Detroit Pistons and Flip Saunders

[conqueso]

This is a pointless discussion. Joe Dumars is the best GM in basketball. He has complete player control. He is not going to make a stupid move just because someone tells him to. In Detroit, Flip has a competent GM, who can actually do his job, and let Flip worry about the X's and O's.

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less. Not taking anything away from Dumars, he's awesome, but Buford and Pop have made the best draft picks of any team over the last 8 years, and the '97, '99, and '01 drafts might have been the greatest three draft picks in 6 years of any team, all time. Dumars can't match that success.

And Darrin...it was Manu that really killed the Pistons in Game 7. Having watched that game over and over again, Tim's 3rd quarter wasn't nearly as dominant as the announcers/media made it out to be, and Manu was truly fantastic in the fourth...I've got a play-by-play log of the the second half of that game somewhere in the archives, and I'll look for it if you want it just in case you didn't save-'til-I-delete on TiVo. It's pretty clear after a few viewings that Manu was the unsung hero of that series, and got shafted on the Finals MVP, but you know, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Darrin]

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less. Not taking anything away from Dumars, he's awesome, but Buford and Pop have made the best draft picks of any team over the last 8 years, and the '97, '99, and '01 drafts might have been the greatest three draft picks in 6 years of any team, all time. Dumars can't match that success.

I know there's no one who's going to give up this debate over RC Buford and Joe Dumars, but I have to disagree on the "less with more" debate. The Pistons haven't lost 60 games under Dumars that allowed the bounce of the balls to land the land the premiere big man of his generation. He didn't have that as a selling point for free agents like Brent Barry, Rasho Nesterovic, Michael Finley, and Nick Van Exel.

When Dumars took his job, he didn't have a face to his organization like David Robinson. Two years in, after establishing Jerry Stackhouse as that face, he was shipped to Washington for a little-known Richard Hamilton.

The Pistons averaged 14,000 filled seats at the Palace in 2000-01. Since 2002-03, they have led the league in attendance every season; 108 consecutive sellouts, the longest streak since 1988-1992. He's made the Pistons relevant again.

Buford didn't have a body blow like Grant Hill leaving a month into being on the job. He didn't pluck Rick Carlisle out of the broadcast booth to win two division les and make a trip to the Conference Finals.

Each of the Pistons last two coaches have been the most successful in their rookie season:

Larry Brown - 54-32, 2003-04 (First rookie coach to win a playoff series).
Rick Carlisle - 50-32, 2001-02 (First rookie coach to win an NBA le).
Chuck Daly - 49-33, 1983-84.

Flip Saunders is on record to shatter this record (.866 winning percentage, a 71-win pace over the course of a season).

Dumars late-round draft record:
Brian Cardinal (44th in 2000)
Mehmet Okur (38th in 2001)
Tayshaun Prince (23rd in 2002)
Carlos Delfino (25th in 2003)
And a couple of names you will be hearing in the future:
Jason Maxiell (26th in 2005)
Amir Johnson (56th in 2005)

Joe Dumars signed the 2004 Finals MVP, and reigning Player of the Month Chauncey Billups to a Mid-Level exception contract. Bruce Bowen is making more money than Chauncey.

Look at the leap of faith:

June 1997 - February 1998: Boston Celtics - 51 games, 11.1 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.51 spg. Traded for Kenny Anderson.

February 1998 - January 1999: Toronto Raptors - 29 games, 11.3 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 1.03 spg. Traded for Zeljko Rebraca.

January 1999 - February 2000: Denver Nuggets - 58 games, 12.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.17 spg.

February 2000 - August 2000: Orlando Magic - 0 games, injured in Denver before traded. Signed as Free Agent.

August 2000 - July 2002: Minnesota Timberwolves - 159 games, 10.9 ppg, 4.7 apg, 2.4 rpg, .73 spg. Signed as Free Agent.

July 2002 - Present: Detroit Pistons - 276 games, 16.9 ppg, 5.7 apg, 3.5 rpg,
.93 spg.


Joe Dumars turned Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and Chucky Atkins into Rasheed Wallace. Joe Dumars turned John Wallace and Jud Buechler in Cliff Robinson.

The Pistons have posted a (279-176) .624 winning percentage (one losing season) in the last five and a half seasons, four trips to the playoffs (43-32), three division les, three trips to the Conference Finals, two trips to the NBA Finals, and an NBA Championship.

The Pistons posted a (236-224) .513 winning percentage (two losing seasons) in the six seasons before Joe Dumars became GM. Four trips to the playoffs (4-12), no division les, no advancement past the first round.

