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Please expand.
Catholics and Christians share a large number of fundamental Biblical beliefs.
-The Bible is without error.
-Individuals are initially hopelessly lost in sin and separated from God.
-The Holy Trinity- God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
-The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus Christ.
-Justification is brought about through God's grace.
- Justification is not earned by the individual.
-The Crucifixtion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Care to explain why this isn't enough to get the true believers of both denominations into Heaven?
Last edited by jochhejaam; 08-06-2005 at 08:57 PM.
Please expand.
I really don't want to do this because anytime I discuss religion with a Christian I always get the ol' "not all Christians believe that" counter.
Let me use a far-reaching example and ask you this: Is there a place, at all, in your heaven for child molesters? People who commit genocide? Cold-blooded murderers? Is there possibly room in your heaven for Adolph Hitler, Jeff Dahmer, and Scott Peterson?
Are there not like 30,000 denominations of Christianity?
But, just one Christ.
Guru, yer gettin' to be quite a "tree shaker" What's your take on the question you've posed?
Here's mine;
The Bible teaches that there is only 1 sin that is unforgivable and that is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Webster's defines it this way; "irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable" The definition I've heard that makes most sense is, attributing the works of God to Satan, which would fall under the definition rendered in the dictionary.
The cir stance in Scripture that come to mind is when the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of performing miracles by the power of Satan. (I'll put a more indepth explanation of this at the bottom of this post for those who are interested)
So, in theory there can be a place in heaven for anyone who follows the plan for salvation who has not knowingly blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (which is part of the nature of God and Christ).
It's not totally inconceivable that they repented before their death but I would think, based upon their macabre nature, that it is highly inlikely. There are verses in the Book of Romans (posted under this paragraph) that perhaps refer to those you gave examples of who have become the embodiment of evil;
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21-22-23 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images ...
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29-30 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31-32 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
The aforementioned (the depraved reprobate) describes the bottom of the barrel in humanity. People who's mindset makes them capable of all of the evil mentioned above. For those who wonder whether or not they fall into this category my answer to you would be that "you do not"! If you care enough to ask the question than your heart has obviously not been hardened. Those that fall into the category of the depraved mind couldn't care less about those verses and couldn't care less about God.
I had a cousin that died from AIDS a few years back. He did not have a hard heart towards God and actually had a very gentle nature and although he was never able to fully extract himself from the sexual lifestyle I believe that he had a heart that was searching for a way out of his sin and into the arms of God. My guess, and I'm not his judge, is that he is in heaven.
All of us have sins that we deal with on a daily basis. Some are more serious than others and the ensuing consequenses more severe but the key is to recognize that they are sins and desire to rid our lives of these sins.
Last edited by jochhejaam; 08-07-2005 at 02:52 PM.
I believe Christ's message is pretty clear. Entrance to his heaven is dependent on nothing more than love. It does not require you to kneel at mass, it does not require you to take communion, and it does not even require you to believe that he was the son of god. It requires you to love, and lead your life with an open heart and be willing to extend that love to any person you come across. All of his teachings point to this.
However, the reason you have so many sects of Christianity is because no one is willing to sit there and teach you what Jesus' real message was. At some point, all of these demoninations were offshots of another one.
Why? Because they disagreed with an interpretation or some rule and the way it was being enforced. And all of you seem to agree that these rules are really arbitrary and not really important to the central idea of Christ.
So my question then becomes this. Why have unessecary rules? And if those rules are nessecary, are the differences in the demoninations you are so easily casting aside really more important than that?
Good response.
Also, you have certain demoninations who believe in predetermination (such as Lutherans and Baptists) which is completely counter to the idea of free will. How is that explained?
I believe.
(no response to this must mean I accidently hit the submit tab)
Last edited by jochhejaam; 08-07-2005 at 04:18 PM.
I'm just asking questions. Don't shoot the messenger.
So, SMEAGOL, does your God give child molesters the benefit of the doubt?
I have a question:
Why some people need to believe in Gods or religions nowadays?
I'm an atheist, and I have always made that question to religious people, because simply, I just can't understand it. I know it's a matter of faith, to believe or not, but I'm curious why people need to believe.
