprise). George Lynch, Fisher, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel were all excellent picks (NVE was an all-star). Ruben Patterson, Elden Campbell, and others are having/had good careers. Once West left, it was downhill.

[ShoogarBear]

CaptMike, nice post, but unless I missed something where were the Spurs criticized for their drafting in this thread? The point was the trading of draft picks and getting nothing back for them.

[SpursWoman]

Uh good for you,

ive already bought my tickets and they are the same price as last year.


A team raising ticket prices, wow, THAT never happens.....

Good for you, then. Mine went up over $150 per seat.

[MajorMike]

CaptMike, nice post, but unless I missed something where were the Spurs criticized for their drafting in this thread? The point was the trading of draft picks and getting nothing back for them.

In 98 they traded Lopez for Antonio Daniels.
In 99 they traded Smith to the Mavs, which enabled them to pick Carawell in 00.
Our #1 pick in 00 (#24) went to along with Person to the Bulls for Kerr.
Hightower was traded to the Lakers for a future pick... Javto.
Salmons was traded for Speedy.
Barbosa went to Phx for 05 pick which went with Malik and 2nd round 06 for Nazr.
They traded the next to last pick this year for the better of Milwuakee's 2 2nd round picks next year (not 1st round). They have Houston's pick as well in 2nd round next year.

All draft and trades listed, not simple player trades.

[MannyIsGod]

I find it funny that everyone jumps to the conclusion that the automatic reason the Spurs didn't want to offer extra years or more money to players is because they are cheap.

Rarely does anyone mention they are gunshy from contracts like Barry and Rasho or that they possibly don't have certain players in the long term plans or they simply don't value players as much as people here.

Immediatly the cheap card comes out.

However, what everyone should keep in mind is that rarely are these contracts end up being good things. When was the last time someone signed a contract of that nature and it wasn't considered a hinderance toward the end? Rasho, Malik, now Barry have all befallen this pattern. If you look around the leauge teams go out and overpay for free agents on a constant basis which inevitably ends up hurting them. The Spurs (possibly) try to avoid this type of a situation and they are considered cheap.

I don't know what their motivations for withholding an extra year from Pryzbilla are, but you have to at least consider the option that they had motivations other than "being cheap" or trying to save caproom for a specific date.

Either way, I think long term flexibility for a sports franchise is something thats a good thing. I'm not convinced that anyone we've missed out on so far out there other than Ben Wallace would have made an incredible impact inthe coming season so I see no reason to cry over what may or may not be occuring behind the scenes.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Matt Bonner is going to be the next Red haired Dirk

[G-Nob]

Can we just tank this year so that we can get a fourth draft pick next year? We might win the lottery again!

[SequNets]

Bottom line...............

San Antonio as a city is a ty place and Black American ballers aren't into Taco Cabanas.

[blackbucket]

Miami is offering Zo $2.5M. The Spurs come in trying to Out-Whataburger the Heat with a giant $3M offer.

OMG!!!! Just reading this thread now. That had me laughing my ass off. "You've been out Whataburgered"!!!!!!!! That is priceless

[Spurminator]

Apparently Elson was offered 3 years.

How does this affect the current theory?

[violentkitten]

Apparently Elson was offered 3 years.

How does this affect the current theory?

in the 3rd year his salary will be $3.2 mil. of course, that might very well be a team option