Did Manu "ruin" the series?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Disclaimer: I didn't read the whole thread, just the first few posts.

Manu flopped big time on the Fisher incident. Fisher barely bumped him and Manu flopped and flailed. But that didn't "ruin" the series, the Spurs were going to win anyway. And it's not like there was no contact at all with Fisher.

And, are Jazz fans complaining about flopping?

Oh My.

This is what I said on my friend's new blog (http://freemarketsports.blogspot.com/)

Scooter, come on...you can't honestly tell me that:

A. Fisher flopped when Manu went behind the pick.

B. Fisher made a deliberate attempt to initiate contact with Manu while running back up the court.

Don't get me wrong, Manu flopped off that nudge (heavy breathing is more like it), but it further got into Fisher's head and that led to the "taunt" that got him ejected a few plays later. (It was a pretty weak taunt, but you're telling me a vet like Fisher doesn't know Javie's quick trigger and any attempt at unnerving Javie would lead to ejection)

Who knows? Maybe Fisher wanted an early shower since he flew out immediately after the game for a doctor's visit about his daughter and he knew the game was pretty much over at that point.

Both teams were flopping early and it's actually surprising that more didn't come of it the way bodies were flying all over in the first half.

And other than what I think were some quick triggers on the techs (again, any involved NBA fan, much less a player, should know about Javie's quick trigger), how was the refereeing irresponsible? If it's for any reason other than non-calls on flops both ways and quick triggers, I disagree with your assessment.

Utah collapses on the lane, they're going to eventually draw more fouls when teams start attacking the basket as Parker did in the first half and Manu in the fourth quarter. The Spurs attempt to not jump into jump shooters (save for the Oberto foul on Deron early in the first).

Now the question comes of how to assess penalties of flopping.

Personal foul, team technical?

Thoughts?

[PlaneFast]

Here's a flop by Parker. Do we hit people in the head as much as Utah does? (other than Nash, but head-to-head is a wash)



PlaneFast.com

[Jimcs50]

Disclaimer: I didn't read the whole thread, just the first few posts.

Manu flopped big time on the Fisher incident. Fisher barely bumped him and Manu flopped and flailed. But that didn't "ruin" the series, the Spurs were going to win anyway. And it's not like there was no contact at all with Fisher.

And, are Jazz fans complaining about flopping?

Oh My.

Kori, Manu did not flop on that play. If you look at it, Manu stumbled sideways, and Fisher, then flew sideways in an even more exaggerated movement...it was hilarious, because Fisher made the bump to draw contact, so he could flop, then Manu turned the tables on him and got the foul called instead.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Am I really the only person that thought Fisher flopped on the previous play with Manu rolling around the pick?

[Kori Ellis]

To me, there's two kinds of flopping.

1. You don't get hit at all and fall to the ground like you got shot and flop like a fish These kind of flops should be a foul (or tech) on the flopper.

2. You get hit (but not very hard) and exagerate the contact to make sure the ref calls it your way. This is crafty and shouldn't be penalized.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, Manu did not flop on that play. If you look at it, Manu stumbled sideways, and Fisher, then flew sideways in an even more exaggerated movement...it was hilarious, because Fisher made the bump to draw contact, so he could flop, then Manu turned the tables on him and got the foul called instead.

Both Manu and Fisher flopped. Manu definitely exaggerated the contact.

Apparently he flops so well, he even fooled you.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

To me, there's two kinds of flopping.

1. You don't get hit at all and fall to the ground like you got shot and flop like a fish These kind of flops should be a foul (or tech) on the flopper.

2. You get hit (but not very hard) and exagerate the contact to make sure the ref calls it your way. This is crafty and shouldn't be penalized.

I can agree to that. If there's contact, how do you make a judgment call over how hard the contact was when you might not have the full angle?

[hater]

Am I really the only person that thought Fisher flopped on the previous play with Manu rolling around the pick?

that was clearly flopping type 1(see Kori's post)

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

that was clearly flopping type 1(see Kori's post)

Another part of my thinking with that is: If you flop and there's a no-call (Fisher on the roll) and your man goes and scores, that's on you.

[Jimcs50]

Both Manu and Fisher flopped. Manu definitely exaggerated the contact.

Apparently he flops so well, he even fooled you.

I might be a little biased.

[SpursWoman]

1) Robert Horry's monstrous flop in Game 3 of the Utah series. Big Flop Bob strikes again.

Horry has performed 2 of the worst, most blatant flops I've ever seen in my life during this series so far.

[MadDog73]

Here's the thing, I LOVE Manu Ginobili's game! Honestly. Ever since 2004-05, he was one of my favorite players to watch play. I just hate flopping. As I've said before, I hate the fact that Rip Hamilton flops. I think he's a drama queen. I hate that he tries to act like Rasheed and about calls all the time. I still support him because he's on the Pistons, and I still think he has a great and unique game. But, I hate his flopping and drama.

