Heat: Lebron's reign maybe longer than I thought ...

[Killakobe81]

Lebron is already greater than Kobe. However, I don't see him surpassing Duncan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, or Jordan. So his ceiling is #6 of all time.

We can already measure his ranking fairly well because his 2012 season will probably be his best in the end. So all you have to do is compare his best year with the other legends' best years.

62 Wilt, 71 Kareem, 91 Jordan, 2000 Shaq, and 2003 Duncan > 2012 James > 2006 Kobe (or any year)

LOL so much fail, his peak maybe better but career wise no he has not passed Kobe yet ...

And if he stays healthy he will pass Duncan because Kobe is above Tim regardless ...

[Killakobe81]

I posted this in another thread for you but it belongs here as well:

Lebron is good...but I just don't see things the way you do...I don't feel like he's really earned anything...his path seems to easy compared to MJ and Kobe...and I cannot respect that...he's playing in a new era that is weak and cheap tbh....it really is a pussified league now...I mean when you got lebron's Mamma literally running onto the court to protect him which was bad enough and then him telling her to go sit her ass down...I probably will never respect the guy...plus he's not going through tough teams like MJ and Kobe did..

to me the early 90's Knicks teams was the greatest defensive team of all time. Starks, Gerald Wilkins, X-Man, Anthony Mason, Oakley, and Ewing...was sick as on defense and nearly impossible to consistently score on. I just imagined replacing Ewing with Olajuwon....talk about ing sick...even the Bad Boy's lead by Zeke...Rodman, Laimbeer, J-Salley, Mahorn, Dumars, Vinnie...MJ consistently lost to this team..these cats were hardcore...and it's the ultimate reason I give MJ the nod over Kobe...he just had to face some wicked ass defenses...and he overcame it too...bit it's widely agree'd by many coaches and GM's that Kobe is probably the only player today that could have played in that era given is penchant for throwing elbows and his toughness of playing through injuries with a game patterned after MJ's.

So while not the Pistons or Knicks...Kobe has faced his own level of teams and defenders that were pretty tough...starting with the Spurs that were anchored by the defensive presence of Tim Duncan with Bowen as a prime wing defender...also great wing defending teams such as the Kings and Trailblazzers. Kobe had to face individuals defenders such as prime Artest, Bowen, Shefalosa, Dahntay Jones, James Posey, Tayshaun, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Tony Allen, Battier, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Eric Snow...all great wing defenders when in their primes...especially Bowen...Kobe even had to deal with Pippen and Rodman...though not prime Pippen and Rodman...but he's had to earn his stripes through tough defenders...Rodman even pointed that out and said that's why he'd pick Mj and Kobe over Lebron...they've proven their toughness...Lebron just may be a victim of a WEAK ERA...

He's good but he doesn't have the mental make-up to deal with such teams as the Knicks and Pistons...or Spurs for that matter...a prime Lebron going against a prime Spurs team lead by Duncan gets swept in the finals...in our generation his game is tailored made for the Spurs team anchored by Duncan to defend and stop him...but they had a harder time trying to stop Kobe from his relentless offensive assualts on them...Lebron can't sustain that level of energy he's too big and doesn't have the array of moves MJ and Kobe has.

The question now is WHO HAS A PRIME LEBRON FACED?

What prime tough defensive teams has he gone through...To me his lone compe or at his positin (Melo) pretty much s on him when they play one on one. Lebron won't take the Melo assignment but rather he defers to Battier...that's why I don't respect him...he's quick to jump all over D-Rose because he's physically bigger but when faced with a player of his own size (Melo) or a player who doens't respect him (Danny Granger) he starts to nut up. He will make the top 5 list if he wins 3 les but as far as I'm concerned he's faced no real compe ion enroute to those les (except a non-prime old and battered Boston team). When he had a clear chance to meet up with Kobe in the finals he faked an elbow injury when his cavs team could have beaten Boston. I just can't cut for this cat...he's not real to me....MJ and Kobe I give them their props as 1-2

SOme great points, Kool. But even if he is the best in a watered down league he si still the best. And sure Lebron did not beat a team likeDuncan's Spurs or Ewings Knicks ... Lebron story is not finished. Right now there is no team that is on their level so he does have that part a bit easy. the closest we could say is when he faced the 2008 Celts .... hopefully some team will rise to challenge him. Not sure OKC has enough ...

