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  1. #126
    Believe.
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    That video is ridiculous if you're trying to prove that Donaghy was affecting the score of that game.

    I'll give you that the Manu foul is su ious now, but it's not THAT unusual for the outside official to make that call, particularly where the offensive player complains the way Ginobili did at the end of that play. Also, Donaghy is the baseline official who refuses to make the call on Amare's drive at 2:50 of the 4th, but officials blow that call all the time too.

    In the best case scenario for Suns whiners, that's two calls that might implicate Donaghy. The video should have ended there and saved me the next 4:10 of my life.

    As for the rest:

    1. Amare's 4th foul -- the offensive foul with Oberto flopping -- at 10:35 of the 4th (2:40 on the video) was called (clearly) by Eddie F. Rush. I'm not sure what that has to do with Donaghy.

    2. The Duncan/Nash block-charge call at 6:15 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:15 or so in the video) is a call made by Greg Willard, not Tim Donaghy. The replay also shows that Nash is bailing out before contact, which makes the block call against him correct.

    3. The call on Diaw at 6:46 of the 3rd quarter (about 3:55 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

    4. The offensive foul on Bowen at the 11:00 mark of the 3rd (about 4:25 on the video) is also made by Eddie F. Rush.

    5. The technical foul on D'Antoni at 7:29 of the 4th (about 5:20 on the video) is called by Greg Willard. On the previous play, Nash thinks he got fouled; regardless of the merits of his complaint, the two officials on that side of the floor are Willard and Rush. On both the Nash play and the technical foul, Donaghy is across the floor and near midcourt.

    6. The no-call at 6:09 of the 4th on Nash (about 6:11 on the video) is made by Eddie F. Rush.

    If the point of the video is to complain that NBA officiating can be inconsistent, it does show that. If the point of the video is to suggest that Donaghy affected the outcome of that game by the fact that he officiated the game, it's a long way from doing that.
    How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.

    Yet it did happen in Spurs Suns Game 3. If you want to influence the outcome of a game as a ref, the easiest way to do it is to get the other team's best player in foul trouble so he's relegated to the bench.

    2 of the fouls on Stoudemire on that game were simply horrible. A clean block on Duncan called a foul, then a blatant flop by Oberto. The Horry foul on Stoudemire was iffy at best as well. Horry throws himself into Amare, purely to draw the foul. You don't see superstars getting the short end of calls with the likes of 3rd tier players like Oberto and Horry.

    Watch that video and you can see 2 awful calls and 1 borderline one (one awful actually) involving Duncan that all go his way, what you'd expect for a superstar. The play when Nash slides under him to draw the charge is one that can go either way. It goes Duncan's way. The next play Duncan is setting a screen on Diaw. Duncan blatantly sticks his hip out (pretty dirty play actually) to initiate the contact with Diaw and then takes a dive. Foul called on Diaw. Horrible call. Probably the worst call in this video. A very clear offensive foul.

    Next play Duncan clubs Stoudemire's arm. No foul called.

    In Duncan's case, he gets every call in this video basically and we see Oberto's ridiculous flop on Amare.

    I think it goes without say that as a ref if you are trying to manipulate a game, you can't do it as effectively on your own. The easiest way to do it is to setup a kickback with fellow refs doing the game (as ESPN is reporting, other refs have been reported to be involved as well). Why would the mob pay off one ref only when they know they are 3 refs total and paying off one ref doesn't insure you of much of advantage unless the other refs are in play as well? They are only buying a marginal advantage with one ref on the books.

    BTW, that Donaghy call on Ginobili was not only the worst, but most bizarre of the playoffs. Not only is he at midcourt, but he calls it a solid 3-4 seconds after the play is occurred. If any call screams of foul play, that would be the one.

    Acting like it's only Suns whiners who think there's some fire here is crazy. These guys at Fox Sports, Bill Simmons, etc aren't Suns fans. They just hate that a series was decided by factors other than on court play (dirty cheap shot by Horry, suspensions benefitting the perpetrating team, ref paid off by the mob, etc).

    If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.

  2. #127
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.

    The piss poor officiating is really what's to blame for everything in the Spurs-Suns series that went horribly wrong. The Suns were bailed out and won FT disparity on the road in what can arguably be called the swing game of that series. Horry was letting the free world know that something wasn't right via taking it out on Nash. I don't think he was counting on the Suns young star basically proving to the world that giving up college for the NBA is a mistake. Honestly I doubt Amare could file his own tax return after seeing that .

