Phoenix were unamzing happens

[Armando]

Spursfans seem to forget this was a bitter pill for the Suns and thier fans to swallow. Spurs fans have to understand the frustration. From Nash's broken nose in Game 1 to the noncalls on Nash and Stoudemire who were being hacked by Bowen and Duncan. And on the other end it seems like Stoudemire could not even breath on Duncan without getting a foul. Yes I know Stoudemire is foul prone but the referees essentially made him ineffective in Game 3. The suspensions were the last straw. How will you feel if the situation were reverse and it was the Spurs on the short end of the stick? Is easy to saythe rule was correctly enforced because your team benefited from it. How easily would you defend the rule if it was Duncan? Besides Spursfans should know about bitter endings. 06 Mavs series and the shot with 0.4 seconds left.

[DannyB]

Duncan and Bowen didn't come off the bench because of a possible altercation that might have happened...they stepped onto the court protesting a call, which is stupid and deserving of technicals, IMO.

Actually I think the problem is that the rule is too vague. It says that you cannot leave the bench if an altercation occurs. Well, what is an altercation? It can be anything from two players jawing at each other to punches being thrown. I think the problem that there is too much wiggle room. I understand they want to avoid fights and I agree with that but if you are going to target altercations, you have to define what that is going to mean as far as the players are concerned.

It is a rule and rules have to be enforced but they have to be enforced uniformly and consistently and to do that, sometimes you have to change them.

You & I are staring at each other right in the eye on this one, dude. You said pretty much exactly what I said about the problem of vagueness in the rules. The league has a ton of rules with wording that is crucial to interpretation of the rules ... but those words are either poorly defined or not at all. Biggest problem of all for the NBA in my opinion, and it's been a problem for many years longer than the Donaghy scandal or the gambling crisis.

[DannyB]

Co-sign.

DannyB, you might wanna keep your buttons from getting too easily pressed, though. As you've probably noticed, intentionally getting a rise out of people is practically a way of life here.

True enough. Advice graciously accepted. I'll try to control my anger like a good Jedi in the future. I'm just still so torqued over last year is all ... I'm sure you can appreciate that, even if you don't sympathize, of course.

[anakha]

True enough. Advice graciously accepted. I'll try to control my anger like a good Jedi in the future. I'm just still so torqued over last year is all ... I'm sure you can appreciate that, even if you don't sympathize, of course.

If it's any consolation, if the roles in the Suns-Spurs series were reversed, there would be people here ing about it for years to come.

It's all part of being a fan of one's team. Or fanatic. Whichever one applies.

[DannyB]

Sorry. I just had to vent my own personal opinion about the way the rules change in favor of more "physical" teams (read "fouling" teams) during the playoffs. I think it favors the Spurs in virtually any series. It's not the Spurs fault for taking advantage of the way the game is called ... I just think it's really wrong --and really disappointing-- that the league decides that the rules for 82 games are not good enough for the playoffs. I thought the league was claiming that they were striving for consistency in their officiating above almost all else.

[anakha]

Sorry. I just had to vent my own personal opinion about the way the rules change in favor of more "physical" teams (read "fouling" teams) during the playoffs. I think it favors the Spurs in virtually any series. It's not the Spurs fault for taking advantage of the way the game is called ... I just think it's really wrong --and really disappointing-- that the league decides that the rules for 82 games are not good enough for the playoffs. I thought the league was claiming that they were striving for consistency in their officiating above almost all else.

Agree on the consistency of enforcement. That's what comes from having rules open to interpretation.

As for the difference in the calls between the regular season and the playoffs - I've always been of the opinion that the NBA likes to have a lot of tighter, closely-fought games in in the playoffs. Makes for a more exciting series, you know?

Now, I'm not saying that the NBA officials intentionally allow more physical games in the playoffs, in order to keep scores close and emotions (both the teams' and fans') high. But let's just say that I wouldn't be surprised if that were actually the case.

