Spurs trade ideas

[LeBowen]

The Jazz are actually starting to play much better. Largely on the strength of the play of John Collins. He's averaging 22, 9, and 3 over his last five. He has become much more of a playmaker this year doubling his career assist number. All of a sudden his contract isn't terrible. In fact, I think there is a good chance that he opts out of the last year of the contract next year at $26 million. He's been shooting 37% from 3 last year and this year. They have him playing center at 6'9" with a 7 footer playing perimeter on offense. Hmmm. If you think Sochan is better coming off the bench then he would be a pretty okay fit with Wemby.

Yeah, Collins is a good player. He injured his shooting hand ring finger and fell off in his last season with the Hawks, but his contract is fair value considering his level of play.
We also mentioned him during the summer.
I'd say he'd be perfect for a 3 man frontcourt rotation.
Jeremy and Wemby start, Collins comes in early since Wemby is always the first one to sit. Then when Jeremy sits Wemby comes back into the game.
Collins can be the C against almost every bench big with ease, especially if he keeps shooting it this well. And we keep Bassey to play some minutes here and there if needed.

Not sure what the deal is, but it would likely have to include Keldon.

Collins for Collins+Tre work perfectly salary wise if we don't plan on keeping Tre.
Then Utah can flip Tre for some assets. Maybe Spurs add that fake Hornets FRP or something.

[Chinook]

I don't think even ATL feels like Zach is on a good contract right now. There's a difference between thinking he's been a bad use of cap space and that he's been a bad player. If this were 2019, I could understand that idea. But we've seen years of legit bad play now. We should be better calibrated.

I wonder if Wemby's further movement toward the perimeter means the team could revisit two-big lineups. I still don't think Collins is a great fit there, though I do think the Spurs basically had the two play the opposite roles than their comfort zone. I think Collins wants to be an inside big with Wemby on the outside, whereas the Spurs tried to have Collins be the shooter to space for Wemby inside. I think an aggressive rim-runner like Bassey would be a better compliment both for Victor and for the guards who could use a more straight-forward PnR workhorse. With guys like Sochan and Castle, getting a center into the mix isn't without risk. But I'd look into it with Jeremy's injury and Barnes being due for low minutes if not a rest game (the rest game is very unlikely while Barnes is on a 234-game streak of consecutive starts). That seems far preferable to playing Mamu with the starters.

[ginobilized]

I don't think even ATL feels like Zach is on a good contract right now. There's a difference between thinking he's been a bad use of cap space and that he's been a bad player. If this were 2019, I could understand that idea. But we've seen years of legit bad play now. We should be better calibrated.

I wonder if Wemby's further movement toward the perimeter means the team could revisit two-big lineups. I still don't think Collins is a great fit there, though I do think the Spurs basically had the two play the opposite roles than their comfort zone. I think Collins wants to be an inside big with Wemby on the outside, whereas the Spurs tried to have Collins be the shooter to space for Wemby inside. I think an aggressive rim-runner like Bassey would be a better compliment both for Victor and for the guards who could use a more straight-forward PnR workhorse. With guys like Sochan and Castle, getting a center into the mix isn't without risk. But I'd look into it with Jeremy's injury and Barnes being due for low minutes if not a rest game (the rest game is very unlikely while Barnes is on a 234-game streak of consecutive starts). That seems far preferable to playing Mamu with the starters.

Great points! It does seem like their roles were reversed last season.

I see the two big lineup as the ultimate goal. Either a bruiser with a good touch or a modern-day mobile big like Sarr, who has the tools to be really good imho. Once the team is good enough, they can force teams to adjust to them. Probably 2-3 years off. At the very least, another strong player 6'9" or above would help immensely in the short term.

[LeBowen]

I see the two big lineup as the ultimate goal.

