Guarantee a win tonight.

[ElNono]

Even the ESPN announcers during the game commented how Bonner was getting O rebounds and all around being a pest on the glass. You just totally discount this and even say he was effective, then randomly act like I'm comparing him to Horry... not sure where this came from.

3 RPG career average... enough said.

What I'm trying to prove is that Bonner doesn't have to be draining threes for him to be ineffective.

Completely agree.

He can still be an effective piece when he's not hitting threes. I have backed this up with stats.

??? He's worthless when not hitting. I can back that up with stats too.

Funny how people say Bonner gets murdered by Green, how much of a liability Bonner was, yet he was the only Spur who posted a positive +/- against Boston. Guess he just got owned though, right?

Completely unrelated. Green murdered him. Unless you missed the game.
Rondo murdered him. Unless you missed the game. Plus/minus just tells me he was on the floor most of the time with TD/TP/Manu...

Don't know where you thought you say me say Bonner>Tiago either. Before Tim got injured, I was very down on Splitter, but Tiago has been playing great since then and he should, without a doubt, be the first big off the bench and Bonner should be the 4th big playing 15-20 minutes.

There's no 20 mins for Bonner if Splitter moves ahead of him. So, I much rather Splitter get 15-20, and Bonner whatever is left.

[chazley]

No, they actually play 4 on 6. You can't underestimate the opposing team running their offense through Matty.


Pretty much. Watching by the sidelines when the rest of the team does the heavy lifting is indeed something grandma could do. Heck, grandma might luck out and hit a wide open 3. Then the other team would actually have to guard grandma.



I don't. It's just that the bad outdoes the good on a consistent basis.
His good is that he tries hard. He's just not a good player.



I try hard to be a NBA player too, but I don't get to be one. Trying hard means jack when you don't produce any results.

The rest of your banter really means you don't watch the games: Bonner is a mediocre defender. To the point of teams blatantly going at him possession after possession. His 3 rpg for a 6'10 guy is among the worst in the league. He doesn't stretch anything because when his shot if off, like it's been for the past dozen games, he's not worth guarding. When his shot is on, he's just not a volume shooter that actually is worth guarding with a big man (any midget running at him will make him put the ball on the floor). Furthermore, even when scorching hot, he's only going to put less than 10ppg on you.

In other words, if you're going to defend Bonner, at least look at him play.

First off, I like Bonner as our 4th big man. People think I want him to star on this team, but I don't. Pop plays him as our 3rd big man though, so it's harder to defend him. However, I still think he is an effective 3rd big.

If you look at your post, only the last 2nd to last paragraph has any sort of opinion in it. Again, I will never say Bonner is an above-average rebounder. It is his biggest weakness, I've never denied it. However, when you're talking about a bench big man, they're going to have glaring weaknesses. It's why they come off the bench.

When he's scorching hot, his value goes beyond simple PPG. It's getting annoying to keep repeating this, but Bonner is our main screen setter when he's in the game because of his pick-and-pop ability. When he's on fire, the lanes it opens up are incredible because suddenly they've got a big switched onto the guards and a small guy on Bonner. Pick your poison. The thing is, +/- is one of the only things that measures Bonner's importance to our offense in particular, because he does things for our offense that simply cannot be measured by stats.

[chazley]

3 RPG career average... enough said.



Completely agree.



??? He's worthless when not hitting. I can back that up with stats too.



Completely unrelated. Green murdered him. Unless you missed the game.
Rondo murdered him. Unless you missed the game. Plus/minus just tells me he was on the floor most of the time with TD/TP/Manu...



There's no 20 mins for Bonner if Splitter moves ahead of him. So, I much rather Splitter get 15-20, and Bonner whatever is left.

Oh god, you just love me owning you don't you?

Again, I'm not gonna defend his rebounding. However, he does give effort. It's not like he doesn't try.

Obviously mispoke about ineffective.

Go ahead and back it up then. Empty threats mean nothing to me.

TD/Manu/Tony all has negative +/- in the game. Not sure what your point is... if they had carried Bonner and he was a liability their +/- would've been higher than his...

Perfect playoff minutes breakdown IMO:

Tim: 35 minutes
McDyess: 25 minutes
Tiago: 20 minutes
Bonner: 15-20 minutes, varying on big foul trouble.

There's minutes there.

[chazley]

Alright, I went back and looked at some stats... I'll let you have it though.

[Agloco]

If I lose, I won't post on Spurstalk til playoffs.

