Your top 10 players all-time

[dbreiden83080]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Bill Russell
7. Michael Jordan
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Jerry West
10. Shaquille O'Neal

Jerry West is not a Top 10 player ever. And Magic is number 1, LOL you got Kareem 2 and he was better than Magic.

[jacobdrj]

I will only comment on the players that I have seen play.

Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Pierce
Wade
Miller
Malone
Rodman
Kidd

[Lakers08Champs]

Jerry West is not a Top 10 player ever. And Magic is number 1, LOL you got Kareem 2 and he was better than Magic.

Yes absolutely in my mind he is. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[dbreiden83080]

I will only comment on the players that I have seen play.

Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Pierce
Wade
Miller
Malone
Rodman
Kidd

KG is better than Karl Malone, WTF

[whottt]

Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abful Jabbar
Larry Bird
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Hakeem
Dr. J
Jordan

Honorable mentions: Russell, Barkley, Gervin, Malone, Stockton and Shaq.

[monosylab1k]

1. Devin Harris
2. DeSagana Diop
3. Baron Davis
4. Michael Jordan
5. Tim Thomas
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Michael Finley
9. Matt Barnes
10. Tim Legler

Honorable Mention - Larry Bird

[dickface]

Before anybody takes anything Bob Lanier says in this thread seriously, take a look at these two posts he made.

Peja's 6-9 and is an underrated defensive player.

I'd say he's about as good a defensive player as Carmelo Anthony or Corey Maggette -- which is to say, about average.

Either he's the greatest troll ever or doesn't know jack about basketball.

[dickface]

I'm really not sure what is funnier - claiming Peja is an average defender, or using Carmelo & Maggette as examples of an "average" defender

[mystargtr34]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Olajuwon
8. Shaq
9. Bird
10. Thomas

Until Kobe can lead a team to a championship like these guys... then he will probably crackthe top 10.

[J.T.]

Kobe is in his fifth le series in 8 years!!! He has been the leader on each team he has played on.

You should never, ever post here again after that second sentence.

[ambchang]

You talk as if you start watching this sport last week. Kobe is in his fifth le series in 8 years!!! He has been the leader on each team he has played on.

False

All this pathetic talk about Kobe not doing anything without Shaq is flat out stupid. Check his stats dumb dumb.

False

You know what... Duncan would be ringless without Robinson and Parker.

False

Kobe hit all the big shots during our championship years, while Shaq sat on the bench during crunch time. He was the teams most valuble player.

False

Everytime the game was on the line, the play was drawn up for Kobe to go one on one, not Shaq... NEVER!

Robert Horry > All

Shaq averaged 28/12 his first 11 years in the league compared to Duncans 21/11. Duncan was afraid to guard Shaq, but Shaq always guraded Duncan.

False

The Spurs have always shielded Duncan away from guarding the other teams big man... these are facts. Shaq has been to 6 les series, winning 4, MVP of three. Duncan has been to 4, winning 4, MVP of 3. Duncan has never put up the numbers of Shaq, infact, he has never been close. Theres no comparison, only a fool would take Duncan over Shaq.

False

And Kobe has more talent, and is more clutch than both Shaq and Duncan combined. Stop being stupid and give credit where its due. You dont have to like Kobe to recognize how good he is.

I didn’t know shooting a lower % in the playoffs than the regular season is being considered clutch.

[polandprzem]

1. MJ
2. Bill
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. TD
6. Wilt
7. Kareem
8. Mikan
9. K.Malone
10.The Doctor

Cousy, Havlicek Stockton, Frazier, Arizin, Moses, Pet , Sir...


the rankings anyway ...

[whottt]

Drob on but Shaq/Russell off?

Drob>Shaq


I've always had a hard time classifying Russell...he probably deserves to be higher but...I can't get past the fact that he played with 4-5 other HOF'ers every year of his career.

Thing about him is...evryone acts like he is tough and Wilt is soft, but if you look at their playoff numbers...Wilt's were better.

And Russell couldn't shoot free throws worth a either...yet you never hear anyone mention that.

He's overrated by most people...this is my way of making that up.

[stretch]

He has been the leader on each team he has played on. All this pathetic talk about Kobe not doing anything without Shaq is flat out stupid. Check his stats dumb dumb. You know what... Duncan would be ringless without Robinson and Parker. Kobe hit all the big shots during our championship years, while Shaq sat on the bench during crunch time. He was the teams most valuble player. Everytime the game was on the line, the play was drawn up for Kobe to go one on one, not Shaq... NEVER!

