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  1. #126
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    At the expense of the security of our military forces in Northern Iraq.

    Good call Pelosi.

    Some people call that representing your District.. the people you are accountable to and are responsible for your being in Congress in the first place.

  2. #127
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I just got off the phone with the office of my representative Earl Blumenaurers. I also called Peter DeFazio's office. Both offices told me the representatives were reevaluation their position of co-sponsoring the bill. I tried calling Nancy Pelosi's office too, but apparently the phones have been busy. Or at least that's what they say...

    They couldn't tell me much. I pointed out things like the timeline and supply lines and my disappointment with them as a veteran.

    DC Operator: (202) 224-3121

    H. RES. 106 in PDF format

    H Res 106 query box

    Supposable, I'll get an email explaining the issue.

  3. #128
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    So are you telling me that the only reason Turkey is ammassing for a mini invasion is because of Pelosi's resolution?
    No. But, a large part of the reason they haven't already invaded the Kurdish North is because of our alliance. If the U. S. Congress starts condeming them for stuff that happened 95 years ago, it's gonna piss some people off. I do believe the recent Turkish action to give the green light to an invasion is the result of the Pelosi's introduction of the Armenian resolution. The Turkish vote happened after the Pelosi resolution was raised.

    kThen you want me to believe that the Turks aren't bright enough to know that this resolution, if passed, is meaningless.
    It's never meaningless when the United States of America condemns a military ally during a war.

    So no I don't think it is going to have catastrophic consequences rather Turkey's incursion would.
    So, you don't think Turkey responding to the introduction of the Armenian Genocide resolution by passing a resolution of their own, that gives a green light to the Turkish military to invade Northern Iraq, is a possibly catastrophic development in our position in Iraq?

    Okay.

    Who care why she did it Yoni? You seem to be the only one who cares..
    Well, if I were, we wouldn't be discussing it now, would we?

    Let's assume it is a ploitical stunt. Can we agree that the GOP Congress in recent memeory has meaningless resolutons that are pure political theatre?
    I can't think of one that had such a potential for catastrophe and that interfered with our foreign relations at a critical time. No.

    But, I'm guessing you think it's fine she sat down with Bashar Assad as well.

  4. #129
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Of course, then there's this:

    U.S. Military Looking at Alternatives in Case Turkey cuts Access

    Another unintended consequence to Pelosi's idiotic resolution?

    Turkey has threatened such action after congressional moves to declare that the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in World War I was "genocide."

  5. #130
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Some people call that representing your District.. the people you are accountable to and are responsible for your being in Congress in the first place.
    I wonder if there are more Armenian or military families in Pelosi's District.

  6. #131
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    By the same token, what was the purpose of Bush's decision to not send enough troops to Iraq to secure the borders with any country including Iran, Syria and Turkey?

    How many US troops have died because of that seditious action?

  7. #132
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    So are you telling me that the only reason Turkey is ammassing for a mini invasion is because of Pelosi's resolution? Then you want me to believe that the Turks aren't bright enough to know that this resolution, if passed, is meaningless. So no I don't think it is going to have catastrophic consequences rather Turkey's incursion would. Who care why she did it Yoni? You seem to be the only one who cares.. Let's assume it is a ploitical stunt. Can we agree that the GOP Congress in recent memeory has passed meaningless resolutons that were pure political theatre?
    I would note that the congress in 2000, under the GOP also considered the measure. (source: specialist/law professor interviewed on NPR)

    It most recently came up once or twice a decade for the last 30 years.

  8. #133
    TRU 'cross mah stomach LaMarcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Once again, you're not forwarding an alterior motive that would have driven Speaker Pelosi to introduce what she most certainly knew would be a resolution that would cause tension in the region.

    She's either oblivious to geopolitical nuances or she was attempting to create that tension.

    Or, give me an third option.

    Okay so let me get this straight:
    This was the first time to ever push this sort of thing, and it was all done by the hands of Speaker Pelosi? My bad for thinking there was some form of voting process involved.


