Yes. Dirk rebounded a lot man. And in 04 Webber was gone, and barely played in 03. So you are basing your views on the 02 series.
Also don't forget that you are talking about a 22-24 year old Dirk against a 29-31 year old Webber. With KG, both players were almost the same age, with KG actually being a little older and pretty much at the greatest level he would ever achieve. Yet Dirk completely abused him.
And FWIW, I do agree Amare would be nobody without Nash. I think the rule applies just as well with the combo of Stockton-Malone. He is who he is because of Nash. And Nash looks awesome because he has somebody like Amare that can finish all that he creates. Otherwise, Nash would look like the old Mavs Nash, and Amare would look like the Bobcat's Wallace (standout hyper athletic offensive player).
All of this was tangental to my original point that you responded to.
I stated how if you just go by "clutch" shots, one could argue Boozer is better than Dirk, Garnett, and Duncan. I didn't make that statement because I believe that. I made that statement to argue against the fact that hitting clutch shots is the only way a player can be labeled "clutch."
And, that's why when you said it was a bad argument, I didn't argue that. That was my point. It's more than just hitting shots in the closing minutes of a game that makes a player "clutch." And, I'm not arguing I know more about Dirk than you or any Mavs fan. I'm giving you my opinion. Just like many Mavs fans give their opinion about Amare even though they don't watch as many Suns games as Suns fans. It's just an opinion. Same as Mavs fans telling me about Rasheed's capabilities and limitations when I've watched somewhere around 90% of the Pistons games since he's been in Detroit.
Whether or not you watch every Mavs game, you're a Mavs fan, and your opinion about Dirk and even Amare isn't exactly objective. So, your opinion on these things isn't exactly impartial anyway.
I used the MVP argument to say that his bandwagon was getting full way before 07. He was already being recognized as a top 5 player during the 05 season.
Yet Barkley never played defense, and is arguably considered the 3rd best PF of all time. That certainly doesn't make Dirk look like an outsider to the best PFs list.
Dirk may not have had the assist numbers, but his rebounding numbers were actually quite good, if not better than Webbers. Go back and look. Dirk has always been an underrated rebounder, especially in the playoffs, where he always averages around 11-13 boards a game.
And again, if you watches those series, you would not even have brought Webber into the discussion, because those series were decided by the play of Bibby and Nash.
Injured most of the year, Webber came back with like 20 games left in the regular season and played in all 12 Kings playoff games that post season, averaging about 37 mpg in those playoff games.
Good point. Didn't Garnett also average something like 20 ppg and 20 rpg in that three game series? Dirk may have scored at will, but wasn't KG still putting up huge numbers himself?Also don't forget that you are talking about a 22-24 year old Dirk against a 29-31 year old Webber. With KG, both players were almost the same age, with KG actually being a little older and pretty much at the greatest level he would ever achieve. Yet Dirk completely abused him.
edit: KG put up 24 ppg and 18.7 rpg in that series.
Don't feel like going through each of those games to look at the numbers. But, I'll take your word for it on Dirk's rebounding. As I said, Webber gave scoring, rebounding, and the offense ran through him to allow him to rack up assists while Dirk scored and rebounded. And, it just wasn't Bibby. I remember several games Chris put it on Dirk in those two series and ultimately the Kings won those series.
As I told you man, I lived in Michigan for the past 4 years. I have seen more Pistons than Mavs throughout that period, since most of these pirate links became available only about 2 seasons ago. If there is one team that I can speak of pretty well outside of the Mavs it's the Pistons.
I just said something which most Pistons fans don't like to hear, that's all. I can go further too, as for example that Rip and Chauncey was the real hero of the 04 championship. Yet, Chauncey is Mr.Big Shot and he took most of the credit. However he is probably the one player you can blame both the 06 and 07 meltdowns. But again, as a Piston fan you wouldn't like hearing that.
Webber came back .... and played like . He had to sit out the whole season.
