Duncan sits, Bonner shines, Manu plays like trash

[ChumpDumper]

Vince Carter

[greens]

TheAuthority, I didn't really want to post anything...since I'm tired of the BASHING threads of all the players...However, some thoughts...Manu had a left SHOOTING hand injury during all of last week, was "questionable" to play even(read some articles to confirm that)...but hounded Pop to let him play, cuz he knew the team needed him since Tim was not playing...He was STILL able to get 37pts back to back against DALLAS and UTAH, two very physical teams...YET, he has ONE bad game, and all this bashing...That's just sad...for you that is.

and another thing...Tony also had an injury all of last week with his ankles...(you can also confirm the articles...just google it...)

I think BOTH Manu and Tony would be seating out right now if Tim was playing...instead, they're doing their best out there...give them a break there...

Why can't people just respect the WHOLE team for a change and not bash anyone...I mean they are all on the same team, winning championships together, instead every day there is a thread bashing Tony or Manu or Bruce...etc...It's ridiculous...

Basketball is a TEAM sport...not one player vs the other...

I actually like that this is a real team, not "I'm better than you...I'm the superstar...etc..." These people play together...That is WHY they win. Individuals do not win championships...teams do!

[Cry Havoc]

Kind of like what I do at your signature, ing dork. rofl

You know, people who think you can buy "class" in a clearance sale at Wal-mart should really be a little less bold with some of the things they say. Degrading someone over the internet for something in their sig is absolute hypocrisy of the worst kind. He's a dork, that's why you're flaming him on an NBA message board.

[SequSpur]

You guys are gay.

[TheAuthority]

you're comparing manu's ty game last night (his only of the season) to wince carter who QUIT on his team (some franchise player), and ironically enough he almost got booed out of the arena last night for shooting like crap. at least manu gets to the line (and hits most)! and in that game he was intentionally fouled twice, if not 3 times (dont remember exactly), in the last minute. that makes his FTs 13 or 11.

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

but what really makes me laugh is that you dog manu for not doing anything outside of scoring, then you're saying you'll take bonner over horry. horry > bonner because he's the 2nd best defensive big we have, not because he shoots at a nice clip from 3.

Cool, he plays defense. How old is Bonner? 25? What kind of position defense was Horry playing at 25? He may have been a better defender, but I'm willing to bet he was just as lost as Bonner is at times on D. Besides that, Bonner gives 110% every time out. And he rebounds. I'm satisfied with his defense as long as he's playing it as hard as he can. Horry is a bum. The guy slacks off the entire season, he even admits to doing so. Hey, Robert, you're not Shaquille O'Neal, bro. You sure as shouldn't have the privilege of only playing hard during the playoffs, because you've done nothing to earn it. Wow, you won some rings? How many of those teams were you even the 3rd best player on? 0? Oh...

but carry on using your basketball knowledge to boil the game down to shooting percentages, its not like those percentages are affected by whats happening on the court or anything...

That makes sense, I suppose. Just kidding, it doesn't at all.

[TheAuthority]

You guys are gay.

That doesn't stop you from being a fan of Tony Parker.

[TheAuthority]

TheAuthority, I didn't really want to post anything...since I'm tired of the BASHING threads of all the players...However, some thoughts...Manu had a left SHOOTING hand injury during all of last week, was "questionable" to play even(read some articles to confirm that)...but hounded Pop to let him play, cuz he knew the team needed him since Tim was not playing...He was STILL able to get 37pts back to back against DALLAS and UTAH, two very physical teams...YET, he has ONE bad game, and all this bashing...That's just sad...for you that is.

and another thing...Tony also had an injury all of last week with his ankles...(you can also confirm the articles...just google it...)


I think BOTH Manu and Tony would be seating out right now if Tim was playing...instead, they're doing their best out there...give them a break there...

Wow, people have bumps and bruises during an NBA season? You're kiiiidding me. Honestly, dude, who isn't hurt during an NBA season? Suck it up.

Why can't people just respect the WHOLE team for a change and not bash anyone...I mean they are all on the same team, winning championships together, instead every day there is a thread bashing Tony or Manu or Bruce...etc...It's ridiculous...

I'll call out anyone on the team, including Tim.

Basketball is a TEAM sport...not one player vs the other...

I actually like that this is a real team, not "I'm better than you...I'm the superstar...etc..." These people play together...That is WHY they win. Individuals do not win championships...teams do!

