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^Exactly. The hard fouls Manu went through were ridiculous and way harder than Artest's. But he wasn't an idiot like Artest. He didn't even look at Melo when he did that. He just got up and was the same class-act he's always been known to be.
And Artest was "choke pushed" only after he retaliated aginst Wallace, which was entirely his choice. Wallace didn't push him and then choke push him without any action from Artest in between those events.
Had Artest not retaliated -- had he let the officials call the flagrant or technical or whatever on Wallace, gone to the line, shot his free throws, and gone home, none of the bad stuff would have happened. All of the bad stuff came only because of what happened after his retaliation.
Again, I point to the example of Manu getting thrown to the floor in Denver with contact that was much more significant than Wallace's meaningless push. Had Manu responded, with the way the crowds in Denver were already treating him, the Palace might have looked like a minor scrap. Instead, Manu acted like a man and let the officials take care of the problem. He got himself off the floor, shot his free throws and moved along from there. No reaction from Manu, no melees.
It was Ron's choice to respond. That's why he's got to bear as much or more responsibility than anyone else in that melee. I've never understood why some Pacers fans don't hold him accountable for that decision.
Last edited by FromWayDowntown; 09-03-2005 at 04:47 PM.
^Exactly. The hard fouls Manu went through were ridiculous and way harder than Artest's. But he wasn't an idiot like Artest. He didn't even look at Melo when he did that. He just got up and was the same class-act he's always been known to be.
We have been in the top of the East for the last decade... we are one of the few teams who have had successful seasons for the last decade. But yes... your team has always been mentioned as the best for the last decade on the Pacers posting site. We have had much less luck than you guys have had in the playoffs. We have had injury problems for the last two seasons at the end... and I assure you that is a trend that will not happen every year. Jermaine and Tinsley have both been injured the last two playoff attempts. Oh, and of course we did not have Ron last season.Aww, sweetheart... You don't seriously believe they mean that, do you?
Seriously, though. The Pacers have proven absolutely nothing, so you can't really blame us for not taking them seriously and laughing at you guys. If and when the Pacers prove to be the best in the East, we'll talk. Until that day comes, you seriously cannot expect us to feel threatened by your team.
And you say we haven't proven anything???
Open your eyes and take a look at what my team accomplished last season... while we were going through ...
We had only 6 available players for one game... we had over 400 missed games combined for our players from injury and suspensions... and we still made the playoffs over the Cavaliers and many other teams...
Then in the playoffs...
We beat the Boston Celtics in a game 7 on their floor...
When then took Detroit to six games with the following roster...
PG- injured Tinsley
SG- old and very tired and unable to contribute every night Reggie Miller
SF- Stephen Jackson
PF- A one armed left hand available Jermaine O'Neal
C- An old Dale Davis
bench
-A beast... Jeff Foster
-James Jones... who we hated to see leave to PHX
-broken-fingered Fred Jones
-Anthony Johnson
-Austin Croshere... sporting 4 injuries at once... and still trying
That's it
We did after all take Detroit to six games... only one less than what your team accomplished... AND the additions to that team could potentially be greater than your additions...
Sarunas>Oberto
Artest>Finley
Granger could be> Van Exel
and Jonathan Bender is supposed to actually play for us this year too (Jermaine O'Neal claims that when he can play... he is the most skilled player on our team)
Imagine what would have happened to your team if the same bad luck were to befall you...
Your in the playoffs with...
PG- First time playing in three months and still pretty injured Parker
SG- A 40 year old Manu Ginobili
SF- Brent Barry (Bowen is suspended in this scenario)
PF- A one handed (left handed) Tim Duncan
C- An old Nazr
-An improved Nesterovic
-Brent Barry
-Broken fingered Udrih
-Horry sporting four injuries at once... and still trying...
MY QUESTION OF THE DAY???
DO ANY OF YOU BELIEVE YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN DETROIT TO 6 GAMES IF THAT WAS THE ROSTER YOU HAD TO PLAY WITH???
I forgot that it was a crime... or an NBA rule that you cannot do that... at least he wasn't trying to fight Ben Wallace... who had fouled him... choke pushed him... thrown a towel in his face...
I agree he is a moron in real life situations... I hate watching him give interviews... he looks so much better playing ball
I did not know Manu had something like that happen to him... but Manu is a stand-up guy... Ron has anger issues... plus had Manu just been hammered... choke-pushed... had a towel thrown in his face... and then been hit by something? Nope. But I still believe Manu would have handled it better than Ron did. No way Manu would ever jet into the stands. Maybe if someone was kidnapping his child or beating his wife.
Good to see you were paying attention to the Spurs, as a basis to make the comparisons that you're offering in this thread. The play in question happened in a playoff game. If you didn't even watch playoff games, it seems unlikely to me that you can make any type of meaningful comparisons.
Nevertheless, thanks for completely missing the point. Manu didn't face a "choke-push" or a towel in his face because he didn't respond. Manu went about his business and that was that. Had Ron just gone about his business, there wouldn't have been a riot.
It was on Ron. He chose to respond and, ultimately, to undertake criminal actions, regardless of what brought those actions about.
Pacerfans still don't get that they lose any credibility they might have earned when they say those magic words:Jonathan Bender is supposed to actually play for us this year too
Jonathan Bender.
The problem is the officials were not doing their jobs...
