Can You Be A Christian and Support State Torture?

[ChumpDumper]

You didn't bother to read the second sentence to which you qouted from me. It awnsers your q.

I read it. It wasn't convincing at all. Your assimilation program by definition wants to get muslims to the point where they would be as indignant about torture as Europeans. Would they simply forget all that if they had a stable power grid and cable TV?

[BIG IRISH]

To answer the ?
I cannot be a christian and support Torture.

Maybe this is why GWB and his attorney General do

the Justice Department has established a strikingly narrow definition of torture.

In August, 2002, the department’s Office of Legal Counsel sent a memo on interrogations to the White House, which argued that a coercive technique was torture only when it induced pain equivalent to what a person experiencing death or organ failure might suffer.


By implication, all lesser forms of physical and psychological mistreatment—what critics have called “torture lite”—were legal.

The memo also said that torture was illegal only when it could be proved that the interrogator intended to cause the required level of pain. And it provided interrogators with another large exemption: torture might be acceptable if an interrogator was acting in accordance with military “necessity.”

In 2004, the “torture memo,” as it became known, was leaked, complicating the nomination of Alberto R. Gonzales to be Attorney General; as White House counsel, Gonzales had approved the memo.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../051114fa_fact

Sounds like somebody got a blank check!

[Drachen]

The real le to this thread should be "Can you be a Christian and still believe in the actual teachings of Christ?"

[jochhejaam]

Regarding State torture, it's notable that Christ clearly inferred that there is a separation between those Governments that are led by his creation and the Heavenly Government that He is the King of. When Christ was shown a coin with Caesars likeness on it and was asked about whether or not taxes should be paid, he responded, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God". Right or wrong, it's a function of the people's Government, not the Government which Christ is the head of.

I was reading this morning from Luke (a book in the New Testament ) and in Chapter 6 it states that we are to "love our enemies" and pray for them. In light of that, I'm not sure how a Christian can reconcile condoning or participating in torture.

I've never prayed for the terrorists. I asked my wife, who spends more time in devotions than I do if she had, and she stated that she had not. Yet, it's a command from Christ rather than a suggestion. (Food for thought...)

[MannyIsGod]

Regarding State torture, it's notable that Christ clearly inferred that there is a separation between those Governments that are led by his creation and the Heavenly Government that He is the King of. When Christ was shown a coin with Caesars likeness on it and was asked about whether or not taxes should be paid, he responded, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God". Right or wrong, it's a function of the people's Government, not the Government which Christ is the head of.

I was reading this morning from Luke (a book in the New Testament ) and in Chapter 6 it states that we are to "love our enemies" and pray for them. In light of that, I'm not sure how a Christian can reconcile condoning or participating in torture.

I've never prayed for the terrorists. I asked my wife, who spends more time in devotions than I do if she had, and she stated that she had not. Yet, it's a command from Christ rather than a suggestion. (Food for thought...)

Joch, we rarely see eye to eye but I've found your posts in this thread extremely refreshing.

[Phenomanul]

Regarding State torture, it's notable that Christ clearly inferred that there is a separation between those Governments that are led by his creation and the Heavenly Government that He is the King of. When Christ was shown a coin with Caesars likeness on it and was asked about whether or not taxes should be paid, he responded, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God". Right or wrong, it's a function of the people's Government, not the Government which Christ is the head of.

I was reading this morning from Luke (a book in the New Testament ) and in Chapter 6 it states that we are to "love our enemies" and pray for them. In light of that, I'm not sure how a Christian can reconcile condoning or participating in torture.

I've never prayed for the terrorists. I asked my wife, who spends more time in devotions than I do if she had, and she stated that she had not. Yet, it's a command from Christ rather than a suggestion. (Food for thought...)

my sentiments exactly....

[Yonivore]

I think he proposed as a way to research, through experimentation, if water-boarding really is torture and whether there are any lasting physical or phychological effects. If it's really not torture as you say, then it really shouldn't be that big of an issue now should it, so what's the stink about?

I'd do it, if it were necessary to satisfy all the whiners that it doesn't kill anyone and that there is no permanent damage done. All the CIA officers authorized to administer waterboarding have done it. What's your point?

I wonder how many 'innocent people' in Baghdad have woken up with bound hands and a bullet in the back of their heads? We prefer to do our killing off camera.