    The only conspiracy here is that whottt very curiously said the Spurs would have a better shot against Phoenix if they could somehow bait Raja Bell into doing something stupid similar to his WWE foul on Kobe that got him suspended the previous season. Amare and Diaw getting suspended instead of Bell was a huge bonus. Now if only I wasn't too lazy to search for that post...

  3. #128
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.
    You might have a case if this were somehow an aberration from the regular season. It wasn't. Amare is a clueless who has no idea how to play defense and NOT pick up fouls, as witnesses by the fact that he had the second highest amount of raw fouls (295) and second highest fouls per game (3.7) in the NBA last season.

  4. #129
    Believe. OsakaSpurs's Avatar
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    You could just see the smirk on Robert's face if asked if he wanted to play the Sun's again to prove it. You could feel Nash's headache coming back too.

    Har har har!

  5. #130
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    It could have not have happen to a better commissioner! BTW I thought it was Violet Palmer when I first heard about the investigation.

  6. #131
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    I will still watch the NBA regardless.

  7. #132
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.
    Just one? Okay -- here's one -- Game 3 of the 1999 Western Conference Finals. In that game, Tim Duncan (who was already the Spurs superstar) played 20 minutes at Portland in a game in which he ended up with 5 fouls.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...blazers_game3/

    Don't tell me that Stoudemire now is a bigger star than Duncan was in 1999. Duncan was First Team All-NBA that season, First Team All-Defense, and 3rd in the MVP voting.

    In any event, it's good to know that you're on record as supporting the star system and believing that officials should look the other way when superstars commit fouls.

    Yet it did happen in Spurs Suns Game 3. If you want to influence the outcome of a game as a ref, the easiest way to do it is to get the other team's best player in foul trouble so he's relegated to the bench.
    Unless, of course, you call two early fouls because said player actually commits two early fouls. Here's what I don't get about this whole argument -- the two calls that Donaghy put on Stoudemire early were both clearly fouls. There would have been screams of conspiracy had he chosen NOT to make those calls -- to say nothing of the fact that either of his comrades may have chosen to make those calls anyway. The calls that got Stoudemire in trouble in Game 3 weren't calls that were made by Donaghy.

    I think it goes without say that as a ref if you are trying to manipulate a game, you can't do it as effectively on your own. The easiest way to do it is to setup a kickback with fellow refs doing the game (as ESPN is reporting, other refs have been reported to be involved as well). Why would the mob pay off one ref only when they know they are 3 refs total and paying off one ref doesn't insure you of much of advantage unless the other refs are in play as well? They are only buying a marginal advantage with one ref on the books.
    In the first place, you have no evidence whatsoever that bad calls by Willard and Rush were anything other than incompetence. At this point, there's no proof that Donaghy or anyone else was giving money to any other officials. In fact, the evidence to this point makes it seem pretty evident that even Donaghy wasn't getting paid by the mob -- he was fixing games to protect himself and his family, but was making money only by placing bets on those games.

    BTW, that Donaghy call on Ginobili was not only the worst, but most bizarre of the playoffs. Not only is he at midcourt, but he calls it a solid 3-4 seconds after the play is occurred. If any call screams of foul play, that would be the one.
    I don't disagree with that.

    Acting like it's only Suns whiners who think there's some fire here is crazy. These guys at Fox Sports, Bill Simmons, etc aren't Suns fans. They just hate that a series was decided by factors other than on court play (dirty cheap shot by Horry, suspensions benefitting the perpetrating team, ref paid off by the mob, etc).

    If something like what happened to the Suns happened to the Spurs, you wouldnt hear the end of it in SA for the next 50 yrs. They were completely raped by Stern, Stu Jackson, a cheapshot, and possibly now a conspiracy involving the mob. It's pretty unbelievable.
    This is still the argument I don't understand -- how exactly were the Suns raped by Stern and Stu Jackson when those guys did nothing other than apply a rule in precisely the same way that it's always been applied? There was an altercation. Two Suns players left the bench area -- clearly left the bench area. The rule provides that if players leave the bench area during an altercation, they must be (not can be, not possibly) suspended for at least one game starting with the next game that team plays. It's been noted here forever, but had Stern chosen not to suspend Stoudemire and Diaw, he would have been making a first-time exception. There was no justification for that exception (other than the sense of some fans that the interests of the game are better served by making such exceptions in that single cir stance), particularly because just the night before, a very similar play occurred in Oakland when Derek Fisher got decked by Baron Davis. Somehow the Jazz players managed to stay on their bench during that altercation. Giving Stoudemire and Diaw a free pass would have, in some ways, been punishing the Jazz for sitting around and doing nothing during their situation. Besides, all of the other Suns were able to maintain their poise and stay on the bench. I don't get wanting to bail out the two fools who couldn't do that. They broke the rule, a single consequence has always applied to just that sort of breach, and the league imposed that consequence. Where's the "rape" in that? Oh, yeah -- I forgot that entertainment is more important than consistent application of a hard-and-fast rule.