    I didn't realize that was the case. I stand corrected, everyone else that doesn't vote neocon is totally 100% out to get you! How could I have not noticed this!?


    Essentially your argument is that Turkish people are too stupid and barbaric to understand a resolution is being passed in the U.S. for domestic reasons that has no real effect on them as Turkish citizens, nor does it even condemn the ruling party of their state. Which is a viable argument, but again education is the answer...You can't tell me a moderately educated Turk gives a ing about what the U.S. failed to pass. Meanwhile its blatantly obvious the Turkish politicians are just moving their ambassader around to please the Marriott segment of their population, people who are the Turkish equivalent of YOU. Yes its bad timing, but you're a ing neocon yonivore, you can't tell me you've never just shrugged at somethign thrown at your face and said "Bad timing".


    So what is the motivation for passing it? Best guesses will suffice.

    How stupid of me, I was thinking American's cared about human rights.
    Doh!

    You are all poster children for abstination, when did ya'll get so stupid to begin automatically believing anything that gets in the way of the overall neocon motive must automatically be evil and aggressive and wrong and nonsensical.

    All this is the same old rehashing of the "support our troops" mantra you people used to convince other USA Marriotts to vote neocon in 2004.
    Last edited by LaMarcus Bryant; 10-18-2007 at 05:47 PM.

  9. #134
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Charles Krauthammer devotes his weekly column to the subject in "Pelosi's Armenian gambit."

    I believe the House resolution an act of unbelievable irresponsibility because of its negative impact on the vital support Turkey provides for our effort in Iraq, and Krauthammer characterizes the House resolution similarly, (so much for me being the only person worried about it). He also takes up the interesting question whether Speaker Pelosi intends the resolution to produce its predictable consequences, a question I also raised. Krauthammer declines to answer, preferring instead to formulate "Krauthammer's Razor" as a tool of analysis:

    Is the Armenian resolution her way of unconsciously sabotaging the U.S. war effort, after she had failed to stop it by more direct means? I leave that question to psychiatry. Instead, I fall back on Krauthammer's razor (with apologies to Occam): In explaining any puzzling Washington phenomenon, always choose stupidity over conspiracy, incompetence over cunning. Anything else gives them too much credit.
    I am afraid that "Krauthammer's Razor" will prove to be an even more useful analytic tool than "Bush Derangement Syndrome" (to which Krauthammer added the "Cheney variant" earlier this year), Krauthammer's denomination of the syndrome that accounts for so much political discourse over the past seven years.

    Listening to House Democratic Majority Leader Steny Hoyer on Fox News Sunday this week, I thought that the Democrats must know exactly what they are doing. Brit Hume asked Hoyer why the resolution was being taken up by the House now, when it threatened to do so much damage. Hoyer responded:

    HOYER: OK, Brit. That's a good question. I've been in the Congress 26 years. I've been for this resolution for 25 years. I've talked to the Turkish ambassadors, Turkish government, Turkish parliamentarians, over a quarter of a century.

    Never once in that quarter of a century has anybody in the Turkish government said to me, "OK, this is the right time." In other words, there would be no right time.

    But the fact is our government is absolutely convinced a genocide was committed, not by the Erdogan government or the present Turkish people, but almost 100 years ago, 1950, during the course of the...
    The exchange continued on the question of timing:

    HUME: But why is it a good idea to say it now?

    HOYER: Because if we forget what has happened, if we paper over what has happened, then we are at risk of letting it happen again. As a matter of fact, unfortunately, in Darfur...

    HUME: I mean, do you think it's an urgent issue, something that happened between Turks and Armenians in World War I?

    HOYER: Brit, do I think it's an urgent issue? I think the issue of genocide is a very urgent and present issue. It's happening in Darfur now. It happened in Bosnia not too long ago. And the world sat by and watched.

    Yes, I think it's an urgent issue.

    HUME: Well, but nobody's arguing that it wasn't a mass killing or even a massacre.