[Wilford Brimley]

Chazley just stfu and leave. Not one of your points can be taken seriously and frankly, you're just ing annoying. If I saw you in real life I'd hit you with a hammer. You piss me off, go away.

[chazley]

19-15 when Bonner hits 1 or less three.

25-3 when he hits 2 or more threes.

I gathered these very quickly, so the records might be a little off.

This stats are only meaningful if you want to argue that Bonner is an integral part of the Spurs though. These stats can also be directly correlated to minutes played, because when Bonner gets more than his average minutes he gets in a rhythm and has more chances to hit threes, therefore our team has a better record.

[chazley]

Chazley just stfu and leave. Not one of your points can be taken seriously and frankly, you're just ing annoying. If I saw you in real life I'd hit you with a hammer. You piss me off, go away.

You're the one posting in my thread. You're free to leave and never come back, I don't blame you for posting your opinion on what we're discussing because, as you know, I'd crush you.

[Wilford Brimley]

You're the one posting in my thread. You're free to leave and never come back, I don't blame you for posting your opinion on what we're discussing because, as you know, I'd crush you.

Your ty thread is constantly atop this page--and yes, I know I'm doing my part to help you with that now--but it needs to go away.

I'm not lying. If I saw you in real life I'd bludgeon your skull with my new DeWalt hammer.

gtfo

[ElNono]

Well I posted 5 different advanced stats for Bonner in my last thread, so let's see those 10 advanced stats you've got up your sleeve.

Defensive Win Shares (Estimated number of games provided by the player due to his defense):

Regular Season:
Bonner 09-10: 1.6
Bonner 10-11: 1.3
Blair 09-10: 2.8
Blair 10-11: 3.0
Dice 09-10: 2.6
Dice 10-11: 1.9

Playoffs:
Bonner 08-09: 0.1
Bonner 09-10: 0.1
Blair 08-09: N/A
Blair 09-10: 0.2
Dice 08-09: 0.1 (Pistons)
Dice 09-10: 0.3

Defensive Rating (Estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions):

Regular Season:
Bonner 09-10: 104
Bonner 10-11: 108
Blair 09-10: 101
Blair 10-11: 100
Dice 09-10: 103
Dice 10-11: 103

Playoffs:
Bonner 08-09: 112
Bonner 09-10: 112
Blair 08-09: N/A
Blair 09-10: 101
Dice 08-09: 109 (Pistons)
Dice 09-10: 109

Total Rebound Percentage (Estimate of the percentage of available rebounds grabbed by the player when he was on the floor):

Regular Season:
Bonner 09-10: 10.8
Bonner 10-11: 9.3
Blair 09-10: 20.6
Blair 10-11: 18.7
Dice 09-10: 16.5
Dice 10-11: 16.4

Playoffs:
Bonner 08-09: 9.7
Bonner 09-10: 10.6
Blair 08-09: N/A
Blair 09-10: 24.5
Dice 08-09: 16.3 (Pistons)
Dice 09-10: 15.7

------------------------------

Worse, or tied worse, in EVERY defensive category. At times, significantly worse. And those are actual individual stats. Harvested from basketball-reference.com

[ElNono]

Oh god, you just love owning me you don't you?

You're just too easy, chaz...

You should stick to RMJ, who is currently a borderline NBA player... we all know how this ends.

[chazley]

I've also shown that 4 of our top 5 defensive lineups include Bonner. You're trying to base your argument entirely around his defense, when it's blatantly obvious to any person who has watched a Spurs game knows his major contribution is on the offensive side.

Why don't you post those numbers?

[cherylsteele]

Even the ESPN announcers during the game commented how Bonner was getting O rebounds and all around being a pest on the glass. You just totally discount this and even say he was effective, then randomly act like I'm comparing him to Horry... not sure where this came from.

What I'm trying to prove is that Bonner doesn't have to be draining threes for him to be ineffective. He can still be an effective piece when he's not hitting threes. I have backed this up with stats.
Funny how people say Bonner gets murdered by Green, how much of a liability Bonner was, yet he was the only Spur who posted a positive +/- against Boston. Guess he just got owned though, right?

Don't know where you thought you say me say Bonner>Tiago either. Before Tim got injured, I was very down on Splitter, but Tiago has been playing great since then and he should, without a doubt, be the first big off the bench and Bonner should be the 4th big playing 15-20 minutes.

So...is he ineffective or effective in your world?