Yet Dirk averaged 33 and 15 I think. Great numbers both way obviously, but Dirk decided that series. And they went head to head most of the time. Plus the Wolves had Chauncey and Wally in his All Star season that year. They had one of the best teams of the KG era. And Chauncey had a great series, 20something points. It was his last pre-Pistons year. He was coming into his own.
Saying you live in Michigan doesn't mean you watch the Pistons intently like Pistons fans do. Do you actually watch the offense they run under Flip Saunders? How often is Rasheed put in a position to shoot a midrange jumper? Rarely. There is one play I can remember in the past three years where the play is set up for Rasheed to actually shoot a midrange jumper other than off a post up. And, that was a reverse swing where Rasheed runs the baseline and shoots about a 12 footer on the baseline. The other midrange jumpers he shoots, he takes off of broken plays or offensive rebound kick outs. Saying he is not good at shooting a midrange jumper is not the same as not actually shooting it. The times I've seen Rasheed shoot midrange jumpers, he's been pretty effective.
I can take criticism of the Pistons just fine. I'm as critical of the Pistons as most non Pistons fans. I have stated on here that Chauncey Billups isn't even a top 5 point guard in the league. As for being the MVP in 2004, it was anyone's trophy for the Finals. Billups probably did play the best in the Finals. Rip Hamilton carried the Pistons in the ECF against the Pacers. If it was based on the entire playoffs, Rip probably did deserve the MVP. But, being as it is the Finals MVP, Billups was as deserving as anyone. There wasn't really an MVP to that 2004 Pistons team. That was as close to a team effort as you'll get for an NBA champion. Billups did have meltdowns the last two playoffs. Why wouldn't I want to hear that? He melted down against the Cavs last year and couldn't handle the traps they put on him near half court. And, against Miami, he couldn't buy a bucket. He was as much as at fault for those losses as anyone. You're not telling me anything new. And, you're not some preacher trying to set "Piston fan" free from homerism.
All I've argued was that Rasheed is more than capable of hitting midrange jumpers. You living in Michigan doesn't change my opinion on that at all.
^JamStone, that is my point with Sheed though. If it was a part of his game, as it SHOULD be because of his touch and skill, the Pistons would use it. But it clearely isn't and therefore he only does it occasionally, whereas a guy like Dirk has made it the most powerful shot of his arsenal. It proves my point that a man of his skill clearely lacked the heart, focus, to work on his game and become the player he could have been. It means that his shortcomings are not because of his 'unselfishness' but because of his lack of work ethic. You are only strengthening my argument here.
I said I lived in Michigan to tell you that I have watched a lot of Pistons games. I have missed a few here and there, but the Pistons were probably my 2nd favourite team. A distant 2nd but still. I am not pulling things out of my ass when I talk about them.
Happy you agree with me on the other things. Most friends of mine didn't. They were huge Chauncey lovers, which to me was a little absurd. All the team deserved the MVP for the Finals, true. But for what he did in the ECF against Artest even, Rip probably deserved more recognition than he got.
Sheed is more than capable of hitting any shot from inside 26 feet, in my opinion.
, whereas a guy like Dirk has made it the most powerful shot of his arsenal.
That must be why he shoots all those 18 foot fadeaways over 6'2" point guards.
He played like ?
After re-habbing most of the season, he came back and in that Dallas series averaged 19.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 4.0 apg, including a triple double in game 2.
Head to head, and both put up monster numbers. KG couldn't stop Dirk. Was Dirk stopping KG? No. And, KG was certainly controlling the glass. Billups did have a great series. That was probably one of the primary reasons he is in Detroit now. I really think Dumars watched that series and whether or not he was decided to pursue Chauncey as a free agent, that series helped close the deal. But, regardless, you talk as if Wally and Chauncey and then Rasho? and Sam Mitc ? and Joe Smith? is better than Finley in his prime, Nash, and Van Exellent. Even Lafrentz was leagues ahead of Nesterovic back then.Yet Dirk averaged 33 and 15 I think. Great numbers both way obviously, but Dirk decided that series. And they went head to head most of the time. Plus the Wolves had Chauncey and Wally in his All Star season that year. They had one of the best teams of the KG era. And Chauncey had a great series, 20something points. It was his last pre-Pistons year. He was coming into his own.
bosh is better but good list
Neither stopped each other, which should be KG's forte as a great defender. Dirk was more unstopabble. Simple as that.