    HOYER: No, it was a genocide. And I understand some people are arguing that well, let historians look at it. Historians have looked at it. Nobel writers have looked at it. And there is a conclusion that, in fact, this was a conscious effort to eliminate a race of people.

    HUME: And I don't think anybody in the administration would dispute that that happened.

    However, do you think it's worth making this expression of this at this time, all these years later, at the expense of souring relations with a country who has helped us, is vital in the Mideast and in Iraq in particular?

    HOYER: Well, I think Turkey's help to us is vital. More vital is the United States' help to Turkey, Brit.

    Over the last half a century, the relationship between the United States and Turkey has far more advantage to Turkey than it has the United States. Are we both advantageous to one another? We are.

    Speaker Pelosi and I met with the Turkish ambassador just a few days ago and said to him, "We are friends. We are allies. We believe this is a historical observation. It is not about your government. It's not about the Turkish people. It is about a historical event that happened that we need to remember to preclude its happening again."
    In other words, Hoyer was unable to provide an answer to the question of timing; he simply changed the subject.

    Krauthammer and the utility of Krauthammer's Razor to the contrary notwithstanding, I doubt that stupidity is a sufficient explanation in this case.

  10. #135
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Charles Krauthammer devotes his weekly column to the subject in "Pelosi's Armenian gambit."

    I believe the House resolution an act of unbelievable irresponsibility because of its negative impact on the vital support Turkey provides for our effort in Iraq, and Krauthammer characterizes the House resolution similarly, (so much for me being the only person worried about it). He also takes up the interesting question whether Speaker Pelosi intends the resolution to produce its predictable consequences, a question I also raised. Krauthammer declines to answer, preferring instead to formulate "Krauthammer's Razor" as a tool of analysis:


    I am afraid that "Krauthammer's Razor" will prove to be an even more useful analytic tool than "Bush Derangement Syndrome" (to which Krauthammer added the "Cheney variant" earlier this year), Krauthammer's denomination of the syndrome that accounts for so much political discourse over the past seven years.

    Listening to House Democratic Majority Leader Steny Hoyer on Fox News Sunday this week, I thought that the Democrats must know exactly what they are doing. Brit Hume asked Hoyer why the resolution was being taken up by the House now, when it threatened to do so much damage. Hoyer responded:


    The exchange continued on the question of timing:


    In other words, Hoyer was unable to provide an answer to the question of timing; he simply changed the subject.

    Krauthammer and the utility of Krauthammer's Razor to the contrary notwithstanding, I doubt that stupidity is a sufficient explanation in this case.

    what damage could it cause? You keep repeating that but other than your opinion you have nothing to offer..

  11. #136
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    what damage could it cause? You keep repeating that but other than your opinion you have nothing to offer..
    You don't pay attention. I've discussed two possible consequences, both of which Turkey has already threatened.

    1) Turkey ignores our pleas to not invade Kurdish North Iraq, and;

    (They passed their own resolution giving the military the green light, just this week and in response to Pelosi's resolution)

    2) Turkey disallows coalition access to Turkish installations and territory for logistical support and bases of operation in the war in Iraq.

    (Also something Turkey threatened as a result of the Pelosi resolution.)

    Please try to keep up.

  12. #137
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    You don't pay attention. I've discussed two possible consequences, both of which Turkey has already threatened.

    1) Turkey ignores our pleas to not invade Kurdish North Iraq, and;

    (They passed their own resolution giving the military the green light, just this week and in response to Pelosi's resolution)

    2) Turkey disallows coalition access to Turkish installations and territory for logistical support and bases of operation in the war in Iraq.

    (Also something Turkey threatened as a result of the Pelosi resolution.)

    Please try to keep up.

    Can you find me a any evidence the the truks passed their resolution because of pelosi's? I guess you think the Turkls are to stupid to realize this is meaningless...

  13. #138
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The Turks passed the resolution because their soldiers were being killed by Kurds operating from Iraq and the US and Kurdistan weren't doing anything about it.

