How good is the Cavs Defense?

[ambchang]

1.) The comment was that New Jersey is "abysmal" offensively, not that they're a juggernaut. They're neither.

2.) My rejoinder was "You know what Kidd can do." He's a very capable player.

New Jersey is 12th in the NBA in ppg, 7th in fg pct, and 4th in adjusted fg pct. They're not a bad offensive team.

Not by my count, they are 15th in PPG, 18th in FG%, and 7th in Adjusted FG%.

This is at best pedestrial, and out of the 16 playoff teams, the Net ranks 11th in PPG, 12th in FG%, 7th in adjusted FG% in the regular season.

The numbers you are looking at are playoff numbers, and it is highly skewed because teams play 1 opponent for an extended period of time. These are number put up for the Nets playing 50% of their games against the Raptors, who are one of the worst defensive teams in the league.
And 12th out of 16th is abysmal in my view, that is at the 25% percentile.

[BWJACKETS]

In all the NBA i can think of only a handful of defenders I would rather have defending Lebron than Bowen. There is a whole slew of people i would rather have defend Duncan than Gooden, Lurch and Sideshow.

We matchup better with James than you do with Duncan. This is before you start talking about Parker and Ginobilli.

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. First off, Bowen is way too old and slow to defend Lebron, five minutes into game one James will have blown past him several times or have gotten him into foul trouble and your defense will have to pull other guys off...no single player can defend James and in most cases two guys can't defend him either.

Duncan is a great big man, however Cleveland has big men to combat your big man...two of them, as a matter of fact. Varajao and Z won't be able to stop Duncan, but they will be able to slow him down and force him to make some mistakes. The Cavs will double Duncan and play man to man with San Antonio's backcourt. If the Spurs can knock their shots down, congratulations, however Cleveland will be determined not to "let" Tim Duncan beat them anymore than San Antonio will "let" James beat them. It will come down to who which star plays bigger, Parker and Ginobili I really think will not have the kind of impact that Spurs fans think they will.

[Extra Stout]

Well, getting other teammates involved in the scoring against Detroit didn't seem to be a problem, did it?? It isn't like Cleveland has a bunch of amatuers out there next to Lebron, it isn't like these guys are the worst offensive team in the league and none of their shots are going to fall. Cleveland dominated and controlled Detroit, a very good team in their own right. Guys like Gibson, Z, Marshall, and others are going to knock down shots. When Lebron gets to the basket, these guys are going to be getting wide open looks. In any case, the Cavs have already beaten the Spurs once this season in a game where Lebron only scored 19, so I guess there goes your argument.

Gregg Popovich understands the concept of taking away complementary scorers. Flip Saunders does not. Gregg Popvich understands the concept of mixing up defensive looks. Flip Saunders did not.

Gregg Popovich is an utterly superior defensive strategist to Flip Saunders under all cir stances. The Pistons play good defense some of the time only because they remember some of what they were taught back when they had a real coach.

The Cavs are going to hold the Spurs below their scoring average, but outside of LeBron, they are going to struggle mightily to put points on the board. They put up 89.7 against Detroit. They'll average 85 or so against the Spurs.

The Spurs will average somewhere between 88 and 90.

[Marcus Bryant]

First off, Bowen is way too old and slow to defend...

(insert player name here).

How little they learn.

[Extra Stout]

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. First off, Bowen is way too old and slow to defend Lebron, five minutes into game one James will have blown past him several times or have gotten him into foul trouble and your defense will have to pull other guys off...no single player can defend James and in most cases two guys can't defend him either.

Exaggerate much?

[Marcus Bryant]

Gregg Popovich understands the concept of taking away complementary scorers. Flip Saunders does not. Gregg Popvich understands the concept of mixing up defensive looks. Flip Saunders did not.

Gregg Popovich is an utterly superior defensive strategist to Flip Saunders under all cir stances. The Pistons play good defense some of the time only because they remember some of what they were taught back when they had a real coach.

The Cavs are going to hold the Spurs below their scoring average, but outside of LeBron, they are going to struggle mightily to put points on the board. They put up 89.7 against Detroit. They'll average 85 or so against the Spurs.