So, now, the American troops are running around like Saddam Hussein's death squads. I hope Murtha takes up this charge...oh wait...he already has.

I think I can officially call you un-American, un-Patriotic, and an enemy agent.

What proof do you have that we have soldiers running around, binding people and shooting them in the back of the head?

[Yonivore]

Without understanding scripture in its total, you can find all sorts of stuff that supports your position. For instance, in Paul's letter to the Romans:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been ins uted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Several important assertions concerning the obligations of the follower of Jesus to the civil state are delineated in the first seven verses:

(1) Government is an agency ordained of God (v. 1).

(2) Government, along with its appointed officials, exists to curtail evil in the world (v. 3).

(3) The task of government includes the just punishment of evil men, including capital punishment (cf. v. 4, reference to “sword”).

(4) Christian obligation includes support of the government through tribute or taxation (vv. 6, 7).

(5) Subjection to government is required of believers not only to avoid wrath, but also for conscience’ sake (v. 5).

So, yeah, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. Oh, and before you start in with the, "then why shouldn't we ascede to the Islamic Governments," remind yourself that Paul was talking to the Christian Church, not the Muslim one.

[boutons_]

A Christian (actually any sincerely spiritual person of any flavor) is obligated to follow his conscience, even if that puts him in opposition to government.

There's is an on-going requirement to refine and inform the conscience, which is in essence the expression of the universe's will.

The conscience belongs to God. When Caesar's govt is on conflict with God's conscience, the conscience must be followed, without exception.

In no way is the conscience EVER to be nullified in favor of Caesar's government.

You are one dishonest, duplicitious son of a , Yoni.

[gtownspur]

An Abu Gharib sure had its share of sexual culture and perversion, so thanks for bumping it up the list.

Don't thank me,

That's fine for your point's sake that abu gharib had sexual practices, but what does that have to do with effective techniques that actually help gather info rather than fulfill erotic lusts(ex Guantanamo), which we are actually talking about.

Know one on this thread is advocating that we molests these prisoners.

SO i don't know what you're implying to here.

[gtownspur]

You didn't mention Iraq though. Strange.

Anyway it's like saying everyone in Italy is completely devout since they live near the Vatican.

I didn't need to, when the subject was Iraq and I already stated of how devout the iraqi people are to Islam.

[Yonivore]

I didn't need to, when the subject was Iraq and I already stated of how devout the iraqi people are to Islam.

It's become ChumpDumper's signature post; argue the minutae if you can't argue the concept.

[gtownspur]

I read it. It wasn't convincing at all. Your assimilation program by definition wants to get muslims to the point where they would be as indignant about torture as Europeans. Would they simply forget all that if they had a stable power grid and cable TV?

No you didn't get it at all.

You were doing fine earlier with actually bringing up good points. But now it seems that you're trying to play another ticky tack semantics battle.

First of all, my point is that the euro's are more indignant about our interrogation techniques than arabs.

Most arabs don't live in a Magna Carta type society, so to expect them to be indignant about our methods at Guantanamo is like expecting a fat kid to be indignant about the school menu introducing more fried foods.

Another thing.

My point about democratization and bringing about real economic stability and prosperity have nothing to do with how they will view torture. I didn't implly that they would change their viewpoint on our techniques because of that, but that they would change their minds on tolerance towards different cultures. And be transformed as to coming from a "I'm a global citizen as well as and Iraqi." mentality.

With higher literacy and education. Alqueda will have less power on this region, thus lessening the arabs fervor for Islam to be spread.

[gtownspur]

It's become ChumpDumper's signature post; argue the minutae if you can't argue the concept.

He does that alot.

But he was doing fine till that post.

[gtownspur]

Regarding State torture, it's notable that Christ clearly inferred that there is a separation between those Governments that are led by his creation and the Heavenly Government that He is the King of. When Christ was shown a coin with Caesars likeness on it and was asked about whether or not taxes should be paid, he responded, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God". Right or wrong, it's a function of the people's Government, not the Government which Christ is the head of.

I was reading this morning from Luke (a book in the New Testament ) and in Chapter 6 it states that we are to "love our enemies" and pray for them. In light of that, I'm not sure how a Christian can reconcile condoning or participating in torture.

