Grades: Spurs vs. Hornets - Apr. 6

[TheSkeptic]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I just don't see how that works in his role as TD's backup.

I'm no guru but I would assume it'd be possible to put together a rotation that would allow him to be TD's backup and play minutes more befitting of a top 5 player on the team.

A young (enough) former MVP should not be behind situational off the bench bigs and even then he should be playing more than them.

We're going to completely disagree on that. I believe that there was an interview posted here (from Brazil, if I remember correctly) in which Tiago expressed satisfaction with his role on this year's team. I don't see how anyone comes to the conclusion that he's been jerked around this season. He knows exactly what is expected from him every game and he's played every game that he's been healthy.

Now last year, he was jerked around. He didn't know if he would play at all, when he would go in if he did play, or what might be expected from him in a given game. This year, he knows that TD will come out in the 1st quarter and the 3rd quarter, and that he will be the center for the rest of those two quarters and several minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters. I'm not sure how much more clearly defined his role could possibly be.

After not playing for most of last season, I can see why he'd be happy about this year's situation...

Yeah we will disagree but for the sake of conversation I'll give you the set role.

Bottom line I still don't think it's proper utilization of one of the team's best players. If Bonner can get a job that fits his strengths to perfection (although his playoff performances have been terribly disappointing), then a significantly better player in Tiago should be afforded the same opportunities.

[Mel_13]

I know I definitely haven't been a part of the solution, but there's something relaxing about arguing over Tiago's minutes. It almost wouldn't feel like a proper wrap-up without it.



See, I can believe that Pop was a fan of Tiago in the way he might've liked Oberto. "Blue collar" could be taken as a compliment since this coach is a fan of hard workers and "unskilled" could very well be his own personal assessment. This coupled with minute distribution honestly has me thinking that when he looks at Tiago he sees an upgraded Oberto.

I don't think this is a fair assessment and while the team could make the Finals since the West is wide open like that I have a hard time picturing the Spurs beating a team like Chicago or Miami with this set-up. Even with Tiago it might not be possible but I'd rather go down playing our best players.

Losing with this current rotation would be a really tough pill to swallow tbh.

Pop did play Oberto next to TD in 2007. So, it would seem that regarding Tiago as an upgraded Oberto, even if true and even if not quite fair to Tiago, is not the critical obstacle to a TD/Tiago starting frontline.

If your next question would be, then what is? My best guess, and it's only a guess, is that they were going to have get through a compressed 66 game schedule with just 4 bigs. They concluded that the deployment of those 4 players that we have seen for most of this season was the best possible deployment. Clearly there are many here who would disagree with that conclusion, but it fits the facts of the situation that we have observed.

[DPG21920]

So by that logic Mel, you anticipate Tiago's minutes increasing in the playoffs over less productive players?

[Mel_13]

Mel, I can never tell how serious you really take this stuff - Is it that you really view everything as a serious convo or just at times?

The CLE game, Tiago played 17 minutes and Tim played 23. Unless I'm missing something that doesn't add up to 48.

I've been completely serious in this thread. I try to make it very obvious when I'm not.

The numbers don't add up to 48 because it was a 35 point blowout. I thought that had already been covered. If the game had been compe ive to the end, Tim would have played 31 minutes and the minutes would have added up.

In the Cleveland game, and in every game before it, Tiago subbed in for Tim in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

In the Hornet game, Diaw subbed in for Tim in the 1st quarter.

[T Park]

Quiveling over 8 mins and thinking that proves Pop hates Splitter?

Good god..

[DPG21920]

So then it goes back to what I said: We don't need to see the last 12 games - If Tiago's minutes and role are the same regardless of the situation (close game, blowout...), we know what to expect and that is Tiago not getting very many minutes despite being a top 5 player on the team due to his role.

That's the debate - why is that his role? Is it injuries or Pop not thinking Tiago is all that good?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just saying there might be other variables is a cop out in the context of discussion on a message board. When all else fails look at what is actually happening vs what you think should happen. You then arrive at your logical answer given the known variables.

Or you can conclude that it just doesn't add up and keep an open mind rather then trying the fit the square peg into the round hole routine.

I make no comments about 'should happen' whereas you take your little box of knowledge and limit the discussion to that even if it doesn't make sesne. Further you conclude that Pop is making a mistake because you conclude he is not doing what he 'should.'

Introspection is important.

I do not completely discount that notion but as i stated it just smacks of hubris to me.

All I know is that Pop does not like playing either Splitter or Duncan at the 4. i just wish SA media would try harder to ask him why that is so we do not have to guess.