    If there is actually any change in Turkey's stance on supply lines, that would likely be a result of the genocide shenanigans.

  14. #139
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Can you find me a any evidence the the truks passed their resolution because of pelosi's? I guess you think the Turkls are to stupid to realize this is meaningless...
    Conflict between Turkey and the US intensifies

    Tensions between Ankara and Washington have also been exacerbated by the resolution passed by the US House Foreign Affairs Committee, which refers to the mass murder of Armenians in 1915 as genocide. This touches on a fundamental pillar of Turkish state policy. In an interview with the newspaper Milliyet, the commander of the Turkish armed forces, General Yasar Büyükanit, warned that “military relations with the US would never be the same” if the resolution were to pass the Senate.

    Ankara has even threatened to close the US airbase at Incirlik if the resolution is approved. A large proportion of American supplies for its war against Iraq pass through this base.
    Turkish government gives green light for military intervention in northern Iraq

    The anti-American tone of this campaign was very evident. Deniz Baykal, the leader of the Kemalist CHP (Republican People’s Party), accused the US of using the PKK to split Turkey. The leader of the fascist MHP (Nationalist Movement Party), Devlet Bahceli, called for a popular referendum over an invasion of northern Iraq.

    The passing of a resolution by the Foreign Affairs Committee of the US House of Representatives, terming the massacre of Armenians by Turkey 92 years ago as “genocide,” only served to further inflame antagonisms. The resolution is next to be subject to a vote by the full House.

    For Turkish nationalists, the massacre of Armenians is a taboo issue. Anyone using the word genocide must reckon on legal persecution resulting in a prison sentence, or even with death threats.

    In order to hinder the passing of the resolution, threats were made in Ankara to close the military base at Incirlik, which serves as a vital supply route for the US occupation of Iraq. US President George W. Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defence Secretary Robert Gates all tried to prevent the acceptance of the Armenia resolution, in order to avoid any escalation of tensions with Ankara.

  15. #140
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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  16. #141
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    nice sources. can you provide anyone that I have heard of?
    One source quoted the commander of the Turkish armed forces, General Yasar Büyükanit. Who did you want to hear it from?

    I don't know anyone on the Turkish Parliament and I can't find any of your pet MSM sources that will even touch the story.

    Here's a story from the Turkish Daily News -- from way back in January -- that predicts what will happen if Pelsosi pushed forward with the resolution:

    Turkish Daily News

    What happens if the new Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi decides to change the “terms of endearment” this year?
    ***
    5 -- 2007 is not an ordinary year in Turkish politics. Therefore, a U.S. “seal of approval” of the Armenian genocide may change the outlook in both the presidential and parliamentary elections. Erdogan's neo-Islamists, for the neo-cons in Washington, are probably still the favored bunch to rule Turkey -- the role model. So, a move from the usual line in April would mean “Washington going against its own policy.” The “g-word” would also mean unnecessary turmoil in Turkey that could hardly go in line with U.S. interests in this part of the world. A lot of trouble for no real gain…

    7 -- Ankara and Washington are already differ fundamentally on the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)/Iraqi Kurdish En y. The “allies” have diverging, not converging, interests as regards to the country Erdoğan says is even more important for Turkey than the European Union -- Iraq. The bureaucracy that keeps a pair of retired U.S. and Turkish generals busy under the guise of “special envoys to coordinate the fight against terrorism (PKK)” has in recent months proved to be “special envoys to delude the Turkish public that the Americans really intend to fight the PKK.” If a U.S. “seal of approval” on the Armenian genocide adds to the Turkish perceptions of U.S. reluctance to fight the PKK, there would probably be a combined effect at a (negative) synergy size.
    ***
    They listed 8 possible consequences. Go read them all.

    By the way, were you aware Turkey recalled its ambassador to the U.S. when the House subcommittee passed the resolution?

  17. #142
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    One source quoted the commander of the Turkish armed forces, General Yasar Büyükanit. Who did you want to hear it from?

    I don't know anyone on the Turkish Parliament and I can't find any of your pet MSM sources that will even touch the story.