I agree with that. I also would like to say basketball, more than any other sport, can be affected most by one player. It's probably the most individualistic major sport there is.

[Mister Sinister]

That doesn't stop you from being a fan of Tony Parker.

Someone just came out.

[diego]

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

this is my last response because you obviously live in a fantasy world (and avoid anything that might take you out of it).

carter gives good effort 90% of the time? you do know HE QUIT ON HIS TEAM???? that is NOT 90% of the time, and i'd like you to go ask a raptors fan what he thinks of vince carter. This is a guy who showed up late to a game 7 ecf to go get his university degree (its not like he had a million dollar job to honor). But, let bygones be bygones. that's in the past. lets talk about the night before last, the same 24 hour period as manu's game.

you say carter shoulder's all the defenses attention, and has no help. last i checked, the nets have one of the best "big 3´s " in the league: a certain HOF point guard

( Ranks 5th on the NBA all-time list for assists per game (9.2) behind Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas... Named All- NBA First Team five times (2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1998-99) and Second Team in 2002-03... Named First Team All-Defensive in 2005-06, 2001-02, 2000-01 and 1998-99 and Second Team in 2004-05, 2003-04, 2002- 03 and 1999-00... Played in the All-Star Game as a starter four times (2002, 2001, 2000, 1996) and a reserve in 1998, 2003 and 2004, AND 3RD IN ASSISTS SO FAR THIS SEASON )

the current 5th ppg player in the league, who leads carter by almost 5 ppg (the amazing super star franchise player, richard RJ jefferson).

and finally, the great carter, who has already missed 5 games this season, at a pace of 25% of the season.

the other night carter had 16 points on 17 shots in 41 minutes and got his ass booed out the stadium.

the nets (kidd + RJ + kmart) went to 2 finals. the nets (kidd + rj + carter) have made it to the 2nd round.

go continue your vince man love and stop pretending to be a spurs fan. spurs fans know what defense is.

[TheAuthority]

this is my last response because you obviously live in a fantasy world (and avoid anything that might take you out of it).

carter gives good effort 90% of the time? you do know HE QUIT ON HIS TEAM???? that is NOT 90% of the time, and i'd like you to go ask a raptors fan what he thinks of vince carter. This is a guy who showed up late to a game 7 ecf to go get his university degree (its not like he had a million dollar job to honor). But, let bygones be bygones. that's in the past. lets talk about the night before last, the same 24 hour period as manu's game.

you say carter shoulder's all the defenses attention, and has no help. last i checked, the nets have one of the best "big 3´s " in the league: a certain HOF point guard

( Ranks 5th on the NBA all-time list for assists per game (9.2) behind Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas... Named All- NBA First Team five times (2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1998-99) and Second Team in 2002-03... Named First Team All-Defensive in 2005-06, 2001-02, 2000-01 and 1998-99 and Second Team in 2004-05, 2003-04, 2002- 03 and 1999-00... Played in the All-Star Game as a starter four times (2002, 2001, 2000, 1996) and a reserve in 1998, 2003 and 2004, AND 3RD IN ASSISTS SO FAR THIS SEASON )

the current 5th ppg player in the league, who leads carter by almost 5 ppg (the amazing super star franchise player, richard RJ jefferson).

and finally, the great carter, who has already missed 5 games this season, at a pace of 25% of the season.

the other night carter had 16 points on 17 shots in 41 minutes and got his ass booed out the stadium.

the nets (kidd + RJ + kmart) went to 2 finals. the nets (kidd + rj + carter) have made it to the 2nd round.

go continue your vince man love and stop pretending to be a spurs fan. spurs fans know what defense is.

Boy, this is a funny post. First of all, I'm saying Carter gives good effort 22% of the time, not Manu. Second, Jason Kidd is not the player he was 5 years ago. I watch him on a regular basis. The guy's lost a step... or 3. Yeah, yeah... averaging almost a triple double, say what you want, I know what I see. Jefferson has been playing decent, but he's as inconsistent as they come. They look great on paper as a "big 3", but it's hardly that. The offense consists of repeated isolations and no ball movement. Half of the time they sit around and watch Vince until he gives it to them for a wide open look they're not ready to take, or don't have the capability to make. Seeing as how both RJ and Kidd are pretty bad 3 point shooters.

edit: Jason Kidd, who you speak so highly of, missed a game with a migraine. Need I say more?