Chauncey was arguably the 3rd best player in that series, and Wally was having a better year statistically than Finley. He was an All star over a declining Fin. The Wolves had Peeler that year, who was at the time one of the best 3pt shooters in the league, but yes the Mavs had a better bench with NVE, and LaFrentz was better than Rasho then. But they had just arrived in Dallas, and didn't hit their stride until next season. That series was decided by KG v. Dirk, simple as that.
Cry-Havoc is a troll, so I won't feed you.
And Dirk averaged.....?
Plus Webber broke the rhythm of that team man, they had a much better chance without him.
This is where your point is misguided. With this Pistons team, the offense is set up around Rip Hamilton's off the ball movement, curls, and midrange jumpshooting. There are other set plays, but during the course of a long regular season, the majority of plays are run through Rip and his movement. Rasheed's role on offense is primarily variations of three sets: the high pick-and-pop where he sets a pick for Chauncey and slides out for a three point attempt, a normal post-up on the low block, and then the free throw extended high post where he acts more as a passer and screener than a jump shooter. If you follow the Pistons at all like you claim, you would know that on this Pistons team, the majority of the shots go to Rip and Chauncey. Rasheed is generally a secondary, often times third option on offense unless there is a decided advantage on the low block and they're trying to establish inside. For optimum spacing for Prince and Billups to work down low when they post up, the lesser used offensive sets place Rasheed at the elbow three point line for kick outs. This allows more space for Billups or Prince to work down low without quick double teams by Rasheed's primary defender.
The Pistons offense doesn't feature Rasheed as the primary scorer as Dallas does with Dirk. Moreover, 98% of Pistons half court set plays are not isolation plays. More than half of Dirk's shot attempts come from a face-up isolation, even when it results from a pick-and-pop. Rasheed rarely gets the ball in midrange in an isolation situation. It's not for lack of skill or ability. It's because the Pistons actually run an offense. Rasheed is not a great ball handler as it pertains to putting the ball on the floor and attacking a defender off the dribble. So, getting the ball in midrange on a face-up does not make as much sense because he's limited to shooting it or passing it, not dribbling it. It's not because he can't shoot it from midrange. It's because he has fewer options in that position. So, you'll rarely see Rasheed in that position. It's not that he hasn't developed that skill. It's just not used often. Rasheed is not an isolation player. That doesn't mean he's not a very good midrange jump shooter.
If player A has better stats than player B, that automatically means play B "played like ?"
The Kings beat the Mavs 4-1 in that series, and went to game 7 against the Wolves in the second round, the team with the best record that season. How exactly did Webber break the rhythm of that team? I remember rumblings how the Kings played better without Webber, that Brad Miller was great at the power forward position in Webber's absence. All bull . Without Webber, the Kings probably don't beat the Mavs in that first round.
^Right, but isn't that enough to say that one of the most talented PFs of all time clearely didn't work on his game enough to become more than the third or even fourth (behind Prince) option on offense. With the skills that he has I don't know why he couldn't develop close to Dirk level on offense, and become a major headache as an iso player.
I love Rip more than anyone on the Pistons, but Sheed should have been the focal point of the offense over a guy that pretty much willed himself to the point where he is now.
Well the funny thing is that the Mavs outscored the Kings throughout that series, so that 4-1 score should be taken with a grain of salt. If player A had much better stats than player B, it only means that player A is better which was the main point we are arguing if I remember.