I have to agree with a lot of this here.

While the Lakers really were Shaq's team, when it came to crunchtime and the 4th quarter, KOBE was the one making the biggest plays. Kobe was the one carrying the team when Shaq would pick up ing dumbass fouls or have to get pulled from the game when teams went hack-a-shaq because he was such a lazy fat-ass and wouldnt work on free-throws. Kobe was ALWAYS the big-game player and won the games down the stretch. Not Shaq. They both needed each other, there is no question about that, but when the game mattered most, Phil always went to Kobe first, and thats what matters more.

[whottt]

I think Bull Russell is like the Joe Dimaggio of basketball...if you take him over Ted Williams...you're an idiot, I don't care how many rings he's got.

[baseline bum]

I have to agree with a lot of this here.

While the Lakers really were Shaq's team, when it came to crunchtime and the 4th quarter, KOBE was the one making the biggest plays. Kobe was the one carrying the team when Shaq would pick up ing dumbass fouls or have to get pulled from the game when teams went hack-a-shaq because he was such a lazy fat-ass and wouldnt work on free-throws. Kobe was ALWAYS the big-game player and won the games down the stretch. Not Shaq. They both needed each other, there is no question about that, but when the game mattered most, Phil always went to Kobe first, and thats what matters more.

What? Shaq carried them in OT of game 7 vs Sacramento. Shaq carried them in the 4th of game 7 vs Portland. Shaq dominated the 01 and 02 Finals. Shaq's the only one who showed up in the 04 Finals.

[stretch]

What? Shaq carried them in OT of game 7 vs Sacramento. Shaq carried them in the 4th of game 7 vs Portland. Shaq dominated the 01 and 02 Finals. Shaq's the only one who showed up in the 04 Finals.

Don't even get me started on listing all the games that Kobe had taken over because of Shaq's lazy fat ass...

And the 04 Finals is crap, because the Pistons were basically letting Shaq get his, letting Ben Wallace do his best to defend him (and he did a pretty good job too), and doing what they could to keep everyone else at bay.

[midnightpulp]

Lakaluva is obviously a homer and has an evident bias against Duncan. And when someone suggests Kobe Bryant is a top ten player, their credibility is automatically suspect.

I love the way Kobe homers act like the Kobe/Shaq tandem was an equal symbiotic relationship, when in reality, it was more like child/parent relationship.

Let's take a look at Kobe's career stats, paying special attention to playoff stats, the only numbers that matter.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

When he was teammate of Shaq and in his prime, Kobe shot 442, 469, 434, 432, and 413. I fail to see how it can even be fathomed Kobe was any sort of leader on these teams. Sure he had clutch moments. Most top tier perimeter players will, but there were many, many, many times where he tried to take over games and wound up being a detriment. Anyone with an ounce of functional brain matter will realize all Shaq needed during that era was an effective perimeter scorer. Sorry, Laker fan, Tracy McGrady would've gotten the job done as well.

Look at his numbers from that time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...mcgratr01.html

And he didn't have the luxury of working off one of the greatest centers of all time.

Kobe also has the distinction of being on the all-time worst Finals performers list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ormances-Worst

TD has made the greatest list 4 times, with two performances ranked 3 and 11, and the only player besides MJ and Shaq who has two Finals series with a PER rating over 30.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-3

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ormances-11-20


Kobe has barely begun his legacy as a team leader, and Kobe-kids do their best t overvalue those les he won with Shaq, and erroneously use them to strengthen his career. It counts for something, sure, but not in the way you'd like to think.

Prior to this year, what has the guy really done? Win scoring les? Miss the playoffs? Two first round exits? Bad teammates or not, this is his first all-time great year, and if we're supposed to believe he's a Top Ten great, he needs 3 or 4 more years just like 08.

Kobe in the Top Ten...only in the mind of a Kobe-kid.

[midnightpulp]

I have to agree with a lot of this here.

While the Lakers really were Shaq's team, when it came to crunchtime and the 4th quarter, KOBE was the one making the biggest plays. Kobe was the one carrying the team when Shaq would pick up ing dumbass fouls or have to get pulled from the game when teams went hack-a-shaq because he was such a lazy fat-ass and wouldnt work on free-throws. Kobe was ALWAYS the big-game player and won the games down the stretch. Not Shaq. They both needed each other, there is no question about that, but when the game mattered most, Phil always went to Kobe first, and thats what matters more.

Selective memory. As much as Kobe took over, he shot his team out of games at an equal rate.

