Pat Tillman's brother writes about U.S. Leadership (lack thereof)

[johnsmith]

I'll stay here and do whatever I can to cure the country of this GOP infection.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh man, I read this entire thread and this is what stuck out to me the most. So tell me Clambake, what is it that you plan on doing to cure the country of the GOP infection? Are you planning to rid them by posting three line comments all over Spurstalk.com?

[turambar85]

Uhm...Because it supports your political views of the war?

Were you seeking or hoping for objective discourse by posting extreme and subjective opinions in this Forum? Of course you weren't.

Be real, and don't pretend that you brought it in for any other reasons than those that I've stated.

Uhm, Joch, I can't say I follow. By the logic that you use, anything we say on this forum, no matter what our intent or personal views, is either exploiting a situation or playing political games. Is it not possible to simply have views and opinions? Is it not possible to simply want to show a great letter by a great soldier, one that has the balls to stand up against the administration under which he "served"?

In trying to get people to read this letter I am playing no political game. No election will be swayed by me discussing its contents in a spurstalk forum, I don't have that big of a head. Every single thing that some people say on this board is tainted with their right-wing views, every single thing that some of the others utter is tainted with their left-wing ideas, but that does not mean that every single thing that any of you clowns say out loud is political exploitation and maneuvering. Come on.

You can't find anything to say because you know that I am right. You know that your circle of rhetoric has led you to an inescapable point in which you must give up either your comments, or your idealogical views. They are incompatable.

So, in short, stop making up bull about how it is political games. When you say something about the terrorists after another bombing, do you think that George Bush has you by the strings? I hope not. Start refuting arguments and stop making up absurd arguments such as this, it is just not cutting it.

[clambake]

The plan would go something like this:

1. Clean up this storm that Bush dropped in our lap. Send in more troops to secure all the borders and squeeze out the trouble makers, or get out.

2. Restore our image on the world stage. Recognize how important cooperation is.

3. Convince others that we won't allow that rabid dog in the White House to start any more stupid . Convince them that they won't need nukes to repel another Bush up.

4. Address terror with our newly repaired relations with all countries.

5. Do something that resembles anything regarding social security and healthcare.

6. Gut the GOP.

[Extra Stout]

The plan would go something like this:

1. Clean up this storm that Bush dropped in our lap. Send in more troops to secure all the borders and squeeze out the trouble makers, or get out.

2. Restore our image on the world stage. Recognize how important cooperation is.

3. Convince others that we won't allow that rabid dog in the White House to start any more stupid . Convince them that they won't need nukes to repel another Bush up.

4. Address terror with our newly repaired relations with all countries.

5. Do something that resembles anything regarding social security and healthcare.

6. Gut the GOP.

Items 2-4 are impossible. The damage done is irreversible. The old world of American exceptionalism will never be restored, and all Administrations going forward must learn to deal in a world where most nations will work together to constrain American power.

[clambake]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.

[johnsmith]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.

If your son is as worthless as his old man, then yes, his future is ruined. If not, I don't see how not being able to accomplish 2 and 4 will "destroy his future". I think you're being a little melodramatic don't you?

[Extra Stout]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.

Why does it destroy your son's future?

[johnsmith]

Why does it destroy your son's future?

Is Clambake not talking to me? Is that why you had to repost the same thing I just wrote? Of course, you were a little more pleasant about it then me.

[Crookshanks]

My sister is in town visiting and we were talking about politics and the war last evening over dinner. Her son was in the Army and got back from Afghanistan in March. He spent over a year there. My sister said he doesn't understand why people here are saying the young men and women who enlisted don't know what they're doing.

He said the people he served with all understood the importance of what they were doing and that no one "tricked" them into enlisting. For the most part, they are all very patriotic and very supportive of the President.

So there's another point of view from someone who's been there. Will it change anyone's mind here on this forum? Probably not, but I think it's important to underscore the fact that the Kevin Tillman's are the exception, not the rule!

BTW, if you think ANYONE who enlists in the Army or Marines now is oblivious to the fact that they will most certainly end up in Iraq or Afghanistan - then you are an idiot and you make them out to be idiots also!

[Extra Stout]

Is Clambake not talking to me? Is that why you had to repost the same thing I just wrote? Of course, you were a little more pleasant about it then me.

The vagaries of not refreshing the window every 5 minutes...

Question: How much does the average American benefit from the expanse of American power, as contrasted with other Western industrialized nations?

[ChumpDumper]

So there's another point of view from someone who's been there. Will it change anyone's mind here on this forum? Probably not, but I think it's important to underscore the fact that the Kevin Tillman's are the exception, not the rule!

Ah, the highly scientific Crookshanks fourth-hand information poll.