The 'played like ' was my observation. I remember the Kings BEING the 1 seed throughout the season, Peja being a possible MVP, and then Webber's return knocking them to 4th. I remember a very fluid offense become very static. And I remember them blowing a possible 2-0 lead in Minny, and which cost them the series. I think the Webber-less Kings that year could have gone to the WCF. Probably not win, but in my mind they were better without him.
Not arguing that Dirk wasn't more unstoppable. But, if he didn't stop KG either, why is it that Dirk "dominated" KG when KG was basically putting up 24 and 18? Mavs fans are claiming Dirk dominated him while KG held his own.
Finley averaged 25 pts and 7 rbds in that series against the T-Wolves.Chauncey was arguably the 3rd best player in that series, and Wally was having a better year statistically than Finley. He was an All star over a declining Fin.
And, Finley had the better year statistically. As what happens frequently with all star games, Wally was selected over Finley because of team record, not because of statistical superiority.
You can go down player by player. You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Timberwolves had a better supporting cast around KG than Dallas did around Dirk, which you just started realizing, because that's what you were initially trying to argue otherwise with the Billups/Wally comments. Lest we forget that Billups wasn't even supposed to be the starting point guard of the Wolves in the playoffs. That was Terrell Brandon's team. But, you want to argue how NVE and Lefrentz had just arrived?The Wolves had Peeler that year, who was at the time one of the best 3pt shooters in the league, but yes the Mavs had a better bench with NVE, and LaFrentz was better than Rasho then. But they had just arrived in Dallas, and didn't hit their stride until next season. That series was decided by KG v. Dirk, simple as that.
It did come down to KG and Dirk and if you want acknowledgment that Dirk outplayed KG, I have no problem with that. I have a problem with saying Dirk dominated or owned KG when KG held his own.
Actually your main point first was that Chris Webber didn't even play in 2004, which was incorrect. Then it was that when he came back, he played like . Remember?
How do you remember that now but initially you didn't even remember Webber coming back at all in 2004?The 'played like ' was my observation. I remember the Kings BEING the 1 seed throughout the season, Peja being a possible MVP, and then Webber's return knocking them to 4th. I remember a very fluid offense become very static. And I remember them blowing a possible 2-0 lead in Minny, and which cost them the series. I think the Webber-less Kings that year could have gone to the WCF. Probably not win, but in my mind they were better without him.
When Webber came back in the regular season, it did take an adjustment period for the team to find chemistry. But, had he not returned, the Kings weren't going to beat the Mavs, much less get to the WCF as you claim.
I said he barely played in the 03 series man, when Dirk led the Mavs to a series victory. he came back in 04, yet while the Kings won, Dirk was clearely better than him. The Kings did not win because of Webber.
In the 02 series their production was very equal.
I was saying all of this because of your response to my argument that Dirk is better than KG because he outplayed him in their series. Your response was that Webber than should be considered better than Dirk, while I was trying to tell you that thier playoff history does not show that. That's all.
As of what the Kings would have done that season, that's pure speculation on both parts, and I couldn't care less really. I know they were the 1 seed before Webber came back. They dropped, and that was the last time we ever heard of them after that season.
Rasheed just isn't that guy. One of Rasheed's greatest traits as a basketball player is his unselfishness as a teammate and his sincere desire for his teammates to succeed. He has uncanny loyalty to teammates and unquestioned sincerity in his willingness to do whatever it takes to not only win, but to do it in a way that's best for the team. You won't find many players like Sheed that have the abilities to be one of the best players in the league but the unselfishness to want his teammates to be great. You just won't.
Bull . Rasheed was "the guy" in Portland for a couple years, and they had some success. Rip and Chauncey were the established "go-to" guys in Detroit when Rasheed joined, and the Pistons went to back-to-back NBA Finals, winning one. Makes no sense to try to build around Rasheed when not only Rasheed was comfortable being a complementary player, but both Billups and Hamilton were very good being the "go to" guys on the team.I love Rip more than anyone on the Pistons, but Sheed should have been the focal point of the offense over a guy that pretty much willed himself to the point where he is now.
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