But I think despite some -made in his DNA ...he still has overcome that to be a POTENTIAL GOAT he just still needs to win more chips.

As a side note ...I know Harlem is biased, but Lebron could do more to attract less hate by stoppingt he bull- attention grabs. Like the Dunk contest? tweet ... why does he keep teasing that ?! Why not just leave it alone? ESPN already sucks him off how much more does he need?

Lebron deserved some of the Heat for the Decision special, and for not bringing guys to him instead of joining Wade. KAreem at least won a le before he jumped ship ... and so when his all-time ranking is debateed Im sure not ringing in Cleveland (not saying with the teams he had, just saying he failed to ring there and he would of if he stayed). will have to be factored in.

Some folks give him props for making the Finals with Cleveland I dont ...the East was weak. I give him praise FPOR THE WAY he did it. That eCF performance when he scored all of those points vs. the Pistons was up there with the best MJ, Nique, Bird, Magic, kobe duncan, kareem or HAkeem performance I have ever seen. As a Laker fan I was hoping he would not put it all together like he is doing now at least until we were no longer contenders ... but signs point to him maximimizing his prodigous talent this year.

I fully expect Lebron to win this year ... but can he keep it up? that is the question. Remember MJ had to shut it down after winning 3 straight les twice. If Lebron can win 4 straight or 4 out of the next 5 (including last year) he will get some GOAT status support and he will deserve it.

[stretch]

91 Jordan = 2012 James > 2006 Kobe (or most any year), 62 Wilt, 71 Kareem, 91 Jordan, 2000 Shaq, and 2003 Duncan

fify

[Clipper Nation]

did the hidden kobe fanboy strength and honour just meltdown there?

Hidden?

[ezau]

Lebron in the Finals= 1/3
MJ= 6/6

Thread over es

[Killakobe81]

Lebron in the Finals= 1/3
MJ= 6/6

Thread over es

I get for some that is the end all ... but if Lebron gets 5 out of 7 ... (FINALS) he will have a strong case.

The reason I am a bigger Lebron "fan" this year as opposed to last (i would say defender supporter instead) is .... unlike Shaq and Dirk who got fat and lazy after winning their first le, LEbron came back BETTER. That is what MJ did, Magic, Bird, Kobe, duncan did. Sure Shaq still won but he had a chance to be historic like James is doing right now. Liek I said at the beginning even MJ nor Kobe in his prime made ball look this easy.

Lebron has my ultimate respect ...

[stretch]

Lebron in the Finals= 1/3
MJ= 6/6

Thread over es

MJ also had some pretty loaded teams and everyone knew that they would win every series they were in.

Lebron's finals appearance with the Cavs should practically not count, considering that POS team he had around him.

The Finals against the Mavs is more understandable to use against Lebron, although it is pretty evident now that it was heavily a case of lack of chemistry (and a Mavs team firing on all cylinders) as the reason they lost more than anything. It took MJ several years with the core he had (Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Cartwright) till he got enough chemistry with his teammates to finally put them over the top (which included a number of early playoff flamouts). Lebron got there in the first year with his core, and was very close to winning it.

I'd say it's more impressive to get to the finals and lose, than to not make it to the finals at all, with a team that has finals level talent. And MJ had more than enough talent to get to the finals more than once, but they kept flaming out against the Pistons, because they knew how to play a mind game with him.

All this "MJ = Jesus" crap is getting annoying. He is the GOAT, but he wasn't flawless at all. He had plenty of failures, just like every single great player ever.