[DannyB]

Agree on the consistency of enforcement. That's what comes from having rules open to interpretation.

As for the difference in the calls between the regular season and the playoffs - I've always been of the opinion that the NBA likes to have a lot of tighter, closely-fought games in in the playoffs. Makes for a more exciting series, you know?

Now, I'm not saying that the NBA officials intentionally allow more physical games in the playoffs, in order to keep scores close and emotions (both the teams' and fans') high. But let's just say that I wouldn't be surprised if that were actually the case.

It is. They do. And it's yet another symptom of the problem. Good refs who know the rules and call the game right all the time shouldn't be intimidated by the playoffs format, or by the star-status of certain players. If they were quality refs who had confidence in the rule book and their ability to make the right calls the majority of the time, they wouldn't be so insecure as to question their own level of involvement in the outcome of a playoff game. They wouldn't call the game so differently in the playoffs that it resembles a different sport entirely.

Basically, these guys let more go in the playoffs because they're gutless, because they don't want to be the ones ing up the outcome. They don't want to decide the outcome, so they're scared to make any calls at all. ing bull . It's professional basketball. How about the league gets some pro refs for a change ... you know, some refs who have a pair and can call it straight.

[anakha]

It is. They do. And it's yet another symptom of the problem. Good refs who know the rules and call the game right all the time shouldn't be intimidated by the playoffs format, or by the star-status of certain players. If they were quality refs who had confidence in the rule book and their ability to make the right calls the majority of the time, they wouldn't be so insecure as to question their own level of involvement in the outcome of a playoff game. They wouldn't call the game so differently in the playoffs that it resembles a different sport entirely.

Basically, these guys let more go in the playoffs because they're gutless, because they don't want to be the ones ing up the outcome. They don't want to decide the outcome, so they're scared to make any calls at all. ing bull . It's professional basketball. How about the league gets some pro refs for a change ... you know, some refs who have a pair and can call it straight.

It seems the point you're making is that the main culprit is the refs.

The point I was making is that the league, to which the refs are subordinated, may prefer to have playoff games called a certain way. If that is the case, changing the referee corps is a case of correcting the symptom and not the disease.

[DannyB]

It seems the point you're making is that the main culprit is the refs.

The point I was making is that the league, to which the refs are subordinated, may prefer to have playoff games called a certain way. If that is the case, changing the referee corps is a case of correcting the symptom and not the disease.

That is indeed the point I'm making. It is the refs. Honestly, as much as I personally despise the way I think the Spurs are allowed to push the rules (and even outright abuse them at times), I don't blame them directly. I think the Spurs are smart. I think Popovich is smart, and I think he understands all the contradictions, inadequacies, flaws, and grey areas inherent in the NBA's vague-as- rule book.

I think he has studied them like no other coach in the league, always with an eye to defense. And I think he has actually constructed an extremely sophisticated philosophy for his team that absolutely involves pushing the envelope on the rule book. The Spurs are literally a direct assault on the rule book, rather than an assault on any of the individual teams in the league.

In a twisted way, I guess I actually admire Popovich & the Spurs for their compe ive spirit, their willingness to seize any and every subtle advantage that the game offers. But mostly I can't help feeling that the Spurs' approach to the game is a perversion & subversion of the spirit of the game, an underhanded attempt to cheat the game rather than beat the opponent outright. Surely even Spurs fans can admit that they don't have much real talent beyond your "Big 3." It's mostly a lot of aging role players, and the cast changes almost every year.

So, yes. Again, I do blame the refs. Absolutely. I want what any NBA fan wants from the refs: consistency and fairness. Unfortunately, we currently have an official rule book that allows about as much subjective freedom of interpretation as the Bible, and a corps of refs who are inconsistent, incompetent, and dishonest (100% of them, by the admission of the ing commissioner). Yes, it's the refs. the refs. I wanted them all fired after last season ... I wanted them all investigated after the playoffs ... I almost wanted them executed after the scandals ...

