Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[SRJ]

Is Aj As Overrated As Scola?

Now that's funny!

, we can retire Scola's jersey next!

[whottt]

I guess if you have to manufacture a crap argument to contend with a substantial body of evidence, go ahead. We can't verify anything you say, and I suppose that's what you rely on.

LMAO...

What you actually mean is you are going by stats and since the stats don't differentiate between layups and actual shots, you are inclined to believe he could shoot. Since you obviously never saw him play if you think he coud shoot. Either that, or you have Alzheimers.


There are like 2 people in the world that claim AJ could shoot...

You
And his mother.

Notice I didn't include AJ on that list...because even he doesn't make that claim. In fact he'll be the first one to say he couldn't shoot.

Vaughn has a better shot

He actually does...




Someday, when you learn enough of basketball, particularly playoff basketball, to understand when and why teams will double team...then you can get back to me....and tell me what a great shooter AJ was.


And then you can explain why he only made 1 3 pointer in his entire playoff career...that's one less than Nazr Mohammed by the way.


That's 2 less than Tony Parker in his first playoff game as a 19 year old rookie.



I know, I know...AJ was such a great shooter, teams never doubled off of him...he was never open.

[whottt]

AJ has high FG% becuase he dind't shoot, not just that he couldn't, he wouldn't...not even when he was being dared to do so.

That's a real cast iron in the fourth quarters of playoff games.

[picnroll]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.

[SenorSpur]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.

Further proof that Spurs management, at that time, wasted a large part of Robinson's HOF career by not surrounding him better talent.

[timvp]

Good to see the AJ haters in full throat. AJ has been shaking off haters since high school. It wouldn't be right if no one was bashing him. Props

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.

It's laughable when people try to say someone else (for example Mario Elie) was more of an emotional leader for the Spurs during the 1999 season. AJ was far and away the emotional leader. Moreso than Elie. Moreso than Pop. Moreso than anyone you want to name on the Spurs.

During the lockout, AJ was the one who got all the players together and had them working practicing. When the Spurs started off slowly, Pop threw away his offense and let AJ install a new offense. During the rest of the season, AJ was the one who kept everyone in line. During the playoffs, he was the one who never let the Spurs stop believing that some small quiet town in the middle of nowhere could be the home of NBA champions.

I oftentimes say AJ invented Spurs Basketball and I still hold that as true. Spurs fans take for granted how everyone in the Spurs organization only cares about winning championships. That environment didn't create itself.

He also helped Pop become the coach he is today. In fact, AJ was more of the coach of the 1999 team than Pop was. It was his offense the Spurs ran. When scouting other teams, AJ would often get the last call on what defense the Spurs would run.

As far as his number retirement goes, he more than deserves it. As a fan, all I care about is championships. I don't care if you lead the league in assists or have commercials or win the MVP. The only thing I hope for as a fan is a championship. And AJ was a huge, huge part of the first championship.

Without AJ, the Spurs don't win the 1999 championship. A more talented point guard wouldn't have been enough. As Spurs fans, we should be able to tell by now that championships aren't won with talent alone. You need the drive, the wisdom, the determination and the belief. AJ had that in abundance.

I remain thankful today for all AJ has done for the team I root for. He helped carry this franchise from annual pretender to annual contender. Other Spurs fans might dislike AJ or think that his jersey shouldn't have been retired, that's find and it's your right as a fan. But just know that every time you celebrate a championship, you are celebrating the winning culture that AJ had a huge part in founding.

Thank you, AJ. You helped us all Believe.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't get all the Avery hate

The man was a decent point guard who busted his ass for the Spurs organization for years. Without him, you might as well kiss the 99 le goodbye because although Avery wasn't great, no team can win the championship with Steve Kerr or a young scrub Antonio Daniels running the show.

[SRJ]

LMAO...

What you actually mean is you are going by stats and since the stats don't differentiate between layups and actual shots, you are incline to believe he could shoot.

I watched the great majority of Spurs games during Avery's tenure. And I don't claim that Avery was a good shooter, but he was a competent one. He was reliable from his spots when open, and that's all you can ask from a guy who isn't the first or second option on the team.

Had Avery been a good shooter getting the same looks he got, he'd have been a 50-51% shooter, not 48%.

You make it sound like he hit 10 jumpshots a year, which wasn't the case. But then, you get all unglued and irrational when it comes to talking about players you like or don't like, so I'm not surprised that you're revising history.

There are like 2 people in the world that claim AJ could shoot...

You
And his mother.

Notice I didn't include AJ on that list...because even he doesn't make that claim. In fact he'll be the first one to say he couldn't shoot.

He wasn't a good shooter, but he was competent. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have played in over 1000 games. , he wouldn't have played in 100 games.