[DPG21920]

Quiveling over 8 mins and thinking that proves Pop hates Splitter?

Good god..

Who said Pop hates Splitter? Saying Pop is not as high on Splitter's abilities as some of us are and that's why he doesn't play more minutes is not saying Pop hates Splitter.

[Mel_13]

I'm no guru but I would assume it'd be possible to put together a rotation that would allow him to be TD's backup and play minutes more befitting of a top 5 player on the team.

A young (enough) former MVP should not be behind situational off the bench bigs and even then he should be playing more than them.



After not playing for most of last season, I can see why he'd be happy about this year's situation...

Yeah we will disagree but for the sake of conversation I'll give you the set role.

Bottom line I still don't think it's proper utilization of one of the team's best players. If Bonner can get a job that fits his strengths to perfection (although his playoff performances have been terribly disappointing), then a significantly better player in Tiago should be afforded the same opportunities.

As I answered to DPG, I recognize that there are lots of folks here who believe that Tiago's role should be expanded. I'm trying my best to stay out of that discussion. That goes to opinion and I'm not going to try talk someone out of their opinion. I joined in here to get the facts straight as to Tiago's history. I've also continued to assert my belief that Tiago has a well defined role on this year's team, while staying out of the debate as to whether or not that role is the optimal one.

[DPG21920]

Or you can conclude that it just doesn't add up and keep an open mind rather then trying the fit the square peg into the round hole routine.

I make no comments about 'should happen' whereas you take your little box of knowledge and limit the discussion to that even if it doesn't make sesne. Further you conclude that Pop is making a mistake because you conclude he is not doing what he 'should.'

Introspection is important.

I do not completely discount that notion but as i stated it just smacks of hubris to me.

All I know is that Pop does not like playing either Splitter or Duncan at the 4. i just wish SA media would try harder to ask him why that is so we do not have to guess.

I agree to an extent, but when you have this sample size, coaches public comments and the ability to look at production, advanced metrics and match ups, you also have to ask at some point how many other variables are there? In this case after seeing all the arguments presented I am of the opinion that there really isn't very many variables left that haven't been on the table.

[Mel_13]

So then it goes back to what I said: We don't need to see the last 12 games - If Tiago's minutes and role are the same regardless of the situation (close game, blowout...), we know what to expect and that is Tiago not getting very many minutes despite being a top 5 player on the team due to his role.

That's the debate - why is that his role? Is it injuries or Pop not thinking Tiago is all that good?

That's a debate you're having with someone else.

[DPG21920]

Yes, Mel. You are correct. I'm posing general questions within you and I's direct conversations.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I agree to an extent, but when you have this sample size, coaches public comments and the ability to look at production, advanced metrics and match ups, you also have to ask at some point how many other variables are there? In this case after seeing all the arguments presented I am of the opinion that there really isn't very many variables left that haven't been on the table.

LJ has shown some stats that show that offensive production takes a significant hit when Duncan and Splitter are paired. i think a better question should be what exactly are the variable's valued at.

[TheSkeptic]

LJ has shown some stats that show that offensive production takes a significant hit when Duncan and Splitter are paired. i think a better question should be what exactly are the variable's valued at.

He's also shown some stats that showed they were not too far off of the Blair/Duncan pairing offensively hasn't he?

They're not perfect fits but given the potential there it's an avenue worth exploring. And in any case, playing them around 10 minutes together would be adequate imo.

[therealtruth]

What's weirder about Pop refusal to play Splitter alongside Duncan is that he wasn't at against him last summer.

Last may, he said:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/s...ck-1379352.php

It might be senility. Pop's said alot of crazy things as well as forgetting stuff he said before. He called Bogans the centerpiece. He called Splitter the lynch-pin. He said they were going to get back to playing defense.

Pop did play Oberto next to TD in 2007. So, it would seem that regarding Tiago as an upgraded Oberto, even if true and even if not quite fair to Tiago, is not the critical obstacle to a TD/Tiago starting frontline.

Pop's no longer the defense first coach he was in '08.

[ChumpDumper]

He's also shown some stats that showed they were not too far off of the Blair/Duncan pairing offensively hasn't he?

They're not perfect fits but given the potential there it's an avenue worth exploring. And in any case, playing them around 10 minutes together would be adequate imo.

Is it worth exploring this late in the season while trying to find a role for another frontline player and watch out for Tiago's fatigue issue as well as Tim's total minutes?

Splitter's role and potential may have peaked for this season.

[Obstructed_View]

People are acting like Tiago has missed months due to injury, I don't get it. Plenty of people miss more games than Tiago without getting the injury prone label.