    Here's a story from the Turkish Daily News -- from way back in January -- that predicts what will happen if Pelsosi pushed forward with the resolution:

    Turkish Daily News


    They listed 8 possible consequences. Go read them all.

    By the way, were you aware Turkey recalled its ambassador to the U.S. when the House subcommittee passed the resolution?


    Pelosi Makes Political Misstep in Reversal on Armenian Genocide

    By Laura Litvan and Nicholas Johnston

    Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) -- The two meetings House Speaker Nancy Pelosi attended before a vote on a resolution labeling the massacre of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey a genocide foreshadowed the biggest political misstep of her speakership.

    In the hours before a House panel approved the resolution Oct. 10, Pelosi was told in a tense meeting with Turkey's ambassador that the vote would endanger his country's alliance with the U.S. She had a warmer session with an Armenian cleric and representatives of Armenian-Americans, who have a large presence in her home state of California. In both, she made clear she intended to bring the resolution to a full House vote.

    Since then, Pelosi, 67, has been in retreat. Her vow to bring the measure to a vote outraged Turkey, which recalled its ambassador and threatened to cut off the use of its military bases to resupply U.S. troops in Iraq. On Oct. 17, Pelosi said it ``remains to be seen'' whether the vote would occur after more than a dozen lawmakers pulled their names from the measure and some Democrats asked her to drop it.

    ``It's a good resolution but a horrible time to be considering it on the House floor,'' said Representative Mike Ross of Arkansas, one of the Democrats who withdrew his support.

    ``She dug in her heels to find that she didn't have her members with her,'' said Representative Ray LaHood, an Illinois Republican. ``If you get too far out in front of them, it can be embarrassing.''

    Democrats' Agenda

    The turnaround is the first major failure for Pelosi, who has successfully muscled through the agenda she set out when she became leader of the Democratic majority in January. This year, the House has passed a measure calling for a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, a minimum-wage increase, a five-year farm bill and a $35 billion expansion of health coverage for children.

    Until now, her biggest obstacles had been President George W. Bush's veto power -- which he used this month to block the children's health-care measure -- and the inability of Senate Democratic leaders to overcome Republican opposition.

    The controversy also handed Bush and House Republicans an opening to attack Pelosi's foreign-policy credentials. ``Congress has more important work to do than antagonizing a democratic ally in the Muslim world, especially one that's providing vital support for our military every day,'' Bush said Oct. 17.

    Some Democrats say Pelosi couldn't have anticipated the backlash. Yet Representative Jack Murtha of Pennsylvania, one of her closest allies, said he had warned her in February that the resolution could erode U.S. support in the Middle East. ``This is not a way to help us in an area where we need allies,'' Murtha said.

    Moral Obligation

    Pelosi said Oct. 11 that she decided to advance the legislation because the U.S. has a moral obligation to take a stand and declare the World War I-era killings of 1.5 million Armenians genocide.

    ``There's never a good time,'' Pelosi said, adding that the entire Democratic leadership team, and a bipartisan coalition comprising most of the House's 435 members, supported it.

    The reaction was swift. One day after the House Foreign Affairs Committee approved the resolution, 27-21, Turkey withdrew its ambassador for consultations, and Turkish legislators on Oct. 17 authorized the use of military force against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, a step that may further destabilize Iraq and disrupt oil supplies.

    Pelosi said Turkey may be using the resolution to justify taking action in Iraq. ``This is about Turkey's plans,'' she said. ``This isn't about our resolution.''

    `Home-State Politics'

    The legislation, which has been introduced for decades, often originates from California lawmakers, said John Pitney, a political science professor with Claremont McKenna College in Claremont, California. About 232,000 Armenian Americans live in the state, 54 percent of the U.S. total, according to 2006 Census data. ``Home-state politics is a large portion of it,'' Pitney said.

    This year's resolution was co-sponsored by California Democrat Adam Schiff and Pelosi has said she promised him and other supporters that they would get a vote if the measure was approved by committee.