Someday, when you learn enough of basketball, particularly playoff basketball, to understand when and why teams will double team...then you can get back to me....and tell me what a great shooter AJ was.

Oh, the old "you don't know basketball" card. Damn, I'm frightened.

And then you can explain why he only made 1 3 pointer in his entire playoff career...that's one less than Nazr Mohammed by the way.

That's 2 less than Tony Parker in his first playoff game as a 19 year old rookie.

Avery wasn't a three-point shooter and no one was counting on him for that. You calling out AJ for not making threes is like calling out Tony Parker for not blocking shots.

I know, I know...AJ was such a great shooter, teams never doubled off of him...he was never open.

That is a complete strawman argument. I never said that.

Anyway, I look forward to your next defense of David Robinson. Those I usually agree with, even if you do resort to whott tactics in the process.

[bigfan]

Hate to admit it but mavs>spurs is right, even if his signature should be spurs>mavs. Avery was a tough point guard that exhibited a good deal of leadership over the years, esp. the year of the first le. I like his number being retired due to the role he played on the team for many, many years. That said, TD, Ginobili and Parker are for sure and Bowen and Horry are strong maybes. We're gonna run out of numbers! Is Mitc s number retired by the way?

[SRJ]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.

Further proof that Spurs management, at that time, wasted a large part of Robinson's HOF career by not surrounding him better talent.

So, you two are saying that it's easy to find players like Stockton, Kidd, or Nash? A great point guard is hard to find. , we had a better PG than Avery from 1990 to 1992, but he left in free agency.

[whottt]

Good to see the AJ haters in full throat. AJ has been shaking off haters since high school. It wouldn't be right if no one was bashing him. Props

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.

It's laughable when people try to say someone else (for example Mario Elie) was more of an emotional leader for the Spurs during the 1999 season. AJ was far and away the emotional leader. Moreso than Elie. Moreso than Pop. Moreso than anyone you want to name on the Spurs.

During the lockout, AJ was the one who got all the players together and had them working practicing. When the Spurs started off slowly, Pop threw away his offense and let AJ install a new offense. During the rest of the season, AJ was the one who kept everyone in line. During the playoffs, he was the one who never let the Spurs stop believing that some small quiet town in the middle of nowhere could be the home of NBA champions.

I oftentimes say AJ invented Spurs Basketball and I still hold that as true. Spurs fans take for granted how everyone in the Spurs organization only cares about winning championships. That environment didn't create itself.

He also helped Pop become the coach he is today. In fact, AJ was more of the coach of the 1999 team than Pop was. It was his offense the Spurs ran. When scouting other teams, AJ would often get the last call on what defense the Spurs would run.

As far as his number retirement goes, he more than deserves it. As a fan, all I care about is championships. I don't care if you lead the league in assists or have commercials or win the MVP. The only thing I hope for as a fan is a championship. And AJ was a huge, huge part of the first championship.

Without AJ, the Spurs don't win the 1999 championship. A more talented point guard wouldn't have been enough. As Spurs fans, we should be able to tell by now that championships aren't won with talent alone. You need the drive, the wisdom, the determination and the belief. AJ had that in abundance.

I remain thankful today for all AJ has done for the team I root for. He helped carry this franchise from annual pretender to annual contender. Other Spurs fans might dislike AJ or think that his jersey shouldn't have been retired, that's find and it's your right as a fan. But just know that every time you celebrate a championship, you are celebrating the winning culture that AJ had a huge part in founding.

Thank you, AJ. You helped us all Believe.

SRJ...


You notice even timvp doesn't claim he could shoot.



Textbook AJ defense honed over years...






It however, completely igrnores, under-rates, and alters Mario Elie's contributions to that team.

AJ was here for many a year, before Mario, and he was here after Mario...and Mario was the reason that team was unlike any Spurs team that came before.


Watching Mario hit confidence building and hope brining daggers was like getting to scratch an itch you have had your entire life and never been able to scratch before.


Mario Elie was the guy who taught the Spurs how to win Championship...not Avery Johnson.


Prior to Mario Elie, AJ's Spurs teams ended their seasons a whole lot like his Mavs teams. Ditto, after Mario.



Mario = winner


Don't worry Mario...some of us know, and we will never forget




By the way timvp props....


Throwing Mario Elie under the bus to jock AJ is a new low



What, the Pope wasn't available?

[SRJ]

Is Mitc s number retired by the way?

No.

#13 James Silas
#44 George Gervin
#00 Johnny Moore
#50 David Robinson
#32 Sean Elliott

are the current retirees.

[SRJ]

SRJ...


You notice even timvp doesn't claim he could shoot.

Dammit timvp! You were supposed to say AJ was a competent shooter so I could look good in front of whott!