The Spurs will average somewhere between 88 and 90.

No kidding. Cav Fan seems to think they beat the Pistons with Ben Wallace starting at the 5 and LB on the bench.

[mardigan]

BWJ, have you ever actually watched the SPurs play? Or even basketball in general?
It seems to me you just picked up an issue of ESPN the magazine and thats all you have to base your arguments off of

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. First off, Bowen is way too old and slow to defend Lebron, five minutes into game one James will have blown past him several times or have gotten him into foul trouble and your defense will have to pull other guys off...no single player can defend James and in most cases two guys can't defend him either.

Duncan is a great big man, however Cleveland has big men to combat your big man...two of them, as a matter of fact. Varajao and Z won't be able to stop Duncan, but they will be able to slow him down and force him to make some mistakes. The Cavs will double Duncan and play man to man with San Antonio's backcourt. If the Spurs can knock their shots down, congratulations, however Cleveland will be determined not to "let" Tim Duncan beat them anymore than San Antonio will "let" James beat them. It will come down to who which star plays bigger, Parker and Ginobili I really think will not have the kind of impact that Spurs fans think they will.

who is better at defending James than Bowen?

And i love how Sideshow and Lurch who are marginal man defenders are goign to slow down and force mistakes moreso than Bowen who is a top 5 man defender.

damn the kooliad in cleveland must be good.

[BWJACKETS]

The Cavs beat the Spurs in the second game of a back to back after an exhausting victory the night before with a hobbled Parker and in a home game that featured 25 minutes of Matt Bonner. Lest we forget that Beno Udrih was actually in the rotation and Pop had yet to make the traditional switch in the starting lineup between Ginobili and his backup. The Spurs once went 10-10 to start a season and won a championship at the end. The early regular season matchups are meaningless except to those who need to hype this series as something other than the Spurs rolling through yet another inferior Eastern Conference team on their way to their 4th le.

You are way too y, get ready for the big fall. Lebron James is going to prove without any doubt that he is the best in the league when the Cavs win the Championship and he is named MVP. ON PAPER San Antonio is better but you would have to be a complete moron to bet everything you have on what is on paper. Cavs aren't inferior, in fact they have been the best defensive team in the playoffs and they have the best single player in the playoffs to boot.

[Marcus Bryant]

You are way too y, get ready for the big fall. Lebron James is going to prove without any doubt that he is the best in the league when the Cavs win the Championship and he is named MVP. ON PAPER San Antonio is better but you would have to be a complete moron to bet everything you have on what is on paper. Cavs aren't inferior, in fact they have been the best defensive team in the playoffs and they have the best single player in the playoffs to boot.

iness comes with experience. You can't dress up the regular season to make it something it wasn't. The Cavs' great playoff defense has come against 3 of the worst offenses in the playoffs. Impressive.

And the only thing Cav Fan is hanging his hat on besides two early season wins against a sleepwalking Spurs team is that ON PAPER they have the best playoff FG% defense against a Wizards team with their stars gone, a sucky Nets team and an imploding Piston team with defensive genius Flip Saunders at the helm.

[FromWayDowntown]

Parker and Ginobili I really think will not have the kind of impact that Spurs fans think they will.

Because, really, those guys have never gotten it done at playoff time -- least of all against good defensive teams.

[Marcus Bryant]

Because, really, those guys have never gotten it done at playoff time -- least of all against good defensive teams.

Somehow the Cavs are going to stop their penetration, shut down TD, and close out on the Spurs' shooters. Man, that Kleveland Kool-Aid is potent.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are way too y, get ready for the big fall. Lebron James is going to prove without any doubt that he is the best in the league when the Cavs win the Championship and he is named MVP. ON PAPER San Antonio is better but you would have to be a complete moron to bet everything you have on what is on paper. Cavs aren't inferior, in fact they have been the best defensive team in the playoffs and they have the best single player in the playoffs to boot.

For the fifth time now. Using statistics that involve no common opponent is worthless to compare two teams.

The Nuggets, Suns and Jazz were top 8 in FG shooting %. The Suns and Jazz were 1st and 3rd respectively during the regular season.

