You're not as cute.Shoog, this is pretty much what I said and you brushed me off
I'll have to go back and read it again.
Actually, I don't think you were saying the same thing.
You were saying if the US started struggling NOW, they would start to care. I don't think so. I don't think anything will ever mean more than the NBA.
Alvie's point was if the US had always historically struggled in the Olympics and WCs, (i.e., we didn't have the past history of dominance) then maybe we'd value it more. That I'd agree with.
Ah, Sequ, king of the controversy thread...
Y'know, there was a time not so long ago that winning a gold medal in a WORLD CLASS sporting compe ion (ie. Olympics, World Championships) was the pinnacle of sporting achievement, and something all athletes AND FANS aspired to and respected. However, the all-consuming power of money (in this case represented by the NBA) has put that silly notion to rest!
These athletes?! How dare they, owned as they are by us, THE FANS, through our monetary support of NBA franchises, how dare they even consider jeopardising their contribution to the NBA in favour of selfish agrandisement at a world class international compe ion! How DARE they!!!
Sorry, but the whole point many of us have been trying to get across is that in the US, winning an Olympic or WC medal was NEVER considered the "pinnacle of sporting achievement" as far as basketball was concerned. That was the case long before our pros started playing in those events.
It was a nice cherry to the top of the sundae if you got one, but the bottom line here has always been and will always be an NBA or NCAA championship.
Please read all my posts in this thread. I have stated that I would rather see my soccer NT win the next five WCs than my local Argentine team (River Plate) ever win a local championship in my lifetime. This is to give you an example which is unrelated to te Spurs and involves a team I have been a fan of, probably same as you with the Spurs, for all my life.
This applies to any team sport: bball, rugby, volley, etc.
So it's not about the player, it's about the NT.
Look, I don't have a slightest intention to offend you, but - let's just stay with the facts, if they are available.
Football clubs must release their players, when national associations request them. They have to release them even for friendly games. However to make the things easier for the clubs, friendly games schedules are decided at the start of every season by UEFA/FIFA. Si it's "If you want a friendly, play it at these days." At these days there can be other national team games, as for instance qualifications for big events. The dates for 06/07 season are: 15/8, 2/9, 6/9, 7/10, 11/10, 15/11, 7/2, 24/3, 28/3, 2/6, 6/6. Of course, when it happens, NT's have the players for more than just a single day.
Can the players stay at their clubs instead of playing for the national squad? Yes, they can. Clubs can ask the national association (NA) if they could keep the player - whatever the reason would be. Sometimes the national associations allow this, but in 99% of cases it doesn't happen. The clubs can, however, get a day "off" for their players. for instance a player could join the national team training camp a day later. But the club officials should be really nice to NA officials. So, yeah, maybe Reyna was excused, but it has nothing to do with FIFA. It's the national football association who decides about that (in his case American Football Association)
Football clubs are usually proud to have a national team player at their squad, especially if they raised him. They say "Look, we've managed to raise a national squad member, our youth academy is great." or maybe "Look, our training facilities are excellent, a player has managed to get a national team spot. He was nowhere, before he came to our clubs. Our scouts did an excellent job". Even the clubs who have 10 NT players in their team and could be unhappy with it sometimes, usually don't say it at loud, because fans of the club wouldn't accept it easily.
This is one of the main differences between NBA and rest of the world even in basketball - fans have bigger impact on life in Europe. In NBA, there are club owners and the profits are, in some extent, divided between teams. In Europe/South America, there are no owners (except for the rare exceptions) and it's all about making the fans happy. If the fans are not happy with a coach, they let that know and the coach/FO can usually pack their bags. For instance, how is a FO of a huge team named F.C. Barcelona (the name of the basketball and handball team is the same) decided? By voting of team members every 4 years. There are more than 100 000 members all over the world and you too can be one of them, if you want. You would just be paying a small amount every year, it's probably around $50.
I really don't know a case where a star football player would reject playing playing for his national team. There is an event called "international retirement", when a player decides, he just had enough and his age/condinition+family life prevents him to play for the country anymore. Usually it happens at 32+ years of age, when there are plenty of younger players to play at their position. If the NT team really needs the player, he will almost never do that.
Football players want to play for their teams, because it's the top career achievement and there is always the pride playing for their country. However in football the top trophy is World Cup, not the Olympic games or continental Champions league. Football world cup is the top sport event on the planet. It is so huge, that it would really not be appropriate to replicate it at the Olympic games - regarding finances and compe ion. So FIFA has the age limit, which suits well for both clubs and older players. The limit is 23 but 3 players can be of any age, don't forget that. How did FIFA achieve that and NBA can't? Well the first reason is that FIFA is FIFA and NBA is NBA. FIFA is much more infuential, football is the sport number one almost everywhere. The other reason would be that basketball national compe ions are not THAT influential compared to World Cup.