Nobody needs to believe in God or religions. It is a personal choice.
IMO In your post you have some good takes on what God is all about other than what I highlighted. I will explain why I feel it's important to believe otherwise and I will also cite scripture that supports part of your view of Christianity.
If you don't believe Christ was the Son of God then that opposes Christ's very teaching where He proclaims Himself the Son of God and also opposes the Scripture where God proclaims Jesus as His Son. If Jesus is lying about this then His entire message is a lie. I don't bellieve we can believe half of what He says, discard the other half as untrue or without merit and still view Him as credible. If He has lied about the most important part of His ministry, that He is the Son of God, then His entire ministry has lost all credibility because His words are teaching are supposed to be based on truth.
The Crux of the Gospels is that that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The entire New Testament is founded upon Christ being the Son of God who became our sacrificial Lamb in taking away the sins of the world. In the first Book of John it says "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ) and the Word was with God and the Word was God...and the word was made flesh (the birth of Christ) and dwelt among us. Take away the deity of Christ and the Gospels, indeed the entire Bible, are baseless.
Man had made rules, and still have rules today that are not necessary and Christ condemned this in Scripture. The Pharisees (the most influential and vocal of the societies at the time of the New Testament) were taken to task by Jesus for this very thing. Again in the Book of John;
42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
44"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."
45One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also."
46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens (laws) they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Those verses describe what God and Jesus Christ are not about!
The love the Pharisees exhibited was a love for self but Christ exhibits a love for others.
I'm not sure what Lutherans believe. The Baptists believe "once saved, always saved", which I have serious reservations about, but I've never heard that the Baptists believe in predetermination.
Some say that if God knows everything including the future then we do not have a free will and are therefore predetermined.
I say God knows everything, including the future and has also given us a free will. In knowing everything he knows what choices we are going to make with that free will. That doesn't cons ute predetermination, that's just God being omniscient.
[QUOTE]
A little defensive are we? (just answer yes)
And I'm just checkin' to see if you have any answers yerself.
Heck, I don't even own a gun!besides, you're a questioner not a messenger.
Last edited by jochhejaam; 08-07-2005 at 04:26 PM.
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]That's funny. Why would I be defensive.
A little defensive are we? (just answer yes)
And I'm just checkin' to see if you have any answers yerself.
Heck, I don't even own a gun!
And no, I don't have any answers - NONE!!
But, I do like kicking the tires on those that do have answers.
No answers...thus the username?
Carry on then.
(my tires were constructed to take a good kicking).
Contradiction. Free Will implies means that it is impossible to know what the decision is because it hasn't been made. If someone knows what the decision is, there is no actual decision.
No one is telling me what to type which means I'm exercising my free will.
God is all knowing which means He knew ahead of time what I was going to type.
God in omniscient He created all things or gave us the capacity to create things.
Omniscient; 1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
Jeremiah 1:5, God - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
According to your rationale since he knew me before I was born then I'm actually not here typing...
God does not fall under mans rules, understanding or logic.
no contradiction, you're understanding of God just need to be enriched. (and so does mine)
What If
by: Nichole Nordeman
What if you’re right?
And he was just another nice guy
What if you’re right?
What if it’s true?
They say the cross will only make a fool of you
And what if it’s true?
What if he takes his place in history
With all the prophets and the kings
Who taught us love and came in peace
But then the story ends
What then?
But what if you’re wrong?
What if there’s more?
What if there’s hope you never dreamed of hoping for?
What if you jump?
And just close your eyes?
What if the arms that catch you, catch you by surprise?
What if He’s more than enough?
What if it’s love?
What if you dig
Way down deeper than your simple-minded friends
What if you dig?
What if you find
A thousand more unanswered questions down inside
That’s all you find?
What if you pick apart the logic
And begin to poke the holes
What if the crown of thorns is no more
Than folklore that must be told and retold?
You’ve been running as fast as you can
You’ve been looking for a place you can land for so long
But what if you’re wrong?
If god knows what I'm going to do, and I'm never going to accept him, then how can I be saved?
You have the free will to choose, He knows what that is. Do you really feel constrained by that?
The question still remains unanswered.
In a situation where God knows that the person is never going to choose salvation, how will those people be saved?
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