The Nets, Wizards and Pistons were 17, 20 and 21. So hang your hat on those performance against the worst shooting teams in the playoffs.

[Spurminator]

Hope is so cute sometimes.

[ambchang]

Duncan may be "better" according to Spurs fans, I myself would call them equally great, however whereas Duncan is focused on playing in the post 75% of the time, James is all over the court so he can have a larger impact on the game. However, you would have to be crazy to dismiss Duncan in this series- I know he will get his points, but the most anticipated matchup in my mind is Duncan guarding the basket defensively when Lebron drives the lane. Everybody remembers what happened at the start of the season when Lebron took Duncan to school, whether or not Duncan can stop Lebron from finishing will tell everybody alot about how this series is going to go.

So Duncan is equally great to a 4th year who hasn't done anything of significance? Got you.
Then there is this claim that just left me speechless, it's so amusing I have to quote it again.

however whereas Duncan is focused on playing in the post 75% of the time, James is all over the court so he can have a larger impact on the game.

How long have you been watching the game? Rule #1 of building a basketball team is to have a dominant big man. It's nice to have a great wing player like Jordan, Magic, or ahem Lebron, but in the history of the league, most teams have won with a dominating big man because it is so much easier to build around one.
6'6" guys who can shoot open 3 pointers are much easier to find than 7'0" who can defend the middle and do a servicable job, just because genetically, humans are much shorter than 7'0", so if you can find a dominant big man, you do not have to worry about getting a 7' role player who is not a stiff, where as if you have dominant wing player, you still need a 7' role player who is not a stiff (ala Cartwright, Grant, old Jabbar, Laimbeer, etc....).
In basketball, a big man ALWAYS have a larger impact than little guys, thats why in the history of the league, there are way more big man MVPs than perimeter MVPs, and even the perimeter MVPs are 6'6", 6'9 guys like Jordan and Magic.
In fact, the only perimeter MVPs are:
Nash, Iverson, Jordan, Magic (even though both MJs spend an incredible amount of time posting up), Dr. J, Oscar Robertson (who also posts up more often than not), and Cousy, and this is despite the fact that there are more perimeter players than post players (well, 3 to 2 specifically), and the reason is because good low post players make MUCH more impact than a good perimeter player ever could.
And I just shake my head at how James dunking on Duncan in the early part of the season is indicative of how he would get Duncan into foul trouble in the NBA finals, when Duncan was neither seriously dunked on, nor was Duncan called for a foul in the play. Your logic is truly truly amusing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh and by the way the Spurs were 2nd in shooting % and 4th in opponent FG %. 1st in point differential overall.

Quite frankly, the Cavs have not sniffed a team of the SPurs quality in these playoffs.

[Marcus Bryant]

Cav Fan should have paid attention to what happened last series to a Jazz team with an efficient offense, strong defense, and great rebounding. Utah was only 3 places (or 0.7%) behind the Cavs' in opponents' FG% this season. Utah is also 5th in opponents' FG% (at 44.1%) in the playoffs and that was with the Jazz facing the Rockets (41.0% FG) for 7 games in the 1st round.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh and by the way the Spurs were 2nd in shooting % and 4th in opponent FG %. 1st in point differential overall.

Quite frankly, the Cavs have not sniffed a team of the SPurs quality in these playoffs.

Also of note is that the Spurs were 6th in total rebounds allowed and 4th in offensive rebounds allowed this season...

[ambchang]

I was just noting that none of San Antonio's opponents in the playoffs thus far are any good on defense. I simply added the points scored in my post to make them visible to the rest of the board for reference.

That's why the Spurs capitalized on this fact by beating those teams 12-4 in the 3 rounds, ranked #5 in ppg, #3 in FG% and adjusted FG% in the playoffs, while Cavs couldn't shoot well against a Detroit team that allowed the Magic to shoot 47.75%.
However, I don't think the Cavs should be penalized for the opponents, and playing weak opponents does enhance a team's chances in the finals a great deal due to reasons like fatigue, and not showing all their cards for the other team to scout.
And Utah ranked 11th in OPP FG%, while Cavs ranked 8th. In fact, the difference in OPP FG% between Spurs and Cavs is similar to the difference between Cavs and Utah.