[mavs>spurs2]

Elie should definately get his jersey retired too IMO

Good defender, mentally tough, and a great team leader

But what to I know im just a lowly mav fan

[SRJ]

Elie should definately get his jersey retired too IMO

Good defender, mentally tough, and a great team leader

But what to I know im just a lowly mav fan

Mario Elie was much more a Rocket than a Spur.

[picnroll]

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.
[/b].

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?

[Hemotivo]

Mario Elie was much more a Rocket than a Spur.

yep

[Hemotivo]

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?

I agree

[whottt]

Elie called out the entire freaking team about 15 games into the season...he basically called them a bunch of pussies...he was on David Robinson and Duncan's ass...he said it in the media and there was absolute pandemonium in SA and surrounding areas over his actions...

You can pinpoint that callout virtually to the day the Spurs turned that season and their franchise around, and it's something Pop has patented and uses about once per season to this day.


Mario Elie did that...but more importantly, any time the Spurs started doubt, he was there with a backbreaking dagger against the other team...it would almost make you cry.

I don't think Mario shot worth a flip that season PCT wise, but every freaking shot he made was a dagger.


As a long time Spurs fan...I knew the feelings of regular season optimism and I knew that sinking, oh here we go again feeling of the playoffs...the point at which their confidence and season, would begin to unravel with the lionshare of the blame undeservedly going on David Robinson...and it was usually a David Robinson being literally piled on by entire teams while his worthless sack of teamates failed to do anything except stand around...


The point..at which the teams said stop David Robinson and we beat this team...and sure enough, the shots would stop falling.


It was like clockwork....there is no mystery to it.



That stopped, when Mario Elie came to this team, that was when "oh here it comes again" was replaced by " ing yeah" and a Mario Elie shimmy and you to the other team.


It is inconcievable how anyone can give AJ that credit...when it was so clearly Mario Elie.


And if you doubt this...go watch David Robinson's retirement ceremony and the way he almost breaks into tears when he sees Elie there....Drob knows the guy who turned it around for him...


It is the greatest crime in all of Spursdom to ignore what Mario Elie did for this team, the change in mindset he brought, the mental toughness and killer instinct he instilled in this team, that remains to this day....he showed them how it was done, and they've never deviated very far from what he showed them....they know when they start playing like Mario taught them how to play, that a championship is within reach.


Mario was bossy and demanding like AJ...the difference is...Mario would ing back it up on the court.


AJ wanted to command respect...but basically he just annoyed the out of everyone because he didn't do when it mattered...


Mario Elie was the guy that commanded respect when he did it...because of what he did on the court after he did it.

[sandman]

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

Not understanding this point. The Spurs waited three long years for the next championship and only had a few players left from the '99 team on the '03 team. While we can point to many, many reasons why the '03, '05 and '07 championships are inter-related to one another, the '99 team tends to stand alone in my mind.

Now, if you are saying that the '99 championship instilled a championship mentality in the franchise, then I can see your point. But Avery had little or no influence on the last three championships, other than to serve the part of the lovable villian.

My issue with the jersey retirement is that it is being based completely on intangibles and a liberally positive posterity mindset. I personally think that we are overvaluing the Game 5 shot. Heck, we have already proven that Steve Kerr, Mario Elie and even SJax hit some great playoff shots for us, but for some reason we deem AJ's contributions in that one championship run as more valuable because his overall tenure in SA was longer than those other players.

Let's just call this for what it is: a popularity contest. He was a classic underdog, a great sound bite with a thick accent, and lucky to play with two of the Top 10 big men to ever play the game.

AJ never carried the team. AJ never willed the team to win. AJ was never the go-to guy for this team. What he brought to the table was a player-coach mentality encased in journeyman skills.

[timvp]

IMO if this is true, then it would be an injustice for Bruce Bowen to not get his number retired as well.

Of course Bowen will get his jersey retired. If there was any question about that, Bowen erased the doubt with his performance against LeBron.

I don't know why so many Spurs in this thread have the take of: "if AJ gets his jersey retired, everyone should. Even Bruce Bowen."

That's a pretty funny take considering that Bowen is the best small forward in franchise history. Even taking away the three championships, he might have had enough to get his jersey retired. The last three years he has been second in the DPOY voting. He has been first team all-defense team countless times.

He has a full resume and is a no-brainer to have his jersey retired. Bowen is closer to a Hall of Famer than he is to not having his jersey retired by the Spurs.

The one player that I was certain would have his jersey retired by the Spurs was Alvin Robertson. He was a perennial all-star and all-NBA Defensive team member.

Robertson was a good player but no where close to jersey retirement level. He had four good seasons with the Spurs. Those four years, the Spurs won 35, 28, 31 and 21 games. Not only was he a loser on the court, he has proven many times to be a loser off the court.