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs ed up with his ankle.

[ChumpDumper]

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs ed up with his ankle.

Splitter had the history of injuries long before he became a Spur.

If you can blame Splitter's missed games on the medical staff, please provide proof. Otherwise is a false comparison.

[Mel_13]

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs ed up with his ankle.

That's just not true.

Tiago had a history of these small, nagging injuries during his career in Europe. He had two separate injuries that cost him games last season and another two separate injuries that have cost him games this season. I don't know or care if that merits a label, but it is a fact that he has missed games due to small, nagging injuries on four separate occasions since signing with Spurs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He's also shown some stats that showed they were not too far off of the Blair/Duncan pairing offensively hasn't he?

They're not perfect fits but given the potential there it's an avenue worth exploring. And in any case, playing them around 10 minutes together would be adequate imo.

Perhaps but at that point it becomes much more nuanced than a certainty.

And do not get me wrong. Splitter is perhaps my favorite player on the team now and i too would like to see him eat some of Blair's minutes but I just refuse to take the leap that Pop is dumb that I see so many others take. Pop being senile has now entered the discussion.

Duncan cannot guard the perimeter anymore. i wish he would let Splitter try to chase the Brian Andersons of the world or try his hand at the high post. I saw the last time he paired the two, Splitter came over from the weakside to defend the rim when Duncan lost contain on a pick and roll. i see the same but I suspect the coaches do too because its pretty blatant,

More than anything I wish our media would do a better job determining what the coaches are actually thinking so we do not have to guess.

[TheSkeptic]

That's just not true.

Tiago had a history of these small, nagging injuries during his career in Europe. He had two separate injuries that cost him games last season and another two separate injuries that have cost him games this season. I don't know or care if that merits a label, but it is a fact that he has missed games due to small, nagging injuries on four separate occasions since signing with Spurs.

I get what you're saying but there were actually quite a few posters (you weren't one of them) that *did* label him as injury prone before he ever got hurt.

Then 48minutesof put out that article and people ran with it after that to the point where I think it's being viewed disproportionately by some.

Injury prone to me is Bogut, Bynum before he got it together, et. al.

Not a guy like Tiago who will miss some time with muscle strains here and there. "Prone to nagging injuries" would, imo, be a more accurate description of the situation and at that I think some of those could probably be prevented somewhat with a few slight changes.

Especially since there's a bit of a double standard there with respect to the correlation between Manu's injuries/minutes.

[Mel_13]

I get what you're saying but there were actually quite a few posters (you weren't one of them) that *did* label him as injury prone before he ever got hurt.

Then 48minutesof put out that article and people ran with it after that to the point where I think it's being viewed disproportionately by some.

Fair enough, but is anyone seriously making the case that some labels on the internet are having any impact whatsoever on how Pop uses Tiago?

[ChumpDumper]

Would it help the thread along if we used the term "nagging injury prone" from now on?

Getting kind of bogged down on tangents.

[TheSkeptic]

Perhaps but at that point it becomes much more nuanced than a certainty.

And do not get me wrong. Splitter is perhaps my favorite player on the team now and i too would like to see him eat some of Blair's minutes but I just refuse to take the leap that Pop is dumb that I see so many others take. Pop being senile has now entered the discussion.

Duncan cannot guard the perimeter anymore. i wish he would let Splitter try to chase the Brian Andersons of the world or try his hand at the high post. I saw the last time he paired the two, Splitter came over from the weakside to defend the rim when Duncan lost contain on a pick and roll. i see the same but I suspect the coaches do too because its pretty blatant,

More than anything I wish our media would do a better job determining what the coaches are actually thinking so we do not have to guess.

I agree with most of this.

Defensively it's been looking decent since the Pistons game I think. The high-low pass against (Minnesota was it?) is what has convinced me this pairing could work offensively as well. Well, at least long enough that the team could maximize the two of them.

Dumb isn't the word for it because outside of this situation Pop has done a great job. I'd say that it's more of a blind spot than anything else. He's like a Byronic hero.

Splitter has some match-ups I thought he struggled with (Kevin Love) but he's also done some good work against perimeter-oriented bigs in the past (Aldridge). SJax/Leonard is another option for some of these players as well.

Journalism in general is going downhill these days, but what's wrong in particular with the San Antonio media?

[TheSkeptic]

Fair enough, but is anyone seriously making the case that some labels on the internet are having any impact whatsoever on how Pop uses Tiago?

I think the injury-prone label is being used as an explanation/crutch more than anything else for some people.

Given the way Pop has handled injured players in the past and currently, however, I don't believe that the injuries are the issue here.