    The Donaghy thing is something else entirely. It's intellectually dishonest to lump that together with the consequences arising from the foolishness of Stoudemire and Diaw and to draw some broader picture.

  8. #133
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    On KENS TV Sports news they reported that not only was Donaghy cooperating with the Feds and implicating more Refs, but also players as well.
    And ESPN said basically the same thing.
    In all the arguing about Game 3, this point has been overlooked.

    If this scandal involves a number of referees and also players, you can start making plans to shut down the NBA, because it is through.

  9. #134
    9mm nkdlunch's Avatar
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    he probably did fix it. So what? even if we give back game 3 to Suns. Spurs still won the series because they were the better team

  10. #135
    Veteran Slinkyman's Avatar
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    How often do you see an NBA playoff game where a team's superstar is in such bad foul trouble that he can only play in 21 minutes of a 48 minute game? Name me one game in the last 20 yrs of the NBA playoffs where this happened. Just one.
    WCF game 3, tim duncan only played 26 minutes against the jazz.

  11. #136
    Believe. UV Ray's Avatar
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    The only bug is that you can see the poor bas s as "last responder" in a thread on the front page. Otherwise, no trace remains. Couldn't have happened to a bigger head.
    May your father acquire an STD from John Amaechi.

  12. #137
    Believe. da_suns_fan__'s Avatar
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    I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.

  13. #138
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.
    Because Tim Donaghy made Nash's nose bleed for 30 minutes, made Stoudemire leave the bench, and made the Suns get ass rammed in the clincher too?

  14. #139
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    Phx -Spurs
    Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
    Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
    Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
    Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
    Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
    Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
    Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
    Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.

  15. #140
    Believe. da_suns_fan__'s Avatar
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    Phoneix radio is playing the clip of the "late call".

    Suns were up by nine (despite the two early fouls called on Stoudemire both called by Donaghey) and starting to blow the game open.....

    You should hear the national announcers react to the call. They're in shock.

  16. #141
    Copy and paste this cornbread's Avatar
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    I think this scandal proves the Suns were the best team.
    And they'll finally prove it next season!

  17. #142
    Believe. Shred's Avatar
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    Because Tim Donaghy made Nash's nose bleed for 30 minutes, made Stoudemire leave the bench, and made the Suns get ass rammed in the clincher too?
    Damn it, you're straying from the official party line--the suspensions had nothing to do with the Spurs' win, remember!!!

  18. #143
    Believe. da_suns_fan__'s Avatar
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    Damn it, you're straying from the official party line--the suspensions had nothing to do with the Spurs' win, remember!!!



  19. #144
    U know its da truth
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    Why don't you buddies go get a room already? You've been circle jerking for the last couple of days anyway.

  20. #145
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    YOu know what? I will admit it. This scandals proves it. I've know this for a while but its so true now.

    That Sun fans, coach and players are nothing but whiny up the ass little es.

    The sun fans keep making videos of sun players having calls go against them. But a Spur fan can do the same thing with with our team and make it look like the game is being called in favor of the Suns. I can't believe that its been months and the Sun fans are still grasping for straws here.

  21. #146
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    Just one? Okay -- here's one -- Game 3 of the 1999 Western Conference Finals. In that game, Tim Duncan (who was already the Spurs superstar) played 20 minutes at Portland in a game in which he ended up with 5 fouls.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...blazers_game3/

    Don't tell me that Stoudemire now is a bigger star than Duncan was in 1999. Duncan was First Team All-NBA that season, First Team All-Defense, and 3rd in the MVP voting.

    In any event, it's good to know that you're on record as supporting the star system and believing that officials should look the other way when superstars commit fouls.



    Unless, of course, you call two early fouls because said player actually commits two early fouls. Here's what I don't get about this whole argument -- the two calls that Donaghy put on Stoudemire early were both clearly fouls. There would have been screams of conspiracy had he chosen NOT to make those calls -- to say nothing of the fact that either of his comrades may have chosen to make those calls anyway. The calls that got Stoudemire in trouble in Game 3 weren't calls that were made by Donaghy.



