Grades: Spurs @ Grizzlies - Feb. 5

[TJastal]

Do you simply not watch the games? Bonner rarely misses a rotation and shuts down multiple pick and roll plays with his footspeed almost every game.

Does he contest shots above the rim? No. But that does not make him an inadequate defender, as his +/- and advanced statistics have proven time and time again.

STOP judging Matt Bonner by the fact he is a white boy who can't jump. He has good foot speed for his size, is fairly lengthy despite the "T-rex arms" bull constantly being thrown around, and his BBIQ is actually rather high.

What's Bonner's +/- in the playoffs?

[GSH]

I'm sure somebody can dig up exceptions, but when a younger player gets less than about 30 minutes per game, it's generally a question of talent - not stamina. (And by that I mean the depth chart on that particular team.) I don't see anything about Splitter that says he couldn't handle starter minutes as well as anyone else. It might take a couple of weeks to complete the adjustment, just because he's been playing shorter minutes. But there's no reason to have any lower expectations for him, compared to other players in the league. , plus-sized Shaq averaged 30 minutes for Phoenix, in his 17th season. He was like 37, and dragging 350 lbs. up and down the court. I just don't have any question that Tiago could handle 30-32 minutes on a regular basis.

And I feel pretty good about our bench. When Manu and TJ get back, I think the Spurs' second unit will be at least a match for anyone's.

What I worry about is whether the Duncan/Blair starting frontcourt is strong enough to handle the teams they will see in the playoffs. On nights when the 3's are falling, it's not a problem. But when they aren't? I just think it would be nice to have the size and muscle of Tim and Tiago on the floor at the same time. But if that lineup is going to really click, they need some floor time. Maybe that's an 8-10 minute stretch at the beginning of the second half. At least for now.

But if this team is serious about advancing in the playoffs, it is going to take everyone being healthy, and Tiago Splitter playing more than his current 21 minutes per game. The second part seems obvious enough that I have to believe Pop has some plan for making it happen. Because when I start thinking he doesn't, I get all twitchy and stuff.

[Mel_13]

We just disagree on that. Going from 28 minutes one night, to 14 the next isn't a defined role.

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.

Almost every single one of your posts implied that when i read it.. ill check my reading comprehension.

I can't control what you infer, but I intended no such implication.

Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.

Mel, I think many of us are more concerned with Splitter's playoff MPG than regular season. We mainly want more minutes for Splitter in preparation for 30 MPG in the playoffs, not necessarily 30 MPG in the regular season.

I'd like to see something like 32 minutes one game, 15 the next, and alternate. That would keep the overall minutes down while giving Splitter a chance to get used to playing 32 in a game on a regular basis.

I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.

I agree with that Splitter and Tim playing together gives us the best chance to win, especially at the end of a game. However, we also have to consider what would happen when neither of them is on the court. That is, the combination of Blair and Bonner is the worst on the court.

I don't know about the real reason behind Pop's decision of not playing Splitter and Tim together much, but right now, keeping one of them on the court gives us a better chance to win from the perspective of the whole 48 mins.

This is the primary problem with the subject that timvp raised. At present, the Spurs have at least one defensive anchor/rim protector on the court for every single meaningful minute. Starting Tim and Tiago together means significant minutes every game with no defensive anchor. Plus, there will be some growing pains as Tim and Tiago learn to play together.

In the short term, the team's performance will probably suffer. It will be up to Pop to decide if the long term benefits are worth the price. I believe they will be, but I don't see it as a sure thing.

[TJastal]

I agree with that Splitter and Tim playing together gives us the best chance to win, especially at the end of a game. However, we also have to consider what would happen when neither of them is on the court. That is, the combination of Blair and Bonner is the worst on the court.

I don't know about the real reason behind Pop's decision of not playing Splitter and Tim together much, but right now, keeping one of them on the court gives us a better chance to win from the perspective of the whole 48 mins.

Funny, I don't recall that many objections a few years ago when Pop was going through his "mad scientist" phase with his Finley/Jefferson PF lineups.

A Blair / Bonner frontline beats the out of those.

[mystargtr34]

The only issue with Tiago starting is if Kawhi also starts.. a lineup with Tim-Tiago-Kawhi-Manu-Parker only gives you one floor spreader which may reduce Tiago's effectiveness. Having said that.. Blair is a liability starting so anything is probably an upgrade at this point.

The positive of that lineup is its by far the Spurs defensive unit.. so you have a chance at restricting the oppositions best players from the get go and not letting them get into a groove.