[travis2]

TheAuthority = rascal.

nice call...

[m33p0]

Yeah, Manu didn't impact that Utah game at all, despite his "horrible" shooting -- he shot 43% from the floor for the game and 50% on shots inside the arc; we really should expect more from the guy!!

How can anyone think that a guy impacts a game when he only collected 8 boards, rolled up 6 assists, grabbed 3 steals, blocked one shot, forced Utah to change its defense to account for him, contested numerous passes on the defensive end, and forced who knows how many turnovers?

manu is a scrub. we're doomed!

Waily! Waily! Waily!

[ancestron]

wow, another parade of stupid!

[m33p0]

... Cool, he plays defense. How old is Bonner? 25? What kind of position defense was Horry playing at 25? He may have been a better defender, but I'm willing to bet he was just as lost as Bonner is at times on D...

sorry to butt in. i just wanted to point out something.

i do remember a time in horry's early career when he was the focal point of that houston rockets team. not sure what his age was back then or what record the rockets had (i'm sure it was ty). this happened because hakeem was lost for the season due to kidney problems and drexler already retired. the rockets were somewhere .500 and wasn't doing all that bad until horry himself got injured.

now, please continue.

[v2freak]

I definitely agree with you that Duncan's bad games don't impact the team as negatively as others'. I also used to think that there was a relationship between Duncan's bad games and Ginobili's bad games (NBA Finals 05 games 3, 4) but the two 37 point outbursts have proved me wrong.

[m33p0]

last year there was around 4 or 5 games where manu, tim and tony had bad games all at the same freaking time. needless to say, spurs lost those games. i think this year they should learn to schedule their bad games so they won't be taking their night offs at the same time.

[ambchang]

If I remember correctly, he shot badly but still impacted the game, something Parker and Ginobili typically don't do when they aren't scoring.

You are trying to say Manu can't impact a game when he is not scoring? Are we talking about the same Manu? The man who goes all out in every possession, get his hands on passing lanes, make great passes, scramble for loose ball, etc .... that Manu.

[ambchang]

Throw whatever fancy stats out you want. Fact of the matter is, he is there to contribute 3 point shooting and spread the floor for Duncan on offense. He converted at a 35% success rate. That is terrible. There's no way around it.

What day and age we live in, when 35% 3 pt shooting is considered terrible. The league average last year in the playoffs was around 35%. Not to mention that Horry threw in his low post defense, passing, and timely clutch shots.

Not going to complain. I'm going to say the referees gave him the majority of his points. Handed them to him, on a platter.

20 points and 17 from the referees.

So first, we are looking at one single game, then we should take out all the FTs? Ever occur to you that Manu got those FTs because he earned it by continuously driving to the basket?
So he scored 20 points (not including FTs) on 21 shots, that's an effective FG% of close to 50%, what do you want?

[ambchang]

Way to over-exaggerate.

How did he over-exaggerate (btw, what is under-exaggerate then? How about right-in-the-middle-exaggerate?) when it was you who said Manu scored 20 on 21 shots, because we should not count any of the 17 points from the line? Are we somehow to assume that FTs that are deserved should not be counted?

[ambchang]

I don't question he impacts the game in other areas. My assertion was that he doesn't impact the game the way a franchise player does. Manu is not used to be the guy they key in to stop night in and night out. Like a Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, AI(6ers), etc. He's never proven that he can be "the man".

Vince Carter? A franchise player? Really?
Could you enlighten me of how Vince Carter has demonstrated that he is/was a franchise player night in and night out? , start with his college days when he was "the man".

[ambchang]

35% in my eyes is terrible. Sorry, there's no way to change my mind. I don't care what the league average is. Do they count half court 3's at the end of quarters? Probably. Do they count 3's hoisted up by big men to beat a shot clock every now and then? Probably.

I would rather have Matt Bonner.

So you would expect half court 3s and shot clock beating 3's to be significant enough to affect the 3 pt % to a large degree? Please tell me you didn't major in statistics, better yet, please tell me you don't know what statistics mean because you are a person who is trying to argue Manu stinks and overreacts based on one game in December.

You would rather have Matt Bonner over Horry because one shoots a higher % on 3s than the other. I am sure you would rather have Daniel Gibson than Tayshaun Prince.