    In the first place, you have no evidence whatsoever that bad calls by Willard and Rush were anything other than incompetence. At this point, there's no proof that Donaghy or anyone else was giving money to any other officials. In fact, the evidence to this point makes it seem pretty evident that even Donaghy wasn't getting paid by the mob -- he was fixing games to protect himself and his family, but was making money only by placing bets on those games.



    I don't disagree with that.



    This is still the argument I don't understand -- how exactly were the Suns raped by Stern and Stu Jackson when those guys did nothing other than apply a rule in precisely the same way that it's always been applied? There was an altercation. Two Suns players left the bench area -- clearly left the bench area. The rule provides that if players leave the bench area during an altercation, they must be (not can be, not possibly) suspended for at least one game starting with the next game that team plays. It's been noted here forever, but had Stern chosen not to suspend Stoudemire and Diaw, he would have been making a first-time exception. There was no justification for that exception (other than the sense of some fans that the interests of the game are better served by making such exceptions in that single cir stance), particularly because just the night before, a very similar play occurred in Oakland when Derek Fisher got decked by Baron Davis. Somehow the Jazz players managed to stay on their bench during that altercation. Giving Stoudemire and Diaw a free pass would have, in some ways, been punishing the Jazz for sitting around and doing nothing during their situation. Besides, all of the other Suns were able to maintain their poise and stay on the bench. I don't get wanting to bail out the two fools who couldn't do that. They broke the rule, a single consequence has always applied to just that sort of breach, and the league imposed that consequence. Where's the "rape" in that? Oh, yeah -- I forgot that entertainment is more important than consistent application of a hard-and-fast rule.

    The Donaghy thing is something else entirely. It's intellectually dishonest to lump that together with the consequences arising from the foolishness of Stoudemire and Diaw and to draw some broader picture.

    Great post.

  22. #147
    Ohhhh MommmMA !! LilMissSPURfect's Avatar
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    here i thought, with all the time passing....they'd get over it...seems suns fans think they woulda been crowned champs of the second round....and they would dismantle cleveland and utah as easily as we did....


    stop the madness suns ans suns fans and come back next season with a new set of excuses....

  23. #148
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    Phx -Spurs
    Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
    Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
    Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
    Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
    Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
    Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
    Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
    Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.
    No response from suns fans ? How curious !

    I can't believe some of them are summing up the series to one or two hypothetical bad calls on one game. It was only game 3.
    Besides suns coaches and players admitted chemistry issues after the series.

  24. #149
    Darkseid Is. Mister Sinister's Avatar
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    ^ Yeah, because Suns fans can't understand a foul discrepancy in their favor. It'd hurt their brains.

  25. #150
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    Phx -Spurs
    Game 1 Suns fouls 23 Spurs 27
    Game 2 Suns fouls 14 Spurs 18
    Game 3 Suns fouls 24 Spurs 22
    Game 4 Suns fouls 16 Spurs 26
    Game 5 Suns fouls 19 Spurs 23
    Game 6 Suns fouls 22 Spurs 21
    Total Fouls Suns 118 Spurs 141
    Almost 20% more fouls were called on the Spurs than the Suns and the Suns are a jump shooting team. Yes, there probably was a fix, except the Suns where so incompetent they couldn't even win with the fix in their favor.
    It's cause the S0ns don't play defense. Every team the Spurs played in the playoffs this year had better defense than the S0ns. Duncan even admitted the Nuggets were a much tougher team than Phoenix. If Ginobili hadn't played so bad in Games 2 and 4 it would have been an easy sweep or, at most, a five game series. The series wasn't even close to begin with...but then again how can you expect a close series when the Spurs have made a habit of beating the S0ns(15-6 against Nash and the S0ns over the past three years).

    It's pretty embarrassing that the S0ns needed Donaghy's help to put away the Lakers this year...Though this comes as no surprise since the S0ns have never been a championship calibre team. They fall into the second tier of the Western Conference. They can beat one-man teams like the Lakers but seem to crumble when faced with superior opposition like the Spurs. , even the Jazz would have put them away in 6 games(Jazz were 3-1 vs the S0ns this year).

    The S0ns fans will continue to blame the refs and suspensions when the real problem lies in their gimmick offense, their lack of defense, and that joke of coach Mike D'Antoni.

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