[whitemamba]

lebron is just on a tear right now, but he is an athletic machine.. no one has that frame, speed, power... im sorry untill he develops a solid out side shot, and rangs a few more times, thats when the discussion begins. lots of his baskets are layups/dunks etc.. whats going to happen when his body slows down..

[stretch]

lebron is just on a tear right now, but he is an athletic machine.. no one has that frame, speed, power... im sorry untill he develops a solid out side shot, and rangs a few more times, thats when the discussion begins. lots of his baskets are layups/dunks etc.. whats going to happen when his body slows down..

Um, Lebron already has developed an outside shot, as well as a post game. Just like MJ did before he started to slow down. And those aspects of his are continuing to improve, just like MJ's did too.

[whitemamba]

Um, Lebron already has developed an outside shot, as well as a post game. Just like MJ did before he started to slow down. And those aspects of his are continuing to improve, just like MJ's did too.

i havent really watched a lot of miami games, but from the ones ive seen he just goes to the rack.. over and over and over again, there will be a jumper that he will make here and there, but mainly attacks the basket. which is fine, what ever gets it done. and this post game you speak of, is just being stronger than the guy defending him, thats a monkey-esque attribute.. MJ had a consistent jumper, a great back to the basket game as well.. i dont think lebron has that yet.

[stretch]

i havent really watched a lot of miami games, but from the ones ive seen he just goes to the rack.. over and over and over again, there will be a jumper that he will make here and there, but mainly attacks the basket. which is fine, what ever gets it done. and this post game you speak of, is just being stronger than the guy defending him, thats a monkey-esque attribute.. MJ had a consistent jumper, a great back to the basket game as well.. i dont think lebron has that yet.

I don't think his size and strength will ever leave him. His leaping and speed will subside, but even when it does, he will still probably be one of the 5-10 most athletic players in the league, instead of the indisputed #1 by a longshot like he currently is.

[whitemamba]

I don't think his size and strength will ever leave him. His leaping and speed will subside, but even when it does, he will still probably be one of the 5-10 most athletic players in the league, instead of the indisputed #1 by a longshot like he currently is.

only time will tell

[irishock]

I don't think his size and strength will ever leave him.

Stern said NBA is starting PED testing next season

[whitemamba]

Stern said NBA is starting PED testing next season

[Lincoln]

Uhhh, no you won't.
at you inviting yourself to Vanessa's.

[stretch]

only time will tell

lol okay...

[D-Wade]

He was 36% from 3 last year. 41% this year. That's an amazing improvement. His mid-range game has improved, too.

Sure shooting like he did in Game 6 against the Celtics is an aberration but you can no longer say this guy doesn't have a J.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the only difference from this season to last year is just better efficiency, i dont see how that is worthy of mvp...he has to either lead his team to the best record in the league to win another mvp besides those high efficiency stats....but currently no player in the league is playing like he is atm, durant has fallen off and a distant 2nd with many guys behind him knockin on his door

[ezau]

MJ also had some pretty loaded teams and everyone knew that they would win every series they were in.

Lebron's finals appearance with the Cavs should practically not count, considering that POS team he had around him.

The Finals against the Mavs is more understandable to use against Lebron, although it is pretty evident now that it was heavily a case of lack of chemistry (and a Mavs team firing on all cylinders) as the reason they lost more than anything. It took MJ several years with the core he had (Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Cartwright) till he got enough chemistry with his teammates to finally put them over the top (which included a number of early playoff flamouts). Lebron got there in the first year with his core, and was very close to winning it.

I'd say it's more impressive to get to the finals and lose, than to not make it to the finals at all, with a team that has finals level talent. And MJ had more than enough talent to get to the finals more than once, but they kept flaming out against the Pistons, because they knew how to play a mind game with him.

All this "MJ = Jesus" crap is getting annoying. He is the GOAT, but he wasn't flawless at all. He had plenty of failures, just like every single great player ever.