At least Horry produced when the game was on the line, I compared him to Horry because Horry always started off slow then became solid after the ASB, Bonne is the total opposite. You keep implying that Boner is the next great thing since sliced bread. Tim has had horrible +/- games but 9/10 produces when the game is on the line.

Bonner just didn't owned he got steamrolled, he needs to be selling sodas in the stands right now, that is where he would most effective.

Bonner playing 15-20 min, that 15-20 minutes too many, you keep bringing up this +/- stat, I look at the final score and why we got there. He shouldn't even play in garbage time, I would even think twice if all our bigs got into foul trouble or had injuriy issues, I'd rather see small at the moment than Bonner even close to being on the court.

The announcers said just the opposite about Bonner's rebounding effort, you obviously didn't watch the game. There is more to the game than stats, you sound like one of those fantasy Bball players.

[chazley]

So...is he ineffective or effective in your world?

At least Horry produced when the game was on the line, I compared him to Horry because Horry always started off slow then became solid after the ASB, Bonne is the total opposite. You keep implying that Boner is the next great thing since sliced bread. Tim has had horrible +/- games but 9/10 produces when the game is on the line.

Bonner just didn't owned he got steamrolled, he needs to be selling sodas in the stands right now, that is where he would most effective.

Bonner playing 15-20 min, that 15-20 minutes too many, you keep bringing up this +/- stat, I look at the final score and why we got there. He shouldn't even play in garbage time, I would even think twice if all our bigs got into foul trouble or had injuriy issues, I'd rather see small at the moment than Bonner even close to being on the court.

The announcers said just the opposite about Bonner's rebounding effort, you obviously didn't watch the game. There is more to the game than stats, you sound like one of those fantasy Bball players.

What I got from the first paragraph... "I compare Bonner and Horry because they're complete opposites"

Bonner gets owned/steamrolled... yet our team is +10.6 per 48 minutes when he's on the court. Thanks for your critical analysis.

I didn't get to watch the Houston game, I unfortunately have to care for a sick grandma by myself and was busy. This forum just gives me something to do.

Advanced stats have nothing to do with fantasy basketball. They simply account for more than just the basic stats, which fantasy uses.

[chazley]

Also, Tim RARELY has bad +/- games.

[ElNono]

I've also shown that 4 of our top 5 defensive lineups include Bonner. You're trying to base your argument entirely around his defense, when it's blatantly obvious to any person who has watched a Spurs game knows his major contribution is on the offensive side.

Why don't you post those numbers?

Because you keep arguing his defense, and how he can be effective when he's not scoring the 3...

Now that we dispelled that myth, hopefully we can put that argument to rest...

As far as his offense, I stick to my argument. As an 'amazing' shooter he is, he is no more than a < 10 ppg player. He also doesn't require another big to pay attention to him, which renders the whole 'stretching the floor' moot.
You still haven't countered those arguments, and that's because you simply cannot.

During the playoffs, his Offensive Winning Shares were -0.2(!) for 08-09 and 0.1 for 09-10 (basically non-existent contribution to winning).

Want more stats? There's more. Let's take PER, an advanced stat that actually benefit offensive players. Matty's PER this season is 13.1. The league average is 15. When I tell you he's a below average player, the numbers back it up.

[ElNono]

My work is done here. I posted 15 individual advances stats, and contrasted them against both the young sop re that only has one season under his belt, and the seasoned vet. Both of which produce much more than Matty.

You can keep clinging on your 5 +/- lineups that have nothing to do with individual performance. At this point the only one you're trying to convince is yourself.

And do me a favor chaz, actually get your eyes out of the books and watch the games. It can't be more evident.

[chazley]

lol PER is obviously not going to benefit a player who's sole benefit offensively is shooting threes. Are you seriously going to use that in your argument?

What do you mean I haven't answered your argument about him being no more than a <10 ppg player? I've already laid out why that is irrelevant.

And yes, a big DOES have to defend Bonner. I don't know what magical fairy world you live in where the PF on every team just sags off Bonner every possession, but if you're gonna argue that I big doesn't have to come out and guard Bonner, then there's no hope.

I've also stated why those playoff win shares/his ty shooting % mean nothing.

HES A ROLE PLAYER.

In 08-09, our roster was decimated and our second best player was a gimpy Tim, and our third best was (gulp) RMJ.

In 09-10, he actually had a good Pheonix series after sucking against the Mavs, when Tony was still recovering from injury.