Although he finished 9-26 we all saw what happened to Rudy Gay once he got going offensively.

[mystargtr34]

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.



I can't control what you infer, but I intended no such implication.

Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.



I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.



This is the primary problem with the subject that timvp raised. At present, the Spurs have at least one defensive anchor/rim protector on the court for every single meaningful minute. Starting Tim and Tiago together means significant minutes every game with no defensive anchor. Plus, there will be some growing pains as Tim and Tiago learn to play together.

In the short term, the team's performance will probably suffer. It will be up to Pop to decide if the long term benefits are worth the price. I believe they will be, but I don't see it as a sure thing.

I understand what your saying.. but at some point you have to let your players play basketball without babying them. You cant be worrying about an injury every single minute of the game.. unfortunately they are apart of the game. Tiago is in the prime of his career.. just turned 27 so he's a different kettle of fish to Tim and especially Manu.. not to mention his a below the rim player which further reduces the risk of injury.

Besides.. there may be a chance to reduce the risk of injury in a way that allows him to play more minutes. Currently Tiago almost always plays 2 stretches of minutes each game.. about 8-10 minutes bridging the 1st and 2nd quarters.. and then again bridging the 3rd and 4th quarters. He is usually huffing and puffing towards the end of those minutes which obviously increases the risk of injury (when your fatigued). In my scenario (or a similar one) you can play him in 4 stints each lasting about 6-8 minutes which im allows him to remain at his peak throughout each stint.

As timvp pointed out a while back.. DeJuan is giving up a PER of over 21 last time i checked to his direct opponent.. thats an astonishing number.. i dont know if its to do more with the depth and quality of the PF position in the West.. or his defense.. its probably both but i would put my money on that number being reduced if Tiago starts.

[letmk]

Funny, I don't recall that many objections a few years ago when Pop was going through his "mad scientist" phase with his Finley/Jefferson PF lineups.

A Blair / Bonner frontline beats the out of those.

First, that I agree with some of Pop's arrangement does not necessarily mean I agree with all of his coaching.

Second, in theory, using Finley/Jefferson in small ball might mean more offense if they can somehow hold the the ground on the defensive side. Although sadly we've seen lots of beat up by the opponents' Odom or West, theoretically you could say it's a trade-off between offense and defense, speed and size, etc.

While Blair/Bonner combination is neither small ball (as no speed, no spread) nor defense-based by any stretch. In some extreme cases, if the opponent's low-post star player is not on the court, I'd rather go REAL small with Blair and 4 perimeter players than Blair and Bonner.

[ElNono]

The only issue with Tiago starting is if Kawhi also starts.. a lineup with Tim-Tiago-Kawhi-Manu-Parker only gives you one floor spreader which may reduce Tiago's effectiveness. Having said that.. Blair is a liability starting so anything is probably an upgrade at this point.

I count at least two that can play that role...

[LongtimeSpursFan]

I count at least two that can play that role...

You need at least three.

[mystargtr34]

I count at least two that can play that role...

Well you can count Tony aswell perhaps so that gives you 3.. or maybe 2.5.

Its pushing it.. but that lineup just makes me wet for its defensive potential.

[ElNono]

You need at least three.

We don't have that many in the staring lineup right now... don't know how swapping Blair for Splitter changes the number of floor-spreaders, tbh

Well you can count Tony aswell perhaps so that gives you 3.. or maybe 2.5.

Its pushing it.. but that lineup just makes me wet for its defensive potential.

I was just counting Manu and Tim (in a role not so different from Dice last season)... while Tony has been more adept this season to go to his jumper and even the occasional 3 pointer, I would think his value is greater when penetrating...

[DPG21920]

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.


Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.



I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

I guess we also disagree on what cons utes "role". Just naming what Tiago is good at isn't a role. When someone doesn't know if he will play 27 minutes or 14 on any given night, there isn't a defined role to me. When a player doesn't know if he will be in to close out games that is not a defined role to me. When a player doesn't get consistent touches or plays run through him, that's not a defined role to me. Just knowing that no matter how hard you play or how well you produce won't lead to consistent playing time isn't a defined role to me. Sure, we've learned Tiago is a great player who can build chemistry with whomever he is paired with and that he is capable of being a defensive anchor, but that doesn't mean his role is defined. He has flourished because he's a damn good player, not because of any sort of consistent playing time or defined role where he knows what is going to happen every game.