For the rest of the world, it's country first, club second. It is the way that most (nonUSA) basketball players think. They consider playing in NBA as their job, but playing for their country is for their soul. You just don't get the mentality. NBA le is an important club achievement, but for them, winning a major natioanal compe ion is at least that important.
Bottom line, if NBA club owners are not happy with that, they should just stop buying foreign players, it's just that easy. Top Euro talents would just remain undrafted. Why is that not happening? Because they are not stupid (most of them). Anyway you have some top american players playing World Championships as well, so I'm not sure they would be "safe" with this approach.
That's an excellent post. I've always wondered, how the some guys just don't recognize the importance of NT participation for these players. And more important... how they can't be happy for them?! Bowen was disappointed because of not being selected and some of you are even happy about that? That's sick.
Bottom line... why do we care about what TPark and Sequ write? They are two unimportant persons, they can have their opinion, so what? Why do we give a about their opinion? Everyone can see they are "strange" (not using other words), why do we care?
Good post BgT
@ BgT
May I assume that most of/all the players on your local Argentine team are Argentinean?
That was quite a while ago, wasn't it? There are no blurred lines between facts and opinions.
There are clearly MAJOR differences between the way basketball and soccer are goverened. In terms of participation at this point most major players who are more senior would just as soon pass on international compe ion. Even with the US reputation in need of repair look how many players took a pass on the '04 Olympics. Now you have a bunch of kiddies trying to make their bones. Give them a go around or two and unless they're a LeBron seeing a billion $s to be made they'll pass.
In terms of "Bottom line, if NBA club owners are not happy with that, they should just stop buying foreign players" nobody is putting a gun to their heads to sign with NBA teams. They can go the Vasquez route. It's their choice.
I think MannyIsGod is WAY int the minority of US fans getting more jacked about international play than his club team play.
welcome to the forum bigt. if you don't give a about my opinion, then go post in the club. my opinion must be important because this topic is still here and the count just keeps climbing. that's called scoreboard. learn it doob.....
btw, good insight...
"Most"... yes, sure... that happens everywhere, there is a limit for foreigners.
But there are a lot of players from:
Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, etc.
You can win at "post count scoreboard", but you lose in every other aspect of the forum and probably in your life.
One thing I'm sure is that you had dirt floors when child, since you are soo traumatized with it. And the Commodore-64 is a sure thing, since you have the age.
so if you can not post in a forum you suck at life?
oh my god
I could care less about International....anything. Dont care at all. I am not even going to DVR any of these games in the WC.
Why? Because this American squad isnt even the best we could send. Im sorry, unless you got Shaq in center, and TD in the 4, this isnt Americas best shot by a longshot.
This team is undersized but SUPER-athletic, young and hungry.
I just dont care at all. I hope, at some point, these games will be on at some reasonable time. Until its on in the US timeframe, I dont give a . Win or lose, so what. What league is every player worth his salt dying to play for. The NBA.
I am not trying to come off as rude or aloof. But ask any American with half a brain if they think <insert international tournament winner here> is better than the US at basketball?
Because they arent. The pride your players feel isnt the same here. They love $$, they make alot of it, and they dont want to get injured in some silly exhibition.
Off topic a little bit,
How do you think the NBA Champs would fare in these tournaments? Like if America sent the Miami Heat to represent for example.
Shaq? gimme a break. and TD was there last year along w/Iverson,etc.
That excuse that USA doesn't send their best team is OLD and BS.
All things being equal, it's not impossible they would fare better than the All-Star teams we're currently sending.
However, that's very team-dependent because of the differing degrees of foreign talent. The Spurs without Tony or Manu would get their heads handed to them. Same with Dallas without Dirk or Phoenix without Nash or Diaw.
Miami and Detroit would probably do okay.
No, if Shaq and Duncan and LeBron and Kobe played together year after year as part of a national team, the rest of the world would be back to square one.
That excuse that USA doesn't send their best team is OLD and BS.
then why don't they?
IF this, IF that. blah, blah
the dirt floors make a comeback.
Haven't you been paying attention to a single thing that's been said?
BECAUSE IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THEM, OR TO THE U.S. IN GENERAL.
Yes, they would like to win, but not at the expense of their NBA les or careers. And the vast majority of this country is in agreement with them.
It doesn't matter. The USA team at the WC's this year will kick everybody's ass. This team doesn't need Shaq or Kobe. LeBron, D-Wade, Carmelo, Howard, and the others are definitely elite enough.
And the C64. I’m still waiting for Sequ to ask is Chips Ahoy are sold in Argentina
the dirt floors make a comeback.
I agree that many american superstars would preffer to drive their hummers and smoke their blunts in clubs than to represent their country in the WC.
I am just saying that the excuse that SOME americans give that THE REASON WE DON"T WIN WC/OLYMPICS ANYMORE BECAUSE WE DON"T SEND THE BEST TEAM is OLD and BS.
The reason being like Tlong says Wade, Lebron, Mello, etc are elite enough.
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