His shot selection was piss poor in those days. Just look at his playoff shooting percentages from that era. He had one above average shooting guard number when he shot 469. I don't care how "clutch" you're perceived to be, shooting in the 430s is a detriment, especially when you have a great center to work off.

[stretch]

Selective memory. As much as Kobe took over, he shot his team out of games at an equal rate.

His shot selection was piss poor in those days. Just look at his playoff shooting percentages from that era. He had one above average shooting guard number when he shot 469. I don't care how "clutch" you're perceived to be, shooting in the 430s is a detriment, especially when you have a great center to work off.

I agree his shot selection was poor. But he always was stepping it up come close games in the 4th quarter. He very often was hitting his shots and making plays when he needed to be making them.

I always have said it was Shaq's team. But Kobe was still their best playmaker, and their most dangerous player in crunchtime, because players of his mold throughout history, are always the hardest players to stop in clutch moments of games.

I'm not sure if you are thinking im just some kobe lover that is saying that Kobe > Duncan, just because im giving him props, and because a lot of spurs fans here are WAYYY too oversensitive and anytime they see another player get props, they think its a slight against Timmy D or something. I'm just saying what I saw in those old Shaq/Kobe Lakers teams. It was Shaq's team. Kobe was the catalyst. They both needed each other equally. Both of their egos ruined a great team. But my issue lies more with Shaq than Kobe, because Shaq was the one that was too lazy and had too much of a piss poor at ude to stay committed to winning, making dumb comments like "i got injured on company time so i should have to get surgery on company time". Kobe may have made some bad desicions, and said some dumb things, but his committment to winning never changed.

[midnightpulp]

I agree his shot selection was poor. But he always was stepping it up come close games in the 4th quarter. He very often was hitting his shots and making plays when he needed to be making them.

I always have said it was Shaq's team. But Kobe was still their best playmaker, and their most dangerous player in crunchtime, because players of his mold throughout history, are always the hardest players to stop in clutch moments of games.

I'm not sure if you are thinking im just some kobe lover that is saying that Kobe > Duncan, just because im giving him props, and because a lot of spurs fans here are WAYYY too oversensitive and anytime they see another player get props, they think its a slight against Timmy D or something. I'm just saying what I saw in those old Shaq/Kobe Lakers teams. It was Shaq's team. Kobe was the catalyst. They both needed each other equally. Both of their egos ruined a great team. But my issue lies more with Shaq than Kobe, because Shaq was the one that was too lazy and had too much of a piss poor at ude to stay committed to winning, making dumb comments like "i got injured on company time so i should have to get surgery on company time". Kobe may have made some bad desicions, and said some dumb things, but his committment to winning never changed.

Not at all. Was referring to Lakaluva who is ignoring all logic in this debate. Duncan has the stats, awards, achievements, performances, to suggest he's a top ten great, which most experts agree on, but he continues to stubbornly argue the contrary without really providing anything that disproves Duncan's status. Regular season stats?

But I do disagree with the second comment in bold. Shaq was unreplaceable during that time, but a prime and healthy Tmac, who was Kobe's near equal at the time, would've been enough if he were the second option. In 00, the Lakers beat the Pacers 4-1 with Kobe only averaging 15 PPG on about 40% shooting. So you see how his production wasn't direly needed.

[stretch]

Not at all. Was referring to Lakaluva who is ignoring all logic in this debate. Duncan has the stats, awards, achievements, performances, to suggest he's a top ten great, which most experts agree on, but he continues to stubbornly argue the contrary without really providing anything that disproves Duncan's status. Regular season stats?

K, just wasn't sure, cuz thats how some spurs fans act on here, especially noobs. But you obviously arent one of them.

anyways, I agree that Duncan is a great player. All-time great. Best PF ever, and definitely a top 5 all-time in my book.

But I do disagree with the second comment in bold. Shaq was unreplaceable during that time, but a prime and healthy Tmac, who was Kobe's near equal at the time, would've been enough if he were the second option. In 00, the Lakers beat the Pacers 4-1 with Kobe only averaging 15 PPG on about 40% shooting. So you see how his production wasn't direly needed.

My point was... Shaq would not have been able to win the le without a teammate like Kobe. and Kobe would not have been able to win without a teammate like Shaq. Now I do think you could have replaced Shaq with Duncan, or Kobe with T-Mac, and they still would have 3-peated during those years. But fact is, the constant is that there is a dominant big man, and a dominant swingman that would need each other's help to win the le.

[slayermin]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Oscar Robertson
10. David Robinson