[anakha]

That is indeed the point I'm making. It is the refs. Honestly, as much as I personally despise the way I think the Spurs are allowed to push the rules (and even outright abuse them at times), I don't blame them directly. I think the Spurs are smart. I think Popovich is smart, and I think he understands all the contradictions, inadequacies, flaws, and grey areas inherent in the NBA's vague-as- rule book.

I think he has studied them like no other coach in the league, always with an eye to defense. And I think he has actually constructed an extremely sophisticated philosophy for his team that absolutely involves pushing the envelope on the rule book. The Spurs are literally a direct assault on the rule book, rather than an assault on any of the individual teams in the league.

In a twisted way, I guess I actually admire Popovich & the Spurs for their compe ive spirit, their willingness to seize any and every subtle advantage that the game offers. But mostly I can't help feeling that the Spurs' approach to the game is a perversion & subversion of the spirit of the game, an underhanded attempt to cheat the game rather than beat the opponent outright. Surely even Spurs fans can admit that they don't have much real talent beyond your "Big 3." It's mostly a lot of aging role players, and the cast changes almost every year.

So, yes. Again, I do blame the refs. Absolutely. I want what any NBA fan wants from the refs: consistency and fairness. Unfortunately, we currently have an official rule book that allows about as much subjective freedom of interpretation as the Bible, and a corps of refs who are inconsistent, incompetent, and dishonest (100% of them, by the admission of the ing commissioner). Yes, it's the refs. the refs. I wanted them all fired after last season ... I wanted them all investigated after the playoffs ... I almost wanted them executed after the scandals ...

But if the root cause is indeed the league's preference for a certain style of game in the playoffs, what would changing the refs accomplish? Wouldn't any replacement refs be forced to call the games the same way?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In a twisted way, I guess I actually admire Popovich & the Spurs for their compe ive spirit, their willingness to seize any and every subtle advantage that the game offers. But mostly I can't help feeling that the Spurs' approach to the game is a perversion & subversion of the spirit of the game, an underhanded attempt to cheat the game rather than beat the opponent outright. Surely even Spurs fans can admit that they don't have much real talent beyond your "Big 3." It's mostly a lot of aging role players, and the cast changes almost every year.

oh I see, so because you claim to admire Pop and his "dirty ways" we're supposed to accept your crying and whining as fact? You can all you want, but everyone knows the Spurs aren't dirty. The only pathetic s that keep going back and complaining are Suns fans. No surprise there. On top of everything, your star is dirty as well, so what the are you complaining about?

Whats this about "no talent beyond our big 3"? As if the Suns were that much deeper than the Spurs

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This is the sort of Suns fan that gives the rest of their fan base a bad name. Crying !

[samikeyp]

I almost agree with you. Past can't be changed for sure. You're right. Trophies can't be taken away. But the asterisk is ALREADY there ... not retro-actively applied. Too many factors to avoid the asterisk. Crooked ref, rigged games (possibly due to crooked ref ... we don't know for sure yet conclusively), truly bad officiating (I know everyone in SA thinks the series was refereed perfect, but you are in the minority among nationwide observers of the series, not just Suns fans), a horribly botched decision on the suspensions due to an idiotic rule poorly & inconsistently applied - e.g. Bowen/Duncan off the bench too ...

Sorry. The asterisk is there. It's almost as permanent as the branded Barry Bonds home-run ball. The series was tainted for a lot of people, not all of them Suns fans. Whether you disagree or not, that is the general perception and has become as firmly believed as fact as the bull Roswell alien crash.

This is going to be the one point we cannot agree on. That's ok though because if everyone agreed, sports wouldn't be any fun. I agree that some feel that its tainted and that is fine. If the situation were reversed, tons of Spurs fans would feel the same way. My point is that just because feel a specific way, doesn't make it so. To you there is an asterisk on the series, again, that is your prerogative and while I disagree, I am not going to be one of those fools who say "you can't say that!" because you can. Its an opinion thing really, so actually neither of us are "wrong".