I've never prayed for the terrorists. I asked my wife, who spends more time in devotions than I do if she had, and she stated that she had not. Yet, it's a command from Christ rather than a suggestion. (Food for thought...)

Ok,....

Pray for the terrorist well being and all and that they change.

Just it would be silly to ask the govt to do the same.

Might as well call off the War on Terror if that's the case, and just accept ALqueda's demands.

If you want to bring Christian limitations to govt, don't go at it half way, go the whole nine yards.

[jochhejaam]

Without understanding scripture in its total, you can find all sorts of stuff that supports your position. For instance, in Paul's letter to the Romans:


Several important assertions concerning the obligations of the follower of Jesus to the civil state are delineated in the first seven verses:

(1) Government is an agency ordained of God (v. 1).

(2) Government, along with its appointed officials, exists to curtail evil in the world (v. 3).

(3) The task of government includes the just punishment of evil men, including capital punishment (cf. v. 4, reference to “sword”).

(4) Christian obligation includes support of the government through tribute or taxation (vv. 6, 7).

(5) Subjection to government is required of believers not only to avoid wrath, but also for conscience’ sake (v. 5).

So, yeah, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. Oh, and before you start in with the, "then why shouldn't we ascede to the Islamic Governments," remind yourself that Paul was talking to the Christian Church, not the Muslim one.

Nice verses Yoni but when all is said and done, here's the bottom line; (Christ's words from the Book of John states that) 36 "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight"

There's a bigger picture that Christians should be aware of that should enlighten us regarding distancing ourselves from being active participants in torture. This picture as viewed in the spiritual realm is identified in the following verse;
(Ephesians) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

And further alienating us from being pro-torture is the following; "Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves".

I don't believe that promotes a pacifist lifestyle per se, but IMO it does provide us with solid perameters that should clearly guide us in forming steadfast conclusions regarding our position on torture.

[jochhejaam]

Ok,....

Pray for the terrorist well being and all and that they change.

Just it would be silly to ask the govt to do the same.
.

I agree. And praying for them hardly implies that we should embrace their philosophy or actions or even pray for thier well being (I wouldn't pray for their physical well being as God's concern is first and foremost for mankinds spiritual well being.

Right or wrong, I'm sure I've prayed that God would wipe the perpetrators of evil (those that God states have been turned over to a reprobate mind) off the face of the Earth (still waiting on this one).

[Yonivore]

I agree. And praying for them hardly implies that we should embrace their philosophy or actions or even pray for thier well being (I wouldn't pray for their physical well being as God's concern is first and foremost for mankinds spiritual well being.

Right or wrong, I'm sure I've prayed that God would wipe the perpetrators of evil (those that God states have been turned over to a reprobate mind) off the face of the Earth (still waiting on this one).

I'm reminded of the old joke about the elderly man, strong in his faith, who, during a 1,000 year flood -- and as the water rose -- prayed to God that He would deliver him from his certain watery fate. Convinced God had heard his prayer he waited.

There was a knock on the door and when he opened it, it was the Red Cross. "We've come to help you evacuate, please get as many of your belongings as you can and board the bus." "No, no," the man replied. "God will deliver me from this, go help someone who needs it." They left. The water rose. The man was forced to the second floor.

He heard a bang on the window. It was the National Guard, in a boat, begging him to crawl through the window and into the boat. Again, the man refused, convinced in his belief God would answer his prayer.

Finally, after being forced to the roof and as the water engulfed the remaining few square feet of shingles, a helicopter appeared over head. The Coast Guardsman pleaded with the man to get in the bucket and be lifted to safety. "God will deliver me, I am not afraid." He refused and they left.

A few minutes later, the floodwaters engulfed the man and swept him to a water death.

Upon arriving at the Pearly Gates a moment later, the man was livid. Why did God forsake me? I believed and I prayed and I was certain my prayers would be answered.

"Who do you think sent the Red Cross, the National Guard, and the Coast Guard, you idiot!?!" responded St. Peter.

God works His will through those of us here on earth. What makes you think he isn't doing so in the case of our being delivered from Islamo fascism by our courageous men and women in uniform, under the authority of our government?