I guess people already forgot how Lebron bolted out of Cleveland because he couldn't win on his own. I'd say the 2011 Heat team was more loaded than anything that Jordan ever had. Both Wade and Bosh are Top 15 players in the league in 2011, yet they lost to the Mavs who only had one superstar. Jordan's Bulls and Shaq's Lakers would have destroyed the 2011 Mavs team in five games tops.

Lebron has been the best player in the league since 2008, yet he only won the ship last year and he even needed the help of Wade and Bosh to do it. Not only that, he beat an OKC team that almost lost to an aging and past-their-prime Spurs's squad. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is far and away the best player in the league right now, but let's not get carried away comparing him to Jordan yet.

[ezau]

I get for some that is the end all ... but if Lebron gets 5 out of 7 ... (FINALS) he will have a strong case.

The reason I am a bigger Lebron "fan" this year as opposed to last (i would say defender supporter instead) is .... unlike Shaq and Dirk who got fat and lazy after winning their first le, LEbron came back BETTER. That is what MJ did, Magic, Bird, Kobe, duncan did. Sure Shaq still won but he had a chance to be historic like James is doing right now. Liek I said at the beginning even MJ nor Kobe in his prime made ball look this easy.

Lebron has my ultimate respect ...

Lebron was already very good, but there's no way that he'll get out of the East if stayed in Cleveland. Heck, his Cleveland team couldn't even beat the Magic in 2009 All this respect for Lebron is a result of him bolting out of Cleveland so he could win a ring the easy way.

[ezau]

i havent really watched a lot of miami games, but from the ones ive seen he just goes to the rack.. over and over and over again, there will be a jumper that he will make here and there, but mainly attacks the basket. which is fine, what ever gets it done. and this post game you speak of, is just being stronger than the guy defending him, thats a monkey-esque attribute.. MJ had a consistent jumper, a great back to the basket game as well.. i dont think lebron has that yet.

Not to mention MJ had superior footwork compared to Lebron. I still think Lebron has to surpass Kobe's achievements first before being compared to MJ.

[FlaSpursFan]

I used to be a Lerbron hater mostly because most of my extended family lives in the ohio valley area and they were cavs fans, but over time I have realized that I just cant deny his greatness. He is the best player that I have seen (Started really paying attention to basketball in the late 90s). What he does can not be replicated by a single other player that I have seen play.

[midnightpulp]

lebron is just on a tear right now, but he is an athletic machine.. no one has that frame, speed, power... im sorry untill he develops a solid out side shot, and rangs a few more times, thats when the discussion begins. lots of his baskets are layups/dunks etc.. whats going to happen when his body slows down..

Lebron will be a great player until his mid-30s. I think his otherworldly combination of speed, athleticism, and size obscures the fact that he is a very fundamentally sound player with a sky-high basketball IQ. Sure, he might not be able to score 30 at will by the time he's 35, but he will still be a top 5-10 player in the NBA and a consistent 25-8-8 threat every night. And even if he sustains some of type of injury that greatly affects athleticism, it still won't take away his passing ability and height, which like Magic, not the most athletic player, allows him to see over opposing defenses with relative ease. If something does happen to Lebron's athleticism, he would transition from scorer to playmaker and be something like a 19ppg, 7rpg, 10-11apg type of player, and would probably still be in the MVP discussion.

[whitemamba]

Lebron will be a great player until his mid-30s. I think his otherworldly combination of speed, athleticism, and size obscures the fact that he is a very fundamentally sound player with a sky-high basketball IQ. Sure, he might not be able to score 30 at will by the time he's 35, but he will still be a top 5-10 player in the NBA and a consistent 25-8-8 threat every night. And even if he sustains some of type of injury that greatly affects athleticism, it still won't take away his passing ability and height, which like Magic, not the most athletic player, allows him to see over opposing defenses with relative ease. If something does happen to Lebron's athleticism, he would transition from scorer to playmaker and be something like a 19ppg, 7rpg, 10-11apg type of player, and would probably still be in the MVP discussion.

good take tbh