[OdenCouchDynasty]

You stole my avatar you . Oh well, you already stole my butt impression on your face, so I guess it's ok.

You better hope you threw me away by now.

[DannyB]

oh I see, so because you claim to admire Pop and his "dirty ways" we're supposed to accept your crying and whining as fact? You can all you want, but everyone knows the Spurs aren't dirty. The only pathetic s that keep going back and complaining are Suns fans. No surprise there. On top of everything, your star is dirty as well, so what the are you complaining about?

Whats this about "no talent beyond our big 3"? As if the Suns were that much deeper than the Spurs

That graphic you've got of Manu is about the gayest thing I've ever seen. He looks like he's making " Me" eyes at Tim Duncan or something.

I don't expect you or anyone on here to accept anything I say as fact. So don't listen to me for the revelation. Believe whatever you want, but all lot of other teams & players & opposing fans HAVE publicly said the Spurs are dirty. You're in denial if you refuse to believe that. Lots of players have said Bowen is flat-out dirty, that he cheats and cheapshots. I remember Ray Allen, for example, and I believe also Jamal Crawford/Isaiah Thomas openly accusing Bowen of being dirty in a post-game interview. Add Amare to that list. I've seen ESPN sportswriters go on record that they think Bowen gets away with dirty play. I've read tons of opinions on ESPN from fans across the country who think the Spurs are dirty. Ginobili has been a source of controversy for the style of basketball he plays many times. His elbows have been looked at by the league, other players have complained about them also. He flops constantly. He's the master flopper of the league; a lot of people consider that to be unsportsmanlike, and the league has even considered making it a technical. Again, I've read sportswriters comment on Ginobili's style of throwing his body around all over the place as "dangerous" to other players. I specifically remember how that bag injured Barbosa by flopping and fouling him. And then there's Robert Horry. Oh, and Tim Duncan gets away with tons of . Everyone knows he gets star treatment, and is allowed to throw opponents out of his way whenever he wants a rebound. So go yourself with that nonsense about how nobody thinks the Spurs are dirty.

[samikeyp]

oh I see, so because you claim to admire Pop and his "dirty ways" we're supposed to accept your crying and whining as fact? You can all you want, but everyone knows the Spurs aren't dirty. The only pathetic s that keep going back and complaining are Suns fans. No surprise there. On top of everything, your star is dirty as well, so what the are you complaining about?

Actually no...there are plenty of people around the league who dislike the way the Spurs play. There are plenty of sportswriters, media types and fans who like the way they play and plenty that don't. Then again, you could do that with any team and other championship teams have been treated the same way. As I have said before...to say no one outside the Spurs fanbase likes the Spurs or the way they play is foolish...to say everyone outside the Spurs fanbase likes the Spurs or they way they play is equally foolish.

[DannyB]

Actually no...there are plenty of people around the league who dislike the way the Spurs play. There are plenty of sportswriters, media types and fans who like the way they play and plenty that don't. Then again, you could do that with any team and other championship teams have been treated the same way. As I have said before...to say no one outside the Spurs fanbase likes the Spurs or the way they play is foolish...to say everyone outside the Spurs fanbase likes the Spurs or they way they play is equally foolish.

Ok. You got me. I agree that I should have used more precision with my words. What I mean to say is that there are a lot of NBA fans nationwide who do not like the Spurs, think the way the play is boring, and even that they are dirty. There are also players, coaches, and owners who have gone on record saying much the same. Finally, as you said, there have been many in the media who have said the same. I'm not absolutist. I know that there actually are Spurs fans in Michigan, New York & L.A. Not a of a lot, but I know not everyone thinks they are evil outside SA.

