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Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)
A) He's 22-year-old and has played less organized basketball than anyone in the league at his age. How do Spurs fans expect him to be a decent defender when he hasn't played that much basketball at a high level?
B) He is improving. From last preseason to summer league, he has gotten a lot better. He shows on pick-and-rolls a lot better and his rotations are getting better. He's definitely a work in progress.
C) He is still losing weight. Diop and Haslem went from horrible defenders to great defenders after getting in shape. If Butler lost weight, got some experience and continued to learn, there's no reason why he couldn't be a decent defender down the road.
You obviously aren't watching the summer league games. When he's fresh, he has routinely beat everyone up and down the court. His speed is greatly improved. He still has problems with endurance ... but that is correctable.
He's rebounding well in summer league. He's averaging more rebounds total and more rebounds per minute than anyone on the team. And that's including Donnell Harvey, who all he does out there is try to rebound the ball.
Butler is leading the team in rebounds, leading the team in rebounds per minute, got 12 boards against one of the better front lines in summer league (Powe and Big Baby) and it's still not enough for a 22-year-old center who is still learning the game and getting in better shape?
Uh, the Spurs did have an open roster spot. Justin Williams was waived on October 27th. James White was signed on November 3rd. And what makes you think the Spurs have the domestic scouting available to find a gem?
When this team has looked for domestic talent that was free during the year, it's come away with players like Melvin Sanders, Dion Glover and Alex Scales.
Yeah, it sucks to have a center leading a summer league team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks who is younger than a lot of players in the 2007 draft. It especially sucks because he has played less organized basketball than practically anyone who was drafted in the first round.
Butler is an improving, young bigman prospect with a huge amount of untapped potential. He could be great in the future or he could suck. He hasn't played enough to figure it out one way or the other.
Selling low on Butler makes no sense to me. Sure he still has trouble defensively and needs to get better conditioned. But he's going along that path.
How great would Fabricio Oberto have been at 22-year-old plus thirty pounds in the Spurs program? He'd have been thousands of times worse than Butler. Even if David Robinson was out of shape and joining this team at 22, he still wouldn't have done much more than Butler did.
The impatience and short-sightedness of the Spurs and Spurs fans is amazing in this situation. They want to give away an improving bigman prospect who at 22 can already dominate the summer league level, has a high basketball IQ and still has plenty of room to work on his conditioning.
Amazing.
Butler is a tough mactchup but he's too dumb to learn the plays. (read between the lines.)
I guess the Spurs can bring in Mahinmi as their 'future bigman project' at one-fourth the cost. Great.
Spurs need an excuse when they can't admit it's about the $. Butler's shown more knowledge of the game than Mahinmi.
Butler's basketball IQ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Elson and Mahinmi combined.
I wouldn't get rid of Butler unless you're gettting similar talent in return. Dropping him to stay under the cap (trading for a 2nd rounder) would be a huge mistake.
That's the only place you can get that kind of take.
Like LJ said, he's improving every facet of his game and he's so young with a ton of potential.
The Spurs are already in spin mode trying to explain away the upcoming trade of him for 'cap space', i.e., getting underneath the luxury tax threshold.
It's lame. And so is our front office.
butler can play during the regular season
horry is a no show tell way after allstar break
Butler has the potential to be a solid starting 5 in this league, one who could put up 13-15 points, 8 to 10 boards, and 2 blocks a night. It's way too early to be giving up on him. Jack was just as raw, if not moreso, and the Spurs kept him after his first year in SA on IR.
Jettisoning Butler at this point would be pretty stupid, but I'd expect nothing less from Buford, one of the most overrated front office types in the NBA today.
If they're going to trade someone, it needs to be one of Barry and/or Udrih.
Splitter >>>>>>Butler. Look at the whole picture instead of Summer League.
He has been playing in a damn good Euro league, has good moves and hands especially on the pick and roll, good speed for a big, rebounds and will score some and will play tough D.
Almost as important: since TD is playing closer to the basket now, he can move outside to the high post.
As soon as they got Splitter, Butler became yesterday's news. Get what you can for him.
What do they say about putting up stats on a reaalllly bad team. How's the young fellows FG%. Butler rotates out on the P&R now you're right. Problem is his rotations back make Shaq look like DRob.A) He's 22-year-old and has played less organized basketball than anyone in the league at his age. How do Spurs fans expect him to be a decent defender when he hasn't played that much basketball at a high level?
B) He is improving. From last preseason to summer league, he has gotten a lot better. He shows on pick-and-rolls a lot better and his rotations are getting better. He's definitely a work in progress.
C) He is still losing weight. Diop and Haslem went from horrible defenders to great defenders after getting in shape. If Butler lost weight, got some experience and continued to learn, there's no reason why he couldn't be a decent defender down the road.
You obviously aren't watching the summer league games. When he's fresh, he has routinely beat everyone up and down the court. His speed is greatly improved. He still has problems with endurance ... but that is correctable.
He's rebounding well in summer league. He's averaging more rebounds total and more rebounds per minute than anyone on the team. And that's including Donnell Harvey, who all he does out there is try to rebound the ball.
Butler is leading the team in rebounds, leading the team in rebounds per minute, got 12 boards against one of the better front lines in summer league (Powe and Big Baby) and it's still not enough for a 22-year-old center who is still learning the game and getting in better shape?
Uh, the Spurs did have an open roster spot. Justin Williams was waived on October 27th. James White was signed on November 3rd. And what makes you think the Spurs have the domestic scouting available to find a gem?
When this team has looked for domestic talent that was free during the year, it's come away with players like Melvin Sanders, Dion Glover and Alex Scales.
