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  1. #151
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Are there still slaves out there in America? Why don't the whiny blacks just go to Harvard and choose not to live in ghettos?

    Every generation is a reset. Just because your ancestors endured slavery doesn't mean it should affect your current cir stance. We have immigrants from every corner of the world, and indentured servitude aside, some of those immigrants have suffered as much or more than African slaves of the 19th century. But nobody, and I mean nobody has made a freakin' living like the blacks have over victim status...

    The Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Cambodians, and Chinese are the most recent escapees of intolerable oppression. Yet, they've managed to assimilate and build successful lives (for the most part) in America.

    Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.
    exactly!

  2. #152
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    Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.
    And America lived up to that responsibility by abolishing slavery and working towards the end of racial discrimination and giving all people access to, and rights under, the same U.S. Cons ution. What more do you want? Why should White (or non-black) America still be making reparations, excuses, and apologies for a wrong they had absolutely nothing to do with; and, to a people (Blacks), less than 15% of whom, are even remotely related to anyone who was ever an American slave, and among whom 0% were ever slaves?

    In fact, there are more African immigrants in this country now, that came from countries where slavery is practiced by black Africans -- more recently than did America and, in fact, some currently -- than there are Black Americans that are the descendants of anyone remotely affected by the American slave trade.

    Hey, here's a trivia question for you.

    What did freed slaves do when taken back to Africa, given assistance in setting up their own government and given a country, Liberia?

    That's right, enslaved people...

    And, just because a person was forcibly removed from Africa, put on a slave ship, and brought to America to be sold as a slave doesn't mean they were treated worse than indentured servants.

    Some estimates place the percentage of murdered indentured servants at 50%. They were similarly taken into bondage in lieu of a debt owed by themselves or family, put on ships and forced to work to repay that debt. Many were killed and punished more harshly than slaves.

    In fact, if you'd read your history a little more, you'd realize that indentured servitude was the pre-cursor to slavery in American and, it wasn't until "masters" had killed most of the servants or ran them off by their oppressive punishments that American business began looking for an alternative -- slavery.

    Slave were considered property and cared for as such. Indentured servants were considered expendable commodities and, similarly treated.

    Indentured servitude wasn't any different than being owned. But, that argument aside, slaves (until the abolitionist movement gained steam) were, for the most part, well treated because crippled, sick, and timid slaves were of little use.

    I will concede that slavery, as a practice, is much, much, much less palatable than indentured servitude because it involves actually seeing another human being as something less than human. However, the results of the two practices were not that different and, in the case of indentured servitude -- which, by the way, lasted much longer in America (and in some cases still exists), than did slavery -- the ill-treatment of servants was incessant from the beginning to the end.

    Indentured servants who escaped were tracked down and killed just like slaves. And, just like the murderers of slaves, those that killed indentured servants went largely unpunished.

    Sorry, blacks today -- all of which never suffered under slavery and the vast majority of whom do not descend from slaves but, instead, probably descend from slave holders in other countries -- need to shut up and quit expecting American to continue the pity party.

  3. #153
    JekkaIsGoddess Jekka's Avatar
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    First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

    The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

    "A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

    "[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.
    If you're willing to look at black people as one people - as is being generalized in this thread, then you need to be willing to look at whites as one people as well - and as people oppressing people, the "white man" is sitting with the power. If African Americans are still bitter about the fact that this government has never so much as apologized for what they allowed - which I think is valid - then what's the harm in at least making the effort to make an honest apology - to move a step in the direction of righting what was wrong.

    As for a more even playing field, I think that school funding goes a long way into that - giving poor neighborhoods better educational funding to build a solid foundation, to make them want to stay in school and go on to higher education, and maybe it will be more apparent then that continuing education is more lucrative in the long run - in which case it will be easier to encourage and afford for their children to go to college, too. As a whole, they are so far below the privileged hegemony that it's going to be really difficult to get out of the hole without a hand from someone on the surface.

    I personally think that funds could be reallocated from other programs to do this, although with the current administration I don't see that happening, considering they've already killed so many programs that aren't defense related.

    so, then you agree.. it is the black man's fault he sold them to us in the first place...
    Why yes, that's exactly what I said. Thank you for that accurate interpretation. I feel so much better now that you really seem to be willing and able to understand my point of view without your own getting in the way. Whew.

    i have taken courses on this already. saying sorry is not going to do anything for the black men now.. they could care less. it is not going to make them want to get a job instead of living a life of crime.

    does not everyone have a chance to succeed in life now? everyone does... that is why immigrants from all over the world risk their lives trying come to the united states... maybe the black male community aged 20-30 is the only group that doesn't realize it...
    I've taken courses on it, too - several in American Studies, US history and African history. Saying sorry won't make everything okay, but it should at least be said. Maybe the black male community aged 20-30 needs some support (before you jump on me, NOT just financially) from Americans that do nothing but pin blame on them. Yes, everyone does in theory have the opportunity to succeed here, but if you're starting at the bottom its almost impossible to do it alone.

  4. #154
    JekkaIsGoddess Jekka's Avatar
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    Why should White (or non-black) America still be making reparations, excuses, and apologies for a wrong they had absolutely nothing to do with; and, to a people (Blacks), less than 15% of whom, are even remotely related to anyone who was ever an American slave, and among whom 0% were ever slaves?

    In fact, there are more African immigrants in this country now, that came from countries where slavery is practiced by black Africans -- more recently than did America and, in fact, some currently -- than there are Black Americans that are the descendants of anyone remotely affected by the American slave trade.
    I'd like to see your source for that information.