[Walter Craparita]

Ok. You got me. I agree that I should have used more precision with my words. What I mean to say is that there are a lot of NBA fans nationwide who do not like the Spurs, think the way the play is boring, and even that they are dirty. There are also players, coaches, and owners who have gone on record saying much the same. Finally, as you said, there have been many in the media who have said the same. I'm not absolutist. I know that there actually are Spurs fans in Michigan, New York & L.A. Not a of a lot, but I know not everyone thinks they are evil outside SA.

Just like plenty of Americans will vote Shaq into the ASG over Howard?

Americans are idiots and only care about who is more popular. Most don't know about their future politicians and just let the media dwindle down the compe ion and tell them who to vote for. Because the Spurs are "boring", the media wants to stir up some controversy and call them dirty. The idiots in our nation who don't pay attention to the Spurs, eat this garbage up and cheer for the loser Suns.

Hilton > Whoever in America.

I love being a fan of the most evil team in the history of planet earth. If only the refs weren't complete idiots, it'd be really nice.

[monosylab1k]

What I mean to say is that there are a lot of NBA fans nationwide who do not like the Spurs, think the way the play is boring, and even that they are dirty. There are also players, coaches, and owners who have gone on record saying much the same.

Let's see some quotes.

Other than Bruce Bowen, who else on the Spurs is considered "dirty" by other players, coaches, or owners?

Bruce Bowen does not equal the entire Spurs team. By that logic, the Suns are the dirtiest team in NBA history since Raja Bell holds a roster spot for them.

I'd also love to see quotes of players, coaches, owners who think that championship-level basketball is "boring".

[DannyB]

Let's see some quotes.

Other than Bruce Bowen, who else on the Spurs is considered "dirty" by other players, coaches, or owners?

Bruce Bowen does not equal the entire Spurs team. By that logic, the Suns are the dirtiest team in NBA history since Raja Bell holds a roster spot for them.

I'd also love to see quotes of players, coaches, owners who think that championship-level basketball is "boring".

Seriously? You want me to do a little research project for you and collect all the quotes and complaints about the Spurs from the past few years? I don't know what to say. If you're taking the position that nobody has said the Spurs are dirty (besides Bowen), then you really need to follow the media outside San Antonio. That's ridiculous. Even a few Spurs fans have admitted that the Spurs are perceived as dirty around the league. What's your problem with denial?

[samikeyp]

Mono lives in Dallas.

[monosylab1k]

You want me to do a little research project for you and collect all the quotes and complaints about the Spurs from the past few years?

No, do it for yourself since you claim that there's alot of "players, coaches, and owners" who think the Spurs are dirty and boring. I know what the fan perception of the Spurs is - let's see all the player, coach, & owner quotes that prove you're right about that aspect. Otherwise, you're just doing that which you do best - talking out of your ass.

I'm guessing you find an Amare, D'Antoni, Sarver, & Ray Allen quote (none of which count) and else.

[Armando]

Are we still beating this dead horse? Can we just look forward to Suns/Kings and Spurs/Hawks? I am done talking about that series and if the Spurs are dirty. Everytime I get into that subject I just get aggravated. I am sure this will come up again in countless threads when Phoenix plays in San Antonio in December.

[samikeyp]

I would agree though. I have seen quotes about Bowen being dirty, quotes about Horry's shot on Nash being cheap and about Ginobili's flopping and flailing but nothing about Parker, Duncan, Bonner, Vaughn, Mahinmi, Washington, Barry, Elson, Oberto, Udoka, or Finley being dirty or acting that way. I'm totally serious, if I missed it, please post links.

[Armando]

I would agree though. I have seen quotes about Bowen being dirty, quotes about Horry's shot on Nash being cheap and about Ginobili's flopping and flailing but nothing about Parker, Duncan, Bonner, Vaughn, Mahinmi, Washington, Barry, Elson, Oberto, Udoka, or Finley being dirty or acting that way. I'm totally serious, if I missed it, please post links.

To be fair Bowen's dirty rep did not start in San Antonio. Don't forget his days in Miami.