I am planning to boycott the ceremony as well. However I may end up staying only because there are some train wrecks you can't help but watch.

But ugh to think of his jersey in the rafters with our beautiful Championship banners. Ugh!!!!!!!!!!

Without AJ, the only thing hanging in the rafters would be division championship banners.

When they retired 00, that opened the floodgate for a lot of marginal players to have their numbers retired.

That is actually a good point. If you are going to retire 00, you have to retire 6.

If the Spurs only retired Hall of Famers and right now there was only 44 and 50 in the rafters, I'd agree 6 doesn't belong with those two. But if you have 00, 17 and 32 up there, you need 6.

AJ was outspoken and took advantage of DRob's personality to create his "L'il General" persona, but in all reality the catalyst of the '99 team was Elie. DRob and TD brought the talent, Mario brought the heart.

Laughable.

The difference between AJ and Mario is AJ kept his outbursts behind the scenes. Mario went in front of cameras to get a sound bite. AJ was much more of a leader than Mario ... even Mario has admitted that.

AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to have

That shot was nice but that shot had very little to do with his jersey being retired. That was a nice way to end the first championship, however AJ meant more to this franchise than a single shot.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much

I know you like to bash AJ out of one side of your mouth and then praise Shane Heal and Tim Derk out of the other side of your mouth, but this is a laughable take. Ask anyone involved with the Spurs who the hardest working player in franchise history was and they'll tell you AJ.


Oh and to all those who try to use his Mav ties against him ... that's pretty lame. If David Robinson wanted to go into coaching after his playing days and took a job with a rival team, would we hold that againt him? I hope not. Same with Silas, Moore, Gervin or whoever else.

[timvp]

Mario = winner


Don't worry Mario...some of us know, and we will never forget




By the way timvp props....


Throwing Mario Elie under the bus to jock AJ is a new low



What, the Pope wasn't available?

Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.

Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets.

[whottt]

Oh and to all those who try to use his Mav ties against him ... that's pretty lame. If David Robinson wanted to go into coaching after his playing days and took a job with a rival team, would we hold that againt him? I hope not. Same with Silas, Moore, Gervin or whoever else.

This just in...David Robison is approximately 1billion trillion times the player and Spurs Avery Johnson was...I know it hurts you to hear that...but it's a fact nontheless.

[sandman]

Elie called out the entire freaking team about 15 games into the season...he basically called them a bunch of pussies...he was on David Robinson and Duncan's ass...he said it in the media and there was absolute pandemonium in SA and surrounding areas over his actions...

You can pinpoint that callout virtually to the day the Spurs turned that season and their franchise around, and it's something Pop has patented and uses about once per season to this day.


Mario Elie did that...but more importantly, any time the Spurs started doubt, he was there with a backbreaking dagger against the other team...it would almost make you cry.

I don't think Mario shot worth a flip that season PCT wise, but every freaking shot he made was a dagger.


As a long time Spurs fan...I knew the feelings of regular season optimism and I knew that sinking, oh here we go again feeling of the playoffs...the point at which their confidence and season, would begin to unravel with the lionshare of the blame undeservedly going on David Robinson...and it was usually a David Robinson being literally piled on by entire teams while his worthless sack of teamates failed to do anything except stand around...



That stopped, when Mario Elie came to this team, that was when "oh here it comes again" was replaced by " ing yeah" and Mario Elie shimmy and you to the other team.


It is inconcievable how anyone can give AJ that credit...when it was so clearly Mario Elie.


And if you doubt this...go watch David Robinson's retirement ceremony and the way he almost breaks into tears when he sees Elie there....Drob knows the guy who turned it around for him...


It is the greatest crime in all of Spursdom to ignore what Mario Elie did for this team, the change in mindset he brought, the mental toughness and killer instinct he instilled in this team, that remains to this day....he showed them how it was done, and they've never deviated very far from what he showed them....they know when they start playing like Mario taught them how to play, that a championship is within reach.


Mario was bossy and demanding like AJ...the difference is...Mario would ing back it up on the court.


AJ wanted to command respect...but basically he just annoyed the out of everyone because he didn't do when it mattered...


Mario Elie was the guy that commanded respect when he did it...because of what he did on the court after he did it.

Spurs don't win that championship without Mario on the team. Same can't be said of AJ. Not that I hated AJ as a player, but even as a Spur his contribution was more as an assistant coach on the floor than a clutch and talented player.

Revisionsist history at work...

[timvp]

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?

Manu was a borderline scrub during the 2003 playoffs. He had one good series (Lakers) and three horrible series. He also clashed with Pop.

To say Manu was the reason the Spurs won the 2003 championship is crazy. He was awesome in 2005 and very good in 2007, but in 2003 he was a barely capable role player.

Bull crap. Tim Duncan is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that.

Now that would have made a lot more sense.