I criticize Manu's flopping because he's simply TOO GOOD to have to resort to it. He doesn't need any flopping at all in his game to be effective. I think he's one of the best slashers in the game. And, I think he's one of the better defensive shooting guards in the game. I think he's clutch. He doesn't need to flop.

Why would I not criticize Fisher or Kirilenko about their flopping? Derek Fisher is and always will be a role player. He has to flop because he doesn't have the game to compete if he isn't taking every single advantage he can on the court. Kirilenko? This year, he proved to be a one trick pony and a fragile little girl. He is unstable and he isn't tough. I expect him to flop because he doesn't have the mental toughness not to do that stupid .

Manu is mentally tough. He's one of the toughest players in the league along with Allen Iverson and Kobe, in both mental toughness and being able to take physical contact. I truly believe that.

That's why I criticize Manu. He's too good to flop. He's too good.

Well said sir.

[BlackFlagg]

"Ruin" the series... Yeah, ruined the series for Jazz fans is more like it.

So Manu can work a flop. BFD. Most players can (and do). Bottom line is, if the Jazz had won last night, this wouldn't have even been mentioned, much less had a topic built around it.

The Spurs simply owned some ass last night and played their hearts out. Stay tuned! There's more of that coming your way.

[TampaDude]

Kirilenko is the winner by FAR!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUJW_8KzzZc

Damn...did somebody Taser him???

[Borosai]

Fisher didn't get his first T because Manu exaggerated the contact. He got T'd up because he saw Manu coming, intentionally bumped him out of frustration, and most importantly, the ref saw it coming. Manu sold it, of course, but it was clearly premeditated, and that's why he got a tech.

Throughout the game, the refs weren't giving defenders the benefit of the doubt. To start the game, the Jazz went to the line a bunch of times, while the Spurs didn't shoot a single FT. Why? Aggressiveness. There were multiple times when the defenders took contact and fell, and the refs didn't call the offensive foul (Boozer lowered his shoulder into Manu, Parker bumped Williams out of the way). The offensive player got the benefit of the doubt in game 4, and since the Spurs (aka Manu) started attacking down the stretch, they benefited.

Manu did the smart thing and attacked. He ruined the series for the Jazz... that's all.

Great post.

[Jimcs50]

"Ruin" the series... Yeah, ruined the series for Jazz fans is more like it.

So Manu can work a flop. BFD. Most players can (and do). Bottom line is, if the Jazz had won last night, this wouldn't have even been mentioned, much less had a topic built around it.

The Spurs simply owned some ass last night and played their hearts out. Stay tuned! There's more of that coming your way.

Bottom line is really that the media are pissed at SA and think they cheated to beat Phoenix and they will use any reason to belittle their accomplishments this season now.

We have to accept that SA will now be a hated team. Now, is it better to be ignored or be hated? That is the $64,000 question.

What do you think?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think I failed to answer the threads initial question, so I will here: Manure's flop didn't "ruin" the series by any stretch of the imagination.

[BreezeHillBill]

My list of most egregious floppers in the league today includes Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson (mostly while on offense), Anderson Varajao, Raja Bell, Shane Battier, Jarron Collins, Derek Fisher, and Manu Ginobli. I may be leaving some out, but this list is pretty comprehensive, and I feel most NBA viewers would agree.

I always thought that John Stockton was the most consistent and obvious flopper.

[TampaDude]

Bottom line is really that the media are pissed at SA and think they cheated to beat Phoenix and they will use any reason to belittle their accomplishments this season now.

We have to accept that SA will now be a hated team. Now, is it better to be ignored or be hated? That is the $64,000 question.

What do you think?

As long as all the ghetto hucks don't start wearing Spurs gear because they think it's "gangsta", I'm fine with it...let the haters hate...we'll just keep on winning...

[sa_butta]

I always thought that John Stockton was the most consistent and obvious flopper.

2nd to Vlade Divac.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Neither are still in the leauge. Sorry, fellas. I said current players.

[sa_butta]

To me, there's two kinds of flopping.

1. You don't get hit at all and fall to the ground like you got shot and flop like a fish These kind of flops should be a foul (or tech) on the flopper.

See Robert Horry in game three for expample.

[LifeOnaPlate]

If ANYTHING "ruined" the series, so to speak, it is the fact that it is being made out to be "astericks," flops, whining about officiating, poor fan behavior, dumb nba conspiracy theories, etc. I wish it could just be about basketball.

[Obstructed_View]

Both Manu and Fisher flopped. Manu definitely exaggerated the contact.

Apparently he flops so well, he even fooled you.

Fisher initiated the contact, and got punished for being both a bad actor and really stupid. He watched where Manu was going, veered into his path, turned his head away and stiffened up his shoulder to throw his weight into the collision. Manu didn't need to exaggerate the contact, he just made sure to take the hit squarely so the officials would get Fisher for doing something so stupid right on the heels of the previous play. The officials were going to tag Fisher for it regardless, and Manu knew that. The closest I saw to a real flop was on Fisher's second technical when Manu anticipated the foul and let Fisher pull him down.

[Amare_32]

I feel a case of deja vu.