He relies on our other players to get his shot and cannot create on his own. I'm not gonna argue otherwise. But there's nothing wrong with that when you have a healthy Tim/Manu/Tony on your team, like we did all season until March. He was balling until we started getting injured.

You posted 2 or 3 advanced stats... where did you get 15 from? I've posted way more advanced stats than you have in my other threads, and in fact Chieflion just tried to make an anti-bonner post that backed me up, it was funny to read.

Please, clarify what argument you thought I didn't answer. I don't shy away from anything.

[Sense]

lol PER is obviously not going to benefit a player who's sole benefit offensively is shooting threes. Are you seriously going to use that in your argument?

What do you mean I haven't answered your argument about him being no more than a <10 ppg player? I've already laid out why that is irrelevant.

And yes, a big DOES have to defend Bonner. I don't know what magical fairy world you live in where the PF on every team just sags off Bonner every possession, but if you're gonna argue that I big doesn't have to come out and guard Bonner, then there's no hope.

I've also stated why those playoff win shares/his ty shooting % mean nothing.

HES A ROLE PLAYER.

In 08-09, our roster was decimated and our second best player was a gimpy Tim, and our third best was (gulp) RMJ.

In 09-10, he actually had a good Pheonix series after sucking against the Mavs, when Tony was still recovering from injury.

He relies on our other players to get his shot and cannot create on his own. I'm not gonna argue otherwise. But there's nothing wrong with that when you have a healthy Tim/Manu/Tony on your team, like we did all season until March. He was balling until we started getting injured.

You posted 2 or 3 advanced stats... where did you get 15 from? I've posted way more advanced stats than you have in my other threads, and in fact Chieflion just tried to make an anti-bonner post that backed me up, it was funny to read.

Please, clarify what argument you thought I didn't answer. I don't shy away from anything.

the you still doing here.. do you remember your first post on this thread?

[cherylsteele]

What I got from the first paragraph... "I compare Bonner and Horry because they're complete opposites"

Bonner gets owned/steamrolled... yet our team is +10.6 per 48 minutes when he's on the court. Thanks for your critical analysis.

I didn't get to watch the Houston game, I unfortunately have to care for a sick grandma by myself and was busy. This forum just gives me something to do.

Advanced stats have nothing to do with fantasy basketball. They simply account for more than just the basic stats, which fantasy uses.

But he is the reason we are losing these games because he is not producing. That +/- stat is for the whole team while his playing. You are the only one on this whole forum not seeing this.

You didn't watch any of the other games either.

[cherylsteele]

Wasn't counting on the Celtics hitting 20 in a row from 16-20 feet.

See you guys in mid-April.

and a big lol to all the haters. Must be nice, you get to keep spewing your garbage without anyone knowledgeable coming in to put all of you in your place.

But I am a man of my word.

Then why did you come back and post?

[TE]

Does anyone know that this chazley fellow is just a troll? Quit responding to his basketball takes. Let him die.

[chazley]

But he is the reason we are losing these games because he is not producing. That +/- stat is for the whole team while his playing. You are the only one on this whole forum not seeing this.

You didn't watch any of the other games either.

Good lord, how many times do I have to use the analogy, just throw my grandma in there to replace Bonner and see how well both she and our team does +/- wise while she's on the court.

It wouldn't be pretty.

[honestfool84]

If I lose, I won't post on Spurstalk til playoffs.

But we aren't losing this game.

damn...

if only chazley was a man of his word.

[Sean Cagney]

My work is done here. I posted 15 individual advances stats, and contrasted them against both the young sop re that only has one season under his belt, and the seasoned vet. Both of which produce much more than Matty.

You can keep clinging on your 5 +/- lineups that have nothing to do with individual performance. At this point the only one you're trying to convince is yourself.

And do me a favor chaz, actually get your eyes out of the books and watch the games. It can't be more evident.

Don't worry this idiot will come back with the +2 the other night although he was 0-5 and say he hit three today and we won! You can post all the stats you want to but his FACTS or so called is all he cares about, although the idiot thinks BONNER is a good defender so that shows you how dumb he really is.

To quote Sheed, give the ball to whoever Bonner is on, good defenders do not have a soul say that about them.

Does anyone know that this chazley fellow is just a troll? Quit responding to his basketball takes. Let him die.

If he is not a troll he is the biggeset idiot on earth! Yet talks about facts, IQ and calls people easy or idiots and says he owns them . He is alone in this world, in his own lane I tell you.