And I'm back at Markkanen talk.
Pairing him with Wemby would make it impossible for opposition to have legit bigs on the floor unless it's a all-NBA level big.
Opponents are matching up their big wings with Wemby while Sochan is matched up with their centers.
With Markkanen on the floor, their big is either ran off the floor because he can't keep up on the perimeter or Markkanen matches up with a smaller wing which is really easy for him to exploit and score over.

We just need to find that 6'10 high volume 3pt shooter and it's over for the league.

[rankingtear]

I don't think even ATL feels like Zach is on a good contract right now. There's a difference between thinking he's been a bad use of cap space and that he's been a bad player. If this were 2019, I could understand that idea. But we've seen years of legit bad play now. We should be better calibrated.

I wonder if Wemby's further movement toward the perimeter means the team could revisit two-big lineups. I still don't think Collins is a great fit there, though I do think the Spurs basically had the two play the opposite roles than their comfort zone. I think Collins wants to be an inside big with Wemby on the outside, whereas the Spurs tried to have Collins be the shooter to space for Wemby inside. I think an aggressive rim-runner like Bassey would be a better compliment both for Victor and for the guards who could use a more straight-forward PnR workhorse. With guys like Sochan and Castle, getting a center into the mix isn't without risk. But I'd look into it with Jeremy's injury and Barnes being due for low minutes if not a rest game (the rest game is very unlikely while Barnes is on a 234-game streak of consecutive starts). That seems far preferable to playing Mamu with the starters.

A rim runner next to Victor is the worst. Keeps the center at the rim and the forward on Vic. Atleast Sochan provides POA defense and can attack off the dribble with a long runway.

[Chinook]

A rim runner next to Victor is the worst. Keeps the center at the rim and the forward on Vic. Atleast Sochan provides POA defense and can attack off the dribble with a long runway.

So a rim-runner doesn't stay by the rim, and neither does his man. I did the whole spacing conversation in the Sochan and thread and don't want to unpack it again here. But vertical spacing is good for an offense, and there are plenty of ways to space the floor even if a center didn't move around the perimeter also, it's far better to make the opposing center work containing a pick-and-roll over and over rather than having him stand inside the arc and closing out every once in a while. This is also ignoring that Wemby isn't in the paint most of the time and thus doesn't need it clear, that teams are going to play the PF on Wemby until/unless Victor makes them stop and that there's nothing about being a rim-runner that prevents a player from also being able to shoot.

[rankingtear]

So a rim-runner doesn't stay by the rim, and neither does his man. I did the whole spacing conversation in the Sochan and thread and don't want to unpack it again here. But vertical spacing is good for an offense, and there are plenty of ways to space the floor even if a center didn't move around the perimeter also, it's far better to make the opposing center work containing a pick-and-roll over and over rather than having him stand inside the arc and closing out every once in a while. This is also ignoring that Wemby isn't in the paint most of the time and thus doesn't need it clear, that teams are going to play the PF on Wemby until/unless Victor makes them stop and that there's nothing about being a rim-runner that prevents a player from also being able to shoot.

The problem is the team won't have the best rim runner nor pnr ballhandler. Your running a third rate pnr game for what purpose exactly. There is value on making Sochan work in the SL far more than a second big man.

[Pauleta14]

For everything Cp3 brings short term, I can't wait to see the team play at a much faster pace like they sometimes did last season.

Adding a 2nd big could prevent that unless it's a singular super mobile profile a la Lauri

[scott]

Collins has been fine this year but I wouldn't go beyond that. At the end it's a center who isn't a good defender and rebounder and who is scoring 5.6ppg in 14.1mpg right now.

Collins being overpaid has already hurt Spurs a little.
Because of his new contract, Spurs didn't have enough cap space to do the Barnes trade and they had to salary dump Devonte' Graham first. This salary dump cost Spurs a second round pick which was Pelican's 2025 pick. At the time of the trade, it was projected to be a mid second round pick but it can be better with all the injuries Pelicans have. For reference, Spurs got that Pels' pick from the Cameron Payne trade with Phoenix.