    When it was approved in committee last week, the resolution had 226 co-sponsors, more that the 218 needed to pass. But by yesterday, more than 12 co-sponsors had withdrawn their support.

    This week, Pelosi backed away from her pledge to advance the bill this year, saying it would be up to its sponsors to decide whether it comes up for a vote. Schiff said he would ask her to bring the measure to the floor only if he has enough votes to win.

    Murtha said he is working to persuade Pelosi to drop the matter, and that as many as 60 Democrats would oppose the resolution and it would fail any vote of the full House.

    ``It's impractical at this point to go forward with it,'' Murtha said.

    The dispute has cost Pelosi some credibility, Pitney said. ``This is proving to be a lesson to the leadership to think through the long-term consequences,'' he said. ``There's a great deal of difference between taking positions in the minority and moving legislation in the majority.''

    here's one.. Yoni was right! Wow i think that may be the first time!

  18. #143
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    here's one.. Yoni was right! Wow i think that may be the first time!
    I applaud your honesty.

  19. #144
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    How stupid of me, I was thinking American's cared about human rights.
    Doh!
    Sure we do. Tell me this please. How does condemning the current nation of Turkey that was established in 1923 do anything but harm our relations with them when the autrocities were commited during the decade beforehand?

  20. #145
    TRU 'cross mah stomach LaMarcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Sure we do. Tell me this please. How does condemning the current nation of Turkey that was established in 1923 do anything but harm our relations with them when the autrocities were commited during the decade beforehand?

    It doesn't condemn the current nation of Turkey that is the whole point. Jesus christ you're stupid. And the other things it does have already been said and said again in this thread. For the record I think doing all this now is wrong, but there is a slight meaning behind it you keep ignoring, as if it does not exist.

    But beyond all this I still don't think Turkey will be pushed to denying us logistical support in the war. Unless something else happens.
    Last edited by LaMarcus Bryant; 10-19-2007 at 06:11 PM.

  21. #146
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It doesn't condemn the current nation of Turkey that is the whole point.
    Sure it does. Not in our eyes, but in their eyes it does. Different cultures think differently.
    But beyond all this I still don't think Turkey will be pushed to denying us logistical support in the war. Unless something else happens.
    You ready to hold all those sponsoring the resolution responsible if it does?

  22. #147
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    You ready to hold all those sponsoring the resolution responsible if it does?
    you'd think conservatives would leader the march against genocide.

    my how times have changed. I guess there's good genocide and bad genocide.

  23. #148
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    you'd think conservatives would leader the march against genocide.

    my how times have changed. I guess there's good genocide and bad genocide.
    Did you miss the part where this genocide was before the current form of Turkey? The genocide was before 1923, when Turkey became the nation it is today.

  24. #149
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    you'd think conservatives would leader the march against genocide.

    my how times have changed. I guess there's good genocide and bad genocide.
    You mean like your group of Liberals (Clinton administration)
    stopped the genocide during their eight years. There is
    enough genocide to go around to all politicians.

    I have a question: How can anyone condemn something
    that didn't happen in their lifetime or apologize for
    something that didn't happen in their life time. Maybe
    offer regrets for some incident, but apologize? Not
    possible. It may have been a terrible thing. But you
    nor I have no idea why it happened and only have
    some historians view on it. And a damn politician will
    say anything to anyone to cotton some favor.
    So quit wringing you hands and beating your chest,
    you really aren't impressing anyone, especially me.
    Besides if anyone was alive when this occurred they
    would be well over a hundred years of age. Just
    like slavery in the United States and elsewhere. You
    and I had nothing to do with it. And no one alive
    today suffered the indignity or owned slaves. I have
    nothing to apologize for and no one today is owed
    an apology or compensation.

  25. #150
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Did you miss the part where this genocide was before the current form of Turkey? The genocide was before 1923, when Turkey became the nation it is today.
    I really don't care about it one way or the other. Conservatives are the ones defining selective genocide. You don't find that interesting?

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