[ambchang]

You're getting the wrong impression. lol I do like Manu. I have a ing Manu jersey. I don't discredit anything he's done for the Spurs. My main points are:
1) He doesn't impact the game the way Duncan, or any other franchise player does.
2) He didn't bring the effort I expect of a professional basketball player against the Golden State Warriors.

Reallly? Weren't you arguing that 35% 3 pt shooting is terrible when that is league average, and how FTs shouldn't count?

[ambchang]

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

So giving effort 22% of the time is > giving effort 90% of the time? I should tell this to my boss after I get back from vacation.

Cool, he plays defense. How old is Bonner? 25? What kind of position defense was Horry playing at 25? He may have been a better defender, but I'm willing to bet he was just as lost as Bonner is at times on D. Besides that, Bonner gives 110% every time out. And he rebounds. I'm satisfied with his defense as long as he's playing it as hard as he can. Horry is a bum. The guy slacks off the entire season, he even admits to doing so. Hey, Robert, you're not Shaquille O'Neal, bro. You sure as shouldn't have the privilege of only playing hard during the playoffs, because you've done nothing to earn it. Wow, you won some rings? How many of those teams were you even the 3rd best player on? 0? Oh...

Horry was arguable the 3rd best player on the Rockets the Lakers, when he was younger.
And at 25, Horry won two championships with the Rockets by being an integral part of the offense and defense.
Finally, Horry is 36, he earned the rest during the regular season when he knows what's going on.

[ambchang]

I'll call out anyone on the team, including Tim.

I wish Tim could only give effort 22% of the time, by giving effort 90% of the time, he is getting in your doghouse.

[TheAuthority]

What day and age we live in, when 35% 3 pt shooting is considered terrible. The league average last year in the playoffs was around 35%. Not to mention that Horry threw in his low post defense, passing, and timely clutch shots.

42% FG, 35% 3pt FG is terrible. Sorry, there just isn't any arguing it.

So first, we are looking at one single game, then we should take out all the FTs? Ever occur to you that Manu got those FTs because he earned it by continuously driving to the basket?
So he scored 20 points (not including FTs) on 21 shots, that's an effective FG% of close to 50%, what do you want?

He earned... I would say, about half. The others he flailed because of minimal contact, or he initiated that contact himself, and got to the line. Moral of the story: 20 free throws is ridiculous. No matter what.

Are we somehow to assume that FTs that are deserved should not be counted?

Deserved? Nobody deserves 20 free throws.

Vince Carter? A franchise player? Really?
Could you enlighten me of how Vince Carter has demonstrated that he is/was a franchise player night in and night out? , start with his college days when he was "the man".

Let's see, taking the Raptors... who had absolutely nobody on their team, no business being in the position they were, 1 shot away from the NBA finals? Alvin Williams was clearly the man on that squad. My mistake. Silly me.

You really need to brush up on your basketball, bro. VC wasn't the man in college. Jamison was. Don't spew re ed bull around when you don't know what you're talking about.

You would rather have Matt Bonner over Horry because one shoots a higher % on 3s than the other. I am sure you would rather have Daniel Gibson than Tayshaun Prince.

Daniel Gibson and Prince play the same position? Nice example, moron. rofl And no, I want Bonner over Horry, because Horry is ing done. He's been done for a good 2 years now.

Reallly? Weren't you arguing that 35% 3 pt shooting is terrible when that is league average, and how FTs shouldn't count?

Yes, 35% from 3 is terrible. And no, I was saying nobody should get 20 free throws, and pointing out he shot 9-21... and that he had half of his points come from the foul line.

So giving effort 22% of the time is > giving effort 90% of the time? I should tell this to my boss after I get back from vacation.

Who was arguing that? I certainly wasn't. Learn to read a little better.

Horry was arguable the 3rd best player on the Rockets the Lakers, when he was younger.
And at 25, Horry won two championships with the Rockets by being an integral part of the offense and defense.
Finally, Horry is 36, he earned the rest during the regular season when he knows what's going on.

Sorry, in the grand scheme of things, Horry has earned nothing, besides being the biggest coattail rider of all-time. What's his career scoring average? 9 points a game? ROFL

I wish Tim could only give effort 22% of the time, by giving effort 90% of the time, he is getting in your doghouse.

I still don't get where you came to the conclusion I believe 22% > 90%.