Collins is okish as a stopgap backup C. I don't like his profile to be the long term backup C. Spurs need someone who has more paint defensive presence than him, even if that player can't shoot 3's.

Spot on. Collins is being given credit for exceeding the astonishing low expectations of him set by his own terrible play. If we grade this "good Zach Collins season" out like you should attempt to grade any $17MM backup center, it still comes out a negative.

[scott]

It would be nice/refreshing to see one of Collins, Keldon, Branham or Wesley dumped well ahead of the trade deadline, and not in the typical Spurs charity case “we’re going to find you a nice home” kind of way, to send a message that we’re a serious team now and we’re not going to tolerate low performing tank commanders any longer. Branham or Wesley would be the easiest/cheapest ones to do this with, so we can start with them.

Wesley and 2 SRPs to the Wizards for the draft rights to whoever DC’s version of Juan Nunez is.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs either need to go for a rim rolling big a la Poeltl. These players are advance stats monsters and high impact players especially coming off the bench. That would give us solid rim protection for 48 minutes, but the fit next to Sochan is questionable since most of these bigs can't shoot.

Or we go for a stretch big, Naz Reid for example. John Collins might work too. The question here is, how does the rim protection look with them, since they are undersized.

[rankingtear]

There is no point in putting too much effort in fixing our bench. A lot of things in our SL is still up in the air and a ton of significant prospects coming in the next 2 drafts.

[Dverde]

Keldon at least brings toughness and grittiness on the boards. I have no issue with him staying if the Spurs are not going to get a positive asset in return. Zollins is the one I would pay to salary dump to free up that cash for the next offseason. Collins is fine, but we could easily get a similar player for half the cost. Still 100% down with trading him for Poeltl despite his horrible FT percentage. If Wemby is going to play more outside we need a banger and screener like him. Poeltl is overpaid, but the Spurs know he’ll fit in and how to use him.

[rascal]

I'd like to see the Spurs put a package together to get Jordan Hawkins.

[scott]

I think the Spurs, as currently constructed, are somewhere in that 36-42 win window, about where Houston was last year after bringing in some key vets to help guide their youth.

I'd like to see us make a couple of strategic acquisitions to see if we can make a push for the playoffs THIS YEAR. That playoff experience will pay more dividends than getting pick #12 instead of pick #18.

[spurraider21]

Spurs either need to go for a rim rolling big a la Poeltl. These players are advance stats monsters and high impact players especially coming off the bench. That would give us solid rim protection for 48 minutes, but the fit next to Sochan is questionable since most of these bigs can't shoot.

Or we go for a stretch big, Naz Reid for example. John Collins might work too. The question here is, how does the rim protection look with them, since they are undersized.

we have charles bassey at home

[Dejounte]

I think the Spurs, as currently constructed, are somewhere in that 36-42 win window, about where Houston was last year after bringing in some key vets to help guide their youth.

I'd like to see us make a couple of strategic acquisitions to see if we can make a push for the playoffs THIS YEAR. That playoff experience will pay more dividends than getting pick #12 instead of pick #18.

Now that we do have core pieces to build around, this is the correct approach.

Actually, saying “we now have those core pieces” sounds funny because we’ve had a couple of them for more than three years. Turns out sometimes you don’t know if some players are your core pieces until after a couple years. Gotta be patient.

Wemby, Sochan, Vassell, Castle. Get these guys playoff experience and watch their development accelerate.

[ambchang]

I think there’s something in Wesley, sort of a poor man’s Lindsey hunter, but that really isn’t something that we need to invest a lot in because it’s sort of stupid to put so much effort and emphasis on ultimately a role player. M
As much as I like Malaki for his ability to heat up in a hurry (or at least the potential to), he doesn’t really fit. All I want for Christmas is a 3 and D small forward. Wemby can definitely create offence, castle is likely to gain the ability to do so, Vassell can create very well for himself, he just has to learn to ready the floor for better option, I don’t think sochan has it, nor do I think he needs to, but he can be a cog in the passing offence.