Yeah, it sucks to have a center leading a summer league team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks who is younger than a lot of players in the 2007 draft. It especially sucks because he has played less organized basketball than practically anyone who was drafted in the first round.
Butler is an improving, young bigman prospect with a huge amount of untapped potential. He could be great in the future or he could suck. He hasn't played enough to figure it out one way or the other.
Selling low on Butler makes no sense to me. Sure he still has trouble defensively and needs to get better conditioned. But he's going along that path.
How great would Fabricio Oberto have been at 22-year-old plus thirty pounds in the Spurs program? He'd have been thousands of times worse than Butler. Even if David Robinson was out of shape and joining this team at 22, he still wouldn't have done much more than Butler did.
The impatience and short-sightedness of the Spurs and Spurs fans is amazing in this situation. They want to give away an improving bigman prospect who at 22 can already dominate the summer league level, has a high basketball IQ and still has plenty of room to work on his conditioning.
Amazing.
I remember Pop talking to Butler about Moses Malone and watching tape of his game. Malone should sue for him slander.
Sanizkhadzi >>>>>> White. Again, look at the big picture. From what I could tell of the reports of the Summer league, most people who watched thought Sani was a keeper with lots of upside potential--probably more than White.
Apparently Sani is taller and better shot and rebounder than White and plays good Defense with lots of hustle. LOOOONG THREE>with hands and moves.
White's biggest attribute is that he can jump high & dunk--as long as there's no contact going up. BFD.
You need someone to give TD a rest. It would be nice if they could post up. Butler can provide that. Not every international prospect who comes down the pike is guaranteed to pan out.
The 'whole picture' is that Splitter replaces Elson.
Splitter is like an improved Elson. He's nothing like Butler. He has no post game to speak of. Not a good passer. Doesn't have an especially high basketball IQ. He'll be a below average scorer on the NBA level.
Yeah, he'll be a good defender and he's fast but it's a bad comparison because they are nothing alike. Splitter is a light power forward. Butler is a center.
in marginal and slight defense of Ludden not mentioning Sanikidze, who only played limited minutes, is that Sanikidze hasn't been mentioned at all in any of the summer league game breakdowns at either draftexpress or nbadraft. Though of course as a former 2nd round pick of the Spurs he deserved at least a brief mention from Ludden.
The realllly bad team won two games against teams with much more talent.
45%. Take out his eight missed dunks and it'd be 52%. If he would have made those dunks, he'd be at 60%.
Again, 22-years-old. He's as old as a standard rookie. Plus his conditioning can improve.
There is no hope for improvement defensively? Would a 22-year-old David Robinson plus 30 pounds and minus college experience be much better?
Yeah, because at 22 with little basketball experience, Butler has obviously peaked and has no room for improvement.
What makes sense is to put Elson back in his 12th man role where the Spurs found him, play Butler behind Oberto and see what they have. If he doesn't show enough, you trade him for whatever it is you can get (which would be the same as what you could get for him now). If he starts to tap into his potential, you can either keep him or get much more in a trade than you can get now.
Trading him this summer is the stupidest option of them all.
Splitter has decent post moves, or at least above marginal, though not in Butler's class. He cuts very well off the ball, however. I'd say his basketball IQ is pretty high. Not Oberto class, but more than good. He know the game and is a smart defender, even at times to the perimeter; his pick and roll defense and recoveries would be top notch. He might be a below average scorer in the NBA, but we haven't needed scoring from our center position in a long time.
If Butler truly has all the talent and potential you see in him I'll be looking forward to that high first round draft the Spurs can garner in the deal.The realllly bad team won two games against teams with much more talent.
45%. Take out his eight missed dunks and it'd be 52%. If he would have made those dunks, he'd be at 60%.
Again, 22-years-old. He's as old as a standard rookie. Plus his conditioning can improve.
There is no hope for improvement defensively? Would a 22-year-old David Robinson plus 30 pounds and minus college experience be much better?
Yeah, because at 22 with little basketball experience, Butler has obviously peaked and has no room for improvement.
Spurs will keep Butler, unless there's a deal sitting which is just too ridiculous to pass up. I'm sure there's a lot of interest in him, but I think the Spurs see a lot of potential in him. The biggest issue, has been is at ude, which is beginning to turn around. With White, I'm not sure what to expect. The coaching staff could be stiring up the kettle with White, maybe let his emotions push him a little more. Just b/c Newmann has been critical, doesn't mean the Spurs are down on White. Quite often, critisim comes b/c a player is capable of more. So, in an attempt to get this potential outta White, the Spurs stir up the kettle a little.
I've never seen a decent post move out of Splitter. He has robotic, rudimentary moves on the low block. Tau doesn't even give him much chances to score on the low blow block because he has so few moves down there.
His basketball IQ is decent but nothing to write back to Brazil about. He doesn't have the greatest of instincts. It's an improvement over Elson, but not much higher at this point.
Only way you get value for him is if you keep him and trade him when his value increases. If you trade him off now, everyone knows the Spurs are desperate and they'll land something like a second round pick.
I understand the point you're trying to make, and don't disagree with much, I'd just like to say that bringing up David Robinson, even with qualifiers like an extra 30 pounds and no NCAA experience, is ridiculous, no matter the qualifiers.
Robinson was 21 when he was the #1 pick even when everyone knew they'd have to wait 2 years to get him. The reason Robinson never weighed an extra 30 pounds may mostly be genetics, but lifestyle played at least a part of it.
So yes, a 22 David Robinson would be much better.
You don't post Splitter up, but he can toss in hooks and can make shots with both hands. Perhaps I overstated, but he will score on offensive rebounds - where he's terrific - and on cuts. Defensively he's very good with a very nice understanding of the game. I'd write back to Brazil about his basketball IQ. It's at least as good as Butler, if in another way.
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