CIA staged mock executions

[Wild Cobra]

To me, that's like saying you can't prosecure child molestation unless you specifically list the acts in the bill against it.

No, there are plenty of definitions for child molestation, and a child is not considered at the age of consent. We are talking about age of consent terrorists, aren't we?

[coyotes_geek]

That's already happened... see extradition...

But the difference is that we take active steps to PREVENT those conditions in jail. Guards/jailors aren't the ones performing the torture.

So despite our steps to prevent convicts from being subjected to physical abuse, what percentage of the convict population do you think has been physically abused?

You may say it's not torture, but the majority of medical professionals and legal scholars say it is. Who should we side with?

Medical professionals and legal scholars also say it's wrong to take a life. Do we need to try every soldier who has killed someone in battle or every citizen who shot someone in self defense for murder? Or do the cir stances play a role in our assessment of whether or not the action was justified?

Your false equivalence is the same as saying, "Well, I think that child molestation is bad, but NAMBLA says its ok. How will we ever determine what's right and moral?"

Huh? If there's a false equivalence here it's you trying to equate underage children to terror suspects.

[SpurNation]

The ones not being threatened with imminent death.

How is a person "witnessing" a mock execution being threatened with imminent death?

[ChumpDumper]

How is a person "witnessing" a mock execution being threatened with imminent death?

The implicit or explicit intimation that the same will happen to that person if he doesn't cooperate. Otherwise, why would it even be done?

Don't be disingenuous.

[DarrinS]

Since the left now has absolute power, why don't they just dismantle the CIA.


They've always hated it.

[LnGrrrR]

extradition, or do you mean rendition?

Extradition and rendition are two entirely different things, and often confused (purposely by the left.)

Technically, I was referring to "extraordinary rendition".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

[LnGrrrR]

No, there are plenty of definitions for child molestation, and a child is not considered at the age of consent. We are talking about age of consent terrorists, aren't we?

There's plenty of definitions of torture as well, and all of them that have been put forth by recognized medical facilities include mock execution as torture.

[LnGrrrR]

Medical professionals and legal scholars also say it's wrong to take a life. Do we need to try every soldier who has killed someone in battle or every citizen who shot someone in self defense for murder? Or do the cir stances play a role in our assessment of whether or not the action was justified?

Are there not laws that rigidly condone a soldier's actions? Just because a soldier can take a life in battle, does that mean he can take one at home? Of course not. Yes, cir stances DO play a role in our assessment in whether or not an action is justified. But that's usually reserved for JURIES to decide, not laws.

Set the law as being against torture, and then, if a person if found to have gone over that line, send them to court, and let a jury determine if the action was justified.

Edit: Additionally, we haven't signed any treaties saying we won't kill anyone. We HAVE signed treaties saying we won't torture.

[Wild Cobra]

Technically, I was referring to "extraordinary rendition".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

I though so, but do you have any examples? As far as I know, all cases said to be that turned out to be deportation. The fist one that comes to mind is the Canadian citizen. He became a naturalized Canadian, but committed crimes in his home country, and was deported to there by the USA rather than sent to Canada.

That's why I said liberal intentionally confuse the two.

[Wild Cobra]

There's plenty of definitions of torture as well, and all of them that have been put forth by recognized medical facilities include mock execution as torture.

That's the first I heard. Can you source that?

[LnGrrrR]

I though so, but do you have any examples? As far as I know, all cases said to be that turned out to be deportation. The fist one that comes to mind is the Canadian citizen. He became a naturalized Canadian, but committed crimes in his home country, and was deported to there by the USA rather than sent to Canada.

That's why I said liberal intentionally confuse the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_El-Masri

[SpurNation]

The implicit or explicit intimation that the same will happen to that person if he doesn't cooperate. Otherwise, why would it even be done?

Don't be disingenuous.

Now we're splitting hairs and bringing into account that we can assume what an individual will think.

What happened to not assuming and basing arguement on the letter of the law and not the interpretation of the law.

You know I consder myself neither Liberal or Conservative though I tend to have more conservative values with my day to day life.

But let me share a story with you that reminds me of almost every Liberal I have a discussion with.

The questioned was asked one day...Why are Fire Engines Red

A predominant Liberal answered:

There are 12" in a ruler and Queen Elisabeth is a ruler. Queen Elisabeth is also one of the largest ships to sail the seven seas. The seas have fish...the fish have fins...the Fins have been fighting the Russians for years and Russia's color of their flag is red.

[ChumpDumper]

Now we're splitting hairs and bringing into account that we can assume what an individual will think.

So what is the purpose of staging a mock execution?

Don't be disingenuous.

[LnGrrrR]

That's the first I heard. Can you source that?