Defense I think we’re in good hands. All of them has above average to all d potential.

[ace3g]

Spurs definitely need PF/C help when Wemby is on the bench.

[scott]

How much trade capital do you think we'd need to attach to swap Zollins for Big Daddy?

[Sugus]

Man, I would pay to see Wemby play alongside Jakob Poeltl. What a combination of players and completely opposite approaches to their game...

Kinda hoping they go for it tbh. Homecoming for Purtle

[Bruno]

The key question about adding a good center is: Do you want to pair Wemby with a Center?

Wemby paired with Collins and with Gobert didn't work. One might say Collins sucks and FIBA basketball isn't NBA. Both arguments are legit but there are no signs that Wemby with a traditional center is a good idea.

If you don't pair Wemby with a center, the backup C player for Spurs will play about 15mpg in regular season and 10mpg in future playoffs. Investing too much for that kind of role would be a mistake. I wouldn't use a lottery pick and/or pay a player more than $10M per year to play these 10 or 15 mpg.

It's looking more and more that Collins isn't the answer for that spot. If there is a trade opportunity with him, Spurs shouldn't hesitate. What seems more likely is that no teams will be interested in him. In that case, Spurs should just let his contract expire. With no luxury tax issues, there is no need to spend assets to salary dump him. And it would be nice if Johnson/Pop go with Bassey as backup C for a stretch of games to properly evaluate him. If he can stay healthy, he might be good enough to be a the long term answer at that role.

[jesterbobman]

For Poeltl, I think the Chicago pick and Collins would be the start of conversation. Jak doesn't provide a ton of surplus value relative to his contract, but Zach is well below. Probably depends on how much Toronto wants to gamble on certain pick conveying vs the protected pick that can become nothing. Probably ways around that in a 3 team construction where a team with sure assets (Brooklyn?) is willing to gamble for a better asset. We're probably not good enough for that to be sensible - might as well throw Bassey out there.

I think Backup Centre is sneaky important, seeing how Philly / Denver have, for years been dominant with stars on court and let down without them, with some of the Philly series (e.g vs Toronto in 2019) being lost on the weakness of the backup 5. I think it's probably 1500 minutes a year (15 mpg in 70 games that Wemby plays, 30mpg in the other 12). Collins has his deal for the next year and a half, so you're paying, after that I think you're looking for someone at about the level of a MLE player, and, someone who can be a genuine rim protector and space eater inside - I think replicating a bit of the defence is more valuable than keeping the offense as a 5 out system, especially if you're playing a bunch of wings rather than a two big lineup.

[RC_Drunkford]

I‘m more for signing a combo big who can play C and PF like Naz Reid. Like Bruno said it really doesn‘t make sense to tie up big money for a back up C who plays 15 min every night.

[rankingtear]

For Poeltl, I think the Chicago pick and Collins would be the start of conversation. Jak doesn't provide a ton of surplus value relative to his contract, but Zach is well below. Probably depends on how much Toronto wants to gamble on certain pick conveying vs the protected pick that can become nothing. Probably ways around that in a 3 team construction where a team with sure assets (Brooklyn?) is willing to gamble for a better asset. We're probably not good enough for that to be sensible - might as well throw Bassey out there.

I think Backup Centre is sneaky important, seeing how Philly / Denver have, for years been dominant with stars on court and let down without them, with some of the Philly series (e.g vs Toronto in 2019) being lost on the weakness of the backup 5. I think it's probably 1500 minutes a year (15 mpg in 70 games that Wemby plays, 30mpg in the other 12). Collins has his deal for the next year and a half, so you're paying, after that I think you're looking for someone at about the level of a MLE player, and, someone who can be a genuine rim protector and space eater inside - I think replicating a bit of the defence is more valuable than keeping the offense as a 5 out system, especially if you're playing a bunch of wings rather than a two big lineup.

I would say once we start paying the important players there is no MLE left to pay a sneaky important player.