[01Snake]

If your son is as worthless as his old man, then yes, his future is ruined. If not, I don't see how not being able to accomplish 2 and 4 will "destroy his future". I think you're being a little melodramatic don't you?

Bahahahaha.

Yep, his kids future is ruined because the French wont like him.

[01Snake]

Ah, the highly scientific Crookshanks fourth-hand information poll.

Should Crookshanks friend write down his thoughts? Then it would carry as much weight as Tillmans does.

[JoeChalupa]

A very powerful statement indeed. No matter what side of the fence you are on you cannot deny that he has valid points.

[ChumpDumper]

Should Crookshanks friend write down his thoughts? Then it would carry as much weight as Tillmans does.

Sure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

[01Snake]

Sure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

[Crookshanks]

Sure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

Why? My nephew is a pretty typical recruit. He was about 21 when he went to Afganistan, raised in a middle-class family in Michigan. He is very smart, he just didn't want to go to college at that time.

So why are his observations and opinions any less valid than Kevin Tillman's? I challenge any of you naysayers to go to Fort Hood or any other Army base and talk to the young men and women there. I doubt you'd find many Kevin Tillman's!

If you'd read or listen to other sources than your liberal media outlets, you'd hear story after story after story of soldiers and marines who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've yet to hear one who thinks like Kevin Tillman. I've also heard from many mothers and fathers of these brave young men and women and none of them are like Cindy Sheehan.

My point was that there are differing opinions from those who have served - why do the negative ones carry more weight and importance?

[ChumpDumper]

Why? My nephew is a pretty typical recruit.

There you go again.

So why are his observations and opinions any less valid than Kevin Tillman's?

You predictably miss the point.

If you'd read or listen to other sources than your liberal media outlets

I do. I see all kinds of opinons from soldiers.

My point was that there are differing opinions from those who have served

Your point was trying to invalidate Tillman's POV by pretending he's the only soldier who feels this way.

[Crookshanks]

You know Chump - you are the most irritating and annoying person on this forum, with the exception of boutons.

Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to tell me what my point was - you know nothing about what my intentions were!

As far as my nephew is concerned - isn't it the general consensus in here that the majority of recruits come from lower and middle class America? So why is my assumption so ridiculous?

I wasn't invalidating Tillman's point of view, I was just stating that liberals seem to put way more importance on his point of view, but tend to dismiss the views of soldiers like my nephew and his buddies. And you've proved that point!

[ChumpDumper]

You know Chump - you are the most irritating and annoying person on this forum, with the exception of boutons.

Thanks. You aren't very intelligent.

Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to tell me what my point was - you know nothing about what my intentions were!

I know what you wrote -- it's all there.

I wasn't invalidating Tillman's point of view

You were trying.

I was just stating that liberals seem to put way more importance on his point of view, but tend to dismiss the views of soldiers like my nephew and his buddies.

Nah, you were going out of your way to say he was the exception, a lone voice of dissent.

And you've proved that point!

Nah, I didn't try to invalidate their opinions, just your characterizations of them.

[johnsmith]

Thanks. You aren't very intelligent.I know what you wrote -- it's all there.You were trying.Nah, you were going out of your way to say he was the exception, a lone voice of dissent.Nah, I didn't try to invalidate their opinions, just your characterizations of them.

Sorry Chump, I've grown to like you over the past few weeks (not that you really care), but I'm going to have to side with Crookshanks on this one. He's making an obvious point and you are trying to argue it by just being "cute".

[ChumpDumper]

Not really. I accept that there are differing viewpoints throughout the armed services -- I simply think it's impossible to get a real consensus of feeling and speak for them all given whatever tiny sample size anyone is exposed to -- Tillman's letter or tv snippets or nephew anecdotes.

[johnsmith]

Not really. I accept that there are differing viewpoints throughout the armed services -- I simply think it's impossible to get a real consensus of feeling and speak for them all given whatever tiny sample size anyone is exposed to -- Tillman's letter or tv snippets or nephew anecdotes.

Yeah, I know that this is how you think but I don't think you ever expressed your view in those posts by including Tillman's letter as an example. You can thus see where the confusion comes in, no?


Having said that, I'm still confused why Clambake's son's future is in such jeopardy?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I know that this is how you think but I don't think you ever expressed your view in those posts by including Tillman's letter as an example.

I don't know why I expressly had to do so -- you were smart enough to figure it out, right?

You can thus see where the confusion comes in, no?

I can see where someone like shanks could get confused.

Having said that, I'm still confused why Clambake's son's future is in such jeopardy?

Dunno -- maybe he sees him getting drafted if we invade all the bad countries.

[Extra Stout]

Sorry Chump, I've grown to like you over the past few weeks (not that you really care), but I'm going to have to side with Crookshanks on this one. He's making an obvious point and you are trying to argue it by just being "cute".

Crookshanks is a "she."