Find me a medical professional group that DOESN'T include mock execution as torture...

http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU...ts/198506.aspx

And as listed above, the definition for torture under the Treaty. Most definitions list torture as "cruel, unusual and inhumane" punishment, because it's nigh impossible to list all the possible things that might fall under the term "torture" in specific details.

[Wild Cobra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_El-Masri

I forgot about that example. Again however, he was not a German born citizen. Now I agree the CIA was wrong to kidnap him in Germany. Still, how many people are locked up all the time who are innocent. No way to stop it. Accidents happen. It would be nice to know if his allegations are true or not, and I hope he was given some kind of money for loss of time, work, etc.

Another Tenent blunder it looks like to me...

[LnGrrrR]

Now we're splitting hairs and bringing into account that we can assume what an individual will think.

What happened to not assuming and basing arguement on the letter of the law and not the interpretation of the law.

You know I consder myself neither Liberal or Conservative though I tend to have more conservative values with my day to day life.

But let me share a story with you that reminds me of almost every Liberal I have a discussion with.

The questioned was asked one day...Why are Fire Engines Red

A predominant Liberal answered:

There are 12" in a ruler and Queen Elisabeth is a ruler. Queen Elisabeth is also one of the largest ships to sail the seven seas. The seas have fish...the fish have fins...the Fins have been fighting the Russians for years and Russia's color of their flag is red.

Thanks for the non-sequitur.

Tell me, is it possible to list EXACTLY what torture is? If not, how should we write a provision against torture? Shouldn't we favor the side of being more humane, rather than less?

[LnGrrrR]

I forgot about that example. Again however, he was not a German born citizen. Now I agree the CIA was wrong to kidnap him in Germany. Still, how many people are locked up all the time who are innocent. No way to stop it. Accidents happen. It would be nice to know if his allegations are true or not, and I hope he was given some kind of money for loss of time, work, etc.

Another Tenent blunder it looks like to me...

Sure, accidents happen. But it's good to recognize when they do, and not just blow it off as "Whoops". It's one thing to be locked up, it's another to be kidnapped, flown off to a foreign country, and interrogated.

[SpurNation]

So what is the purpose of staging a mock execution?

To see if it will generate information.

And the last time I looked...being disingenuous isn't against the law either.

You are "opinionating" it should be against the law because of your "interpretation" of the law. But it's not against the law in how the law is written...prior to 2004 or after it's mandation.

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Where does it say witnessing a mock execution of another as inflicting pain or suffering to the person witnessing the act?

Being there consequently will place you in an inherent or incidental situation that may occur to somebody else.

[ChumpDumper]

Blah, blah, blah.

You didn't answer the question.

What is the purpose of staging a mock execution?

How would it gain information? Why would it compel someone to cooperate as opposed to other methods?

[LnGrrrR]

So, are you trying to argue that a mock execution arises from, is inherent to, or is incidental to lawful sanctions? REALLY? That's what you're trying to argue?

[ChumpDumper]

So, are you trying to argue that a mock execution arises from, is inherent to, or is incidental to lawful sanctions? REALLY? That's what you're trying to argue?

Yes, he's trying to say there is a law that allows for prisoners of war to witness mock executions of other prisoners or have themselves subjected to mock executions.

[SpurNation]

Blah Blah Blah???

Are you really that adolescent in your older age?

If you want to erase my posts and replace them with your own "interpretation" of my posts and quote them as my words then their is no sense in discussing this with an adolescent mind.

I thought I was having a discussion with an adult until you did that.

[ChumpDumper]

Are you really that adolescent in your older age?

If you want to erase my posts and replace them with your own "interpretation" of my posts and quote them as my words then their is no sense in discussing this with an adolescent mind.

I thought I was having a discussion with an adult until you did that.

Anything to avoid answering the questions, eh?

I have little tolerance for your kind of stalling and misdirection ("Oh, that reminds me of an amusing anecdote that might take up some time....").

What is the purpose of staging a mock execution?

How would it gain information? Why would it compel someone to cooperate as opposed to other methods?

[SpurNation]

So, are you trying to argue that a mock execution arises from, is inherent to, or is incidental to lawful sanctions? REALLY? That's what you're trying to argue?

Are you saying if I witnessed a crime (or mock crime) I am perpetrated in that act or just a witness?

[SpurNation]

What is the purpose of staging a mock execution?

How would it gain information? Why would it compel someone to cooperate as opposed to other methods?

Your still asking questions that pertain to opinion and not law. Your opinion is what you believe and mine (and as I gather I'm not the only one) is my opinion.

You choose to question me...I give answers...You don't like the answer...you defend your own... I ask you questions...it's a revolving door.

I beleive it is not against the law to stage mock executions...you do.

As it stands now....it's both just a matter of opinion.