[Ice009]

Here's a link to today's EN article. Looks like Tiago wasn't slighted after all when Pop didn't mention him yesterday after the game.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...r-other-spurs/

"Popovich already had acknowledged Tiago Splitter’s breakout season Monday, so he felt no need to repeat himself."

[therealtruth]

Here's a link to today's EN article. Looks like Tiago wasn't slighted after all when Pop didn't mention him yesterday after the game.

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

[therealtruth]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

I guess we also disagree on what cons utes "role". Just naming what Tiago is good at isn't a role. When someone doesn't know if he will play 27 minutes or 14 on any given night, there isn't a defined role to me. When a player doesn't know if he will be in to close out games that is not a defined role to me. When a player doesn't get consistent touches or plays run through him, that's not a defined role to me. Just knowing that no matter how hard you play or how well you produce won't lead to consistent playing time isn't a defined role to me. Sure, we've learned Tiago is a great player who can build chemistry with whomever he is paired with and that he is capable of being a defensive anchor, but that doesn't mean his role is defined. He has flourished because he's a damn good player, not because of any sort of consistent playing time or defined role where he knows what is going to happen every game.

I have to agree 100%. The thing about is that if they start Tiago maybe he doesn't have to play that much because the team gets of to better starts. Why put yourself in that hole first and try to fight out of it? Teams like to start their best players so they can build a lead and then the bench can maintain it. You don't start a worse lineup and then hope to fight back or build a lead with the bench.

[ChumpDumper]

lol slighted

[Ice009]

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

That's why I posted it. Do you guys think Pop or the Spurs would go to the trouble of getting the paper to print that so it doesn't piss off the fans?

[therealtruth]

That's why I posted it. Do you guys think Pop or the Spurs would go to the trouble of getting the paper to print that so it doesn't piss off the fans?

Yes they did it before. They revised Pop's description of Tiago before. Pop called him a blue worker non skilled player. They revised the quote to remove the non skilled part.

[ChumpDumper]

spurfan infers too much.

[angelbelow]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

Solid post. I was going to write something similar to your first paragraph but I had to step out for a few hours.

If cardio is a concern, then the conditioning coach should be involved. Additionally his training regimen should be monitored. This should have started during the pre-season of his rookie year. I would be extremely shocked if players don't meet with conditioning coaches and have individual plans set up for the regular season and for the offseason. How closely players follow that plan is usually dependent on their work ethic and commitment to the game. Some players go as far as to hire their own personal trainer during off-season. (Of course, we have lazy ass' too.)

Tiago had such a trainer.. or should I say training partner in Tim Duncan. Considering the great shape that Duncan was in, I can't imagine Tiago being very far behind. I don't see any draw back in preparing him for 25-30 minutes a game. Starting slow would be fine, say 22-24 minutes for a few games and eventually working up to 30. But I don't like the range of 14-28 in the past 5 games either.

The injury concern.. given our history is a valid one.. however I like the positive approach. As far as Tiago is considered, I like the mentality of more minutes = further development/all around improvement, not more minutes = increase probability of injury. With someone like Manu or Timmy, we know exactly what they're capable of and their technical skill isn't going to improve - that's when I think its more appropriate to consider injures.

[ChumpDumper]

How is anyone going to be able to do a serious training regime with this schedule?

wysiwyg for now

[angelbelow]

How is anyone going to be able to do a serious training regime with this schedule?

wysiwyg for now

Yeah, that's a good point. The condensed schedule complicates personal and team workouts/practices. A few alternatives to physical work outs: be prepared mentally (ex. sleeping schedule), diet (protein, healthy meals), lots of stretching before/after games. Again, all of this is going to depend on the players determination and discipline. (Even Kobe doesn't eat well on the road..)

I also think Splitter did a good job preparing for the season. Staying in SA and working out with Duncan and Manu is an encouraging sign. If he really has cardio problems I think starting him off with 22-24 consistent minutes well do him wonders.

Splitter is an Euroleague MVP right? He doesn't have to be perfect but as long as he has the heart and the discipline of Euroleague MVP he'll do more right then wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

Splitter is an Euroleague MVP right?

Oh , here we go....

[Mel_13]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue.

It would appear that I've failed to make my point. I can tell you that the summary in the post quoted above is absolutely not the point I intended to get across, and I don't see the value in rehashing it once again.

I'll just look forward to the next discussion on the next topic.

[Obstructed_View]

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

Pop didn't say that. That's damage control by Pop lackeys at the paper.