  5. #155
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
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    If African Americans are still bitter about the fact that this government has never so much as apologized for what they allowed - which I think is valid - then what's the harm in at least making the effort to make an honest apology - to move a step in the direction of righting what was wrong.
    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but it's a safe bet that you won't see an apology or acknowledgement on this matter which satisfies you, and as time marches on, the likelihood will further diminish.

  6. #156
    JekkaIsGoddess Jekka's Avatar
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    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but it's a safe bet that you won't see an apology or acknowledgement on this matter which satisfies you, and as time marches on, the likelihood will further diminish.
    The more history you study along with current political situations the more jaded you get - I know that the likelihood of an apology is depressingly slim. By the same token though, if you let it go, then there's no chance of it ever happening.

  7. #157
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    bottom line is: [b}The Locus of Control[/b] is a 13 item questionnaire developed by Rotter (1966). It measures generalized expectancies for internal versus external control of reinforcement. People with an internal locus of control believe that their own actions determine the rewards that they obtain, while those with an external locus of control believe that their own behavior doesn't matter much and that rewards in life are generally outside of their control. Scores range from 0 to 13. A low score indicates an internal control while a high score indicates external control.

    take the test to see which one you are.

    http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/L...rol-intro.html

  8. #158
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    I'm going to play devil's advocate (so what else is new). Explain to me why a group of people (today's government) should apologise now for something that officially ended 140 years ago and which they had nothing to do with? I'm not opposed to an apology, by the way. The best answer anybody can give me to this question is, "Well, they just should."

  9. #159
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Because they still reap the direct benefits from the action, thats why.

  10. #160
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    My internal locus of control score- 4

  11. #161
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    Because they still reap the direct benefits from the action, thats why.
    Don't you also, by living here?

  12. #162
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Don't you also, by living here?
    Uh, no? I can not see a direct way on how I benefit from what happend considering my family immigrated here during the civil rights movement. I am not a member of a family who's fortune was made on the backs of blacks. Nor am I a member of a family who's race gave them an advantage over blacks. Actually, I am a descendent of freed slaves, so you know, I don't think so.

    However, even if I did, the government represents me just as much as anyone else, and an apology from my government would be an apology from me.

  13. #163
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
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    What I see here are demands and accusations lacking persuasion, met with a resounding no (rinse, repeat).

  14. #164
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    What I see here are demands and accusations lacking persuasion, met with a resounding no (rinse, repeat).
    Well, it's an internet forum. This isn't a burning issue that is on the forefront and actualy has a chance to make an impact. It's beyond that, and I really have very little hope for it ever to change.

    African Americans will pull themselves up by their bootstraps, eventually. And when it happens, people like Clandestino and Yoni will claim they were right while missing the entirety of the point that was made.

    Anyone remember when Yoni called me antisemetic?

  15. #165
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Well, it's an internet forum. This isn't a burning issue that is on the forefront and actualy has a chance to make an impact. It's beyond that, and I really have very little hope for it ever to change.

    African Americans will pull themselves up by their bootstraps, eventually. And when it happens, people like Clandestino and Yoni will claim they were right while missing the entirety of the point that was made.
    That is all we ask for... People to pull themselves up!

  16. #166
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    Uh, no? I can not see a direct way on how I benefit from what happend considering my family immigrated here during the civil rights movement. I am not a member of a family who's fortune was made on the backs of blacks. Nor am I a member of a family who's race gave them an advantage over blacks. Actually, I am a descendent of freed slaves, so you know, I don't think so.

    However, even if I did, the government represents me just as much as anyone else, and an apology from my government would be an apology from me.
    This country is what it is because of its history. Of course, you don't believe that with a different history it would be exactly the same as it is now. So, by living in this country with almost all of the freedoms you could possibly ask for, you're not benefitting from its history like all of us bad white people?

  17. #167
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    And no, you never said white people are bad. But you are coming through that way to some.

  18. #168
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    I'd like to see your source for that information.
    Unlike his posts, which are mostly stolen or plagerized material, he probably actually did something creative here: he made them up.

  19. #169
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    This country is what it is because of its history. Of course, you don't believe that with a different history it would be exactly the same as it is now. So, by living in this country with almost all of the freedoms you could possibly ask for, you're not benefitting from its history like all of us bad white people?
    !!!

    #1 The US grants me no freedoms. Those freedoms are mine. I need not ask anyone for them.
    #2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.
    #3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.

  20. #170
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    And no, you never said white people are bad. But you are coming through that way to some.
    At this point Des, I couldn't care less. I date a cracka. My best friend is a damn whitey. I'm not going to change my beliefs in order to make myself seem more anglo friendly.

  21. #171
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    BTW, and I will say this, historicly, white people have been VERY VERY bad.

  22. #172
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    !!!

    #1 The US grants me no freedoms. Those freedoms are mine. I need not ask anyone for them.
    #2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.
    #3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.
    So then, out of curiousity, why do you choose to live in a place that has hurt you more than it has helped you?

  23. #173
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    #3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.

  24. #174
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    BTW, and I will say this, historicly, white people have been VERY VERY bad.
    Historically, individually, black people have been bad to me. I'm not asking for an apology from the entire race, and I hold the race no ill will.

  25. #175
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    So then, out of curiousity, why do you choose to live in a place that has hurt you more than it has helped you?
    Maybe I want to help change it Des? Maybe I don't plan on living here forever?

    Who knows, but ask Clandestion for the link to my life story, I'm sure youll find the answer somewhere in there.

    I have a question for you, however.

    Do you believe the United States is the best place in the world to live?

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