[Marcus Bryant]

That's why the Spurs capitalized on this fact by beating those teams 12-4 in the 3 rounds, ranked #5 in ppg, #3 in FG% and adjusted FG% in the playoffs, while Cavs couldn't shoot well against a Detroit team that allowed the Magic to shoot 47.75%.
However, I don't think the Cavs should be penalized for the opponents, and playing weak opponents does enhance a team's chances in the finals a great deal due to reasons like fatigue, and not showing all their cards for the other team to scout.
And Utah ranked 11th in OPP FG%, while Cavs ranked 8th. In fact, the difference in OPP FG% between Spurs and Cavs is similar to the difference between Cavs and Utah.

The Spurs' playoff opponents thusfar were 11th, 14th, and 15th in opponents' FG% this season and 1st, 3rd, and 7th in own FG%.

The Cavs' playoff opponents were 6th, 9th, and 27th in opponents' FG% this season and 17th, 20th and 23rd in own FG%.

The Spurs were 4th in opponents' FG% this season and 2nd in own FG%.

The Cavs were 8th in opponents' FG% this season and 24th in own FG%.

The Spurs' opponents were relatively better on their weaker side of the court (defense) than the Cavs' opponents were on theirs (offense). In addition, the Spurs' opponents were on the whole much more dominant on their strong side of the court (offense) than the Cavs' opponents were on their strong side (defense).

Head to head, the disparity between the Spurs and the Cavs in own FG% is striking and foretells a 5 game series win for the Spurs.

[RUSUREBOUTHAT?]

z and ducan will cancel eachother out for the most part. the most that duncan could possibly put up is 30 and thats a stretch. he is good for twenty & so is z. second off Sasha and finley will cancell eachother out. both are good role players but neither can take over a game. Parker will have the advantage over hughes going into tonight, but i think larrys size will give him a little bit of a problem. Gibson and manu r a wash. manu just doesnt put up numbers on the cavaliers. and finally lebron will not only own bowen ( who talks alot of trash considering the task a hand) but he will shred the san antonio defense completely. Say what u want. U shut down kobe, Carmello, Boozer, Nash, etc. But the fact is that these guys dont make their team better the way that lebron does. it was mental with the pistons. make no bones about it lebron simply doesnt have a hang up on the spurs. He could care less about them. He didnt come this far to lose. U will see how badly san antonio's D underestimates the speed of james. the cavs know it I know it & after tonight Pop will know It. Cavs in 6.

[Marcus Bryant]

z and ducan will cancel eachother out for the most part. the most that duncan could possibly put up is 30 and thats a stretch. he is good for twenty & so is z. second off Sasha and finley will cancell eachother out. both are good role players but neither can take over a game. Parker will have the advantage over hughes going into tonight, but i think larrys size will give him a little bit of a problem. Gibson and manu r a wash. manu just doesnt put up numbers on the cavaliers. and finally lebron will not only own bowen ( who talks alot of trash considering the task a hand) but he will shred the san antonio defense completely. Say what u want. U shut down kobe, Carmello, Boozer, Nash, etc. But the fact is that these guys dont make their team better the way that lebron does. it was mental with the pistons. make no bones about it lebron simply doesnt have a hang up on the spurs. He could care less about them. He didnt come this far to lose. U will see how badly san antonio's D underestimates the speed of james. the cavs know it I know it & after tonight Pop will know It. Cavs in 6.

Crank kills.

[mardigan]

z and ducan will cancel eachother out for the most part. Gibson and manu r a wash

These are two of the dumbest comments ever uttered on Spurstalk. Ever.

And Nash doesnt make his team better? You sir, are an idiot

[RUSUREBOUTHAT?]

not the same way that james does u re . They cant rely on nash to take over a game. And if james was on the suns instead of nash, the suns would be in the finals. If nash was on the cavs instead of james, we'd have been in the lottery this year.

[MadDog73]

If "Z" scores 20 points a game, then the Cavs indeed have a chance.

That's not going to happen. Despite some sports writers opinions, Duncan actually plays pretty good Defense.