-they did not call a flagrant on Ben on the other end...
and they did not immediately eject Artest and/or Ben Wallace... like they are supposed to... and they did not eject Jackson when he was doing his fight dance on the court prior to anything being thrown... towel or cup. I am sorry, but the situation with Manu was far different than the one with Ron. In many different ways.
Yeah, they threw Ron into the stands!The problem is the officials were not doing their jobs.
I know that no riot would have happened had he not left the scorers tables... my point is that Ron did just as bad a job as everyone else involved and described by me earlier... my problem is that Ron is the only one still taking heat for it.
And read closely what I have written about Manu...
PS - I was in Vegas during the Finals... only way I would have been watching would have been if the Pacers were in it. You would have done the same. And I unlike you... do not underestimate your teams abilities. And I do remember seeing that on ESPN... I thought you were refering to an instance where Manu had had something thrown at him.
I understand all that, but all you're doing is spewing out "Ifs" after "Ifs" of things that "could've happened if..." That "would've happened if..." That "didn't happen because...".
You also have to understand that UNTIL the Pacers beat an Eastern Conference team and make it to the finals at last, you would have proven you're the best in the East.
Yeah, I understand your frustration, and yes, I understand you had a lot of things going bad for your team, but regardless of what didn't happen, and what could've happened "if", your team has YET to prove anything.
You do understand that don't you?
Now, good for you that your team will (hopefully) be normal next year, and I don't blame you for looking forward to the season, but I repeat, let your team prove their hype, and then we'll talk.
Until that day comes, expect to see lots of these in response to your posts:
My ass. Manu gave the officials time to do their jobs by choosing not to retaliate. With time, the offiicals called the flagrant and things went as they should have, with no riots. It's precisely the same situation, just handled much much differently and far more responsibly.
Artest didn't even go to the ground, but immediately went after Wallace, which what precipitated all breaking loose.
Whatever you do, be sure to rationalize any criminal behavior that involves a player on your team. Had the roles been reversed, you'd be crucifying Ben Wallace for doing things like Artest did.
Because Ron is the one who had the opportunity to be sure that none of it happened.
Players have pushed other players since the beginning of NBA time. Only when Wallace pushed Artest and when Artest responded like he did, has the event become the riot that we all saw in Detroit.
That is a troll statement my friend...
No, it's called having common sense.
You'd be lying if you told me you wouldn't be angry if a player from your rival team laid down like Artest did in your own arna, disrespecting the out of the fans and your team.
Difference: Manu would've never laid down on the tables, thus would not have had a cup thrown at him...
Were it an Indy board an unprovoked perhaps - but here it is what it is: the truth.That is a troll statement my friend.
You guys are the ones that don't get it... I am simply asking IF (IF, IF, IF) that happened to your team... do you think you guys could have taken Detroit to six games last year... I am just trying to get you all to see that Indiana will be a power house this year... one that COULD rival your own... You guys have not experienced the bad luck we have... had you... I would still consider you guys contenders this year... you guys don't respect what Indiana will be this year... I am trying to get it through to you... Don't make me bring out the I told you so's come June... I want you all to be on the same page with me when we are facing you in the Finals. I promise you that I am not a troll. I will be praising you then... as I have been praising you before... the only bad things I have said about your team is potential matchup problems for you... you guys have been bashing my team horribly. Some of you say it is due to that guy who started this thread... but you are still being mean to me and dumping on my team... I have not dumped on yours once!I understand all that, but all you're doing is spewing out "Ifs" after "Ifs" of things that "could've happened if..." That "would've happened if..." That "didn't happen because...".
You also have to understand that UNTIL the Pacers beat an Eastern Conference team and make it to the finals at last, you would have proven you're the best in the East.
Yeah, I understand your frustration, and yes, I understand you had a lot of things going bad for your team, but regardless of what didn't happen, and what could've happened "if", your team has YET to prove anything.
You do understand that don't you?
Now, good for you that your team will (hopefully) be normal next year, and I don't blame you for looking forward to the season, but I repeat, let your team prove their hype, and then we'll talk.
Until that day comes, expect to see lots of these in response to your posts:
The officials had 3 minutes at least to clear those guys out... put on your glasses and see how different those two situations were.
Ron did not respond to the choke push... he laid down for Christ's sake... and you talk about him like he should be jailed for life... he did run into the stands... but he was not swinging... he held a man down. Again... Vernon Maxwell did far more damage in the stands than Ron did. And again... Maxwell got 10 games.
Explain in what aspect that is disrespectful?
Sorry if we come off that way, but anyone who defends Artest's actions deserves the pounding you're getting.
About the "ifs" about our team, I don't look at them, because obviously, they are all in the past. I seriously don't give a damn about what could've happened had we not been the team we were last year. Now it's your turn to understand THAT.
And no matter how much you try to make it seem like we wouldn't have won the Championship had we played against a healthy Pacer team, I don't really care.
I do think your team will be very good nxt yr. In fact, in the poll about the Eastern finals teams, I voted for your team. But I can't really respect much a team that hasn't proven anything. And let me be clarify that before you go into a rant about it: By "proven anything" I mean at least stepping into a Finals court.
So it's the fault of the NBA officials that Ron Artest couldn't control his temper? Of course, because it couldn't possibly be little Ronnie's fault that he acted like a complete nimrod with no restraint or self-discipline.
Do you have similar excuses for other criminals as well?
Look, saying that means you simply don't know much about our team. You signed a nutcase, he went nuts.You guys have not experienced the bad luck we have.
We sign nutcases, just not in groups of 4 or 5.
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