[Yonivore]

Nice verses Yoni but when all is said and done, here's the bottom line; (Christ's words from the Book of John states that) 36 "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight"

There's a bigger picture that Christians should be aware of that should enlighten us regarding distancing ourselves from being active participants in torture. This picture as viewed in the spiritual realm is identified in the following verse;
(Ephesians) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

And further alienating us from being pro-torture is the following; "Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves".

I don't believe that promotes a pacifist lifestyle per se, but IMO it does provide us with solid perameters that should clearly guide us in forming steadfast conclusions regarding our position on torture.

Your position advocates an apocolyptic acquiesence where we all just love our enemies right up to the point they slice our throats and usher us to meet our maker.

I don't buy it. Evil should be resisted...forcefully, if need be. Your intepretation of scripture is eerily like that of the Muslim martyrs that hasten their own deaths (albeit through violent means) so they too can join Allah in paradise.

[jochhejaam]

God works His will through those of us here on earth. What makes you think he isn't doing so in the case of our being delivered from Islamo fascism by our courageous men and women in uniform, under the authority of our government?

I didn't imply that God doesn't work through our courageous men and women in uniform, I believe that through the years he has and does, I merely stated that I don't believe that Christians should be active participants in torture.
Do you believe that Christ's edict that we be "Wise as serpents and harmless as doves" lends support for torture or implies that we should personally abstain from it?





And if he indeed did enter the Pearly Gates he was in essence delivered from the flood.

[SA210]

A Christian (actually any sincerely spiritual person of any flavor) is obligated to follow his conscience, even if that puts him in opposition to government.

There's is an on-going requirement to refine and inform the conscience, which is in essence the expression of the universe's will.

The conscience belongs to God. When Caesar's govt is on conflict with God's conscience, the conscience must be followed, without exception.

In no way is the conscience EVER to be nullified in favor of Caesar's government.

Great post boutons.

Did you notice how your post was ignored?

Many are quick to use the "Render unto Caesar" card, but completely ignore the fact that we are told to obey laws, so long as they DO NOT conflict with God's laws.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't need to, when the subject was Iraq and I already stated of how devout the iraqi people are to Islam.

But you didn't prove it.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't thank me,

That's fine for your point's sake that abu gharib had sexual practices, but what does that have to do with effective techniques that actually help gather info rather than fulfill erotic lusts(ex Guantanamo), which we are actually talking about.

Know one on this thread is advocating that we molests these prisoners.

SO i don't know what you're implying to here.

We are talking about the muslim preception of our actions in Iraq. You are advocating doing pretty much anything to the muslims because the muslims are already agasint us because they are muslims and their governments have tortured them in the past.

[Yonivore]

We are talking about the muslim preception of our actions in Iraq. You are advocating doing pretty much anything to the muslims because the muslims are already agasint us because they are muslims and their governments have tortured them in the past.

Anything?

I don't recall seing anyone advocating they be maimed, injured, killed, raped, permanently scarred, or dismembered.

[ChumpDumper]

No you didn't get it at all.

You were doing fine earlier with actually bringing up good points. But now it seems that you're trying to play another ticky tack semantics battle.

Since you keep bringing up false and unpovable ponts, they have to be dealt with.

First of all, my point is that the euro's are more indignant about our interrogation techniques than arabs.

Most arabs don't live in a Magna Carta type society, so to expect them to be indignant about our methods at Guantanamo is like expecting a fat kid to be indignant about the school menu introducing more fried foods.

Again, what is your basis for measuring the thoughts and at udes of "most" arabs? The fact that you were a fat kid?

Another thing.

My point about democratization and bringing about real economic stability and prosperity have nothing to do with how they will view torture. I didn't implly that they would change their viewpoint on our techniques because of that, but that they would change their minds on tolerance towards different cultures. And be transformed as to coming from a "I'm a global citizen as well as and Iraqi." mentality.

So torture will have no effect on the average muslim and make them think the new boss is same as the old boss. Does the knowlwdge of our torture help Iraqis transform into global citizens tolerant towards different cultures? I don't expect you to be honest about that.

With higher literacy and education. Alqueda will have less power on this region, thus lessening the arabs fervor for Islam to be spread.

There you go again, ignoring the basic causes of the unrest there. I wouldn't have to argue these points if you didn't keep making ignorant statements.