The Pistons have won Coach of the Year (2001-02, first since 1973-74), Sixth Man of the Year (2001-02, first in history of franchise), and Defensive Player of the Year (2001-02, 2002-03, 2004-05, first since 1990-91), all personnel Joe Dumars hired. Dumars was recognized as the 2002-03 General Manger of the Year.

Before Joe Dumars, no foreign born players had ever played for the Detroit Pistons. Dumars hired Tony Ranzone, the Dallas Mavericks former foreign scout of the Dallas Mavericks. Zeljko Rebraca, Rakto Varda, Pepe Sanchez, Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Carlos Arroyo, and Darko Milicic have all logged minutes for the Pistons under Dumars.

The Pistons hadn't played in summer league compe ion since 1991-92 when Dumars took over, a 10-year absence.

Say that RC Buford was revolutionary in terms of scouting the world stage, say he's a GM who's been able to negotiate with David Robinson to Bruce Bowen to take less than their market value. But the one area where Dumars smokes his compe ion is in the "less is more" department, and in taking chances.

When Dumars took this job, he was introduced with George Irvine because no one else wanted to to coach the Pistons. Grant Hill wasn't willing to give Dumars even a year to figure out if he could do it. Dumars then took a revolutionary approach to building a Championship team - a balance between all positions.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I know there's no one who's going to give up this debate over RC Buford and Joe Dumars, but I have to disagree on the "less with more" debate. The Pistons haven't lost 60 games under Dumars that allowed the bounce of the balls to land the land the premiere big man of his generation. He didn't have that as a selling point for free agents like Brent Barry, Rasho Nesterovic, Michael Finley, and Nick Van Exel.

When Dumars took his job, he didn't have a face to his organization like David Robinson. Two years in, after establishing Jerry Stackhouse as that face, he was shipped to Washington for a little-known Richard Hamilton.

The Pistons averaged 14,000 filled seats at the Palace in 2000-01. Since 2002-03, they have led the league in attendance every season; 108 consecutive sellouts, the longest streak since 1988-1992. He's made the Pistons relevant again.

Buford didn't have a body blow like Grant Hill leaving a month into being on the job. He didn't pluck Rick Carlisle out of the broadcast booth to win two division les and make a trip to the Conference Finals.

Each of the Pistons last two coaches have been the most successful in their rookie season:

Larry Brown - 54-32, 2003-04.
Rick Carlisle - 50-32, 2001-02.
Chuck Daly - 49-33, 1983-84.

Flip Saunders is on record to shatter this record (.866 winning percentage, a 71-win pace over the course of a season).

Dumars late-round draft record:
Brian Cardinal (44th in 2000)
Mehmet Okur (38th in 2001)
Tayshaun Prince (23rd in 2002)
Carlos Delfino (25th in 2003)
And a couple of names you will be hearing in the future:
Jason Maxiell (26th in 2005)
Amir Johnson (56th in 2005)

Joe Dumars signed the 2004 Finals MVP, and reigning Player of the Month Chauncey Billups to a Mid-Level exception contract. Bruce Bowen is making more money than Chauncey.

Look at the leap of faith:

June 1997 - February 1998: Boston Celtics - 51 games, 11.1 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.51 spg. Traded for Kenny Anderson.

February 1998 - January 1999: Toronto Raptors - 29 games, 11.3 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 1.03 spg. Traded for Zeljko Rebraca.

January 1999 - February 2000: Denver Nuggets - 58 games, 12.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.17 spg.

February 2000 - August 2000: Orlando Magic - 0 games, injured in Denver before traded. Signed as Free Agent.

August 2000 - July 2002: Minnesota Timberwolves - 159 games, 10.9 ppg, 4.7 apg, 2.4 rpg, .73 spg. Signed as Free Agent.

July 2002 - Present: Detroit Pistons - 276 games, 16.9 ppg, 5.7 apg, 3.5 rpg,
.93 spg.


Joe Dumars turned Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and Chucky Atkins into Rasheed Wallace. Joe Dumars turned John Wallace and Jud Buechler in Cliff Robinson.

The Pistons have posted a (279-176) .624 winning percentage (one losing season) in the last five and a half seasons, four trips to the playoffs (43-32), three division les, three trips to the Conference Finals, two trips to the NBA Finals, and an NBA Championship.

The Pistons posted a (236-224) .513 winning percentage (two losing seasons) in the six seasons before Joe Dumars became GM. Four trips to the playoffs (4-12), no division les, no advancement past the first round.

The Pistons have won Coach of the Year (2001-02, first since 1973-74), Sixth Man of the Year (2001-02, first in history of franchise), and Defensive Player of the Year (2001-02, 2002-03, 2004-05, first since 1990-91), all personnel Joe Dumars hired. Dumars was recognized as the 2002-03 General Manger of the Year.

Before Joe Dumars, no foreign born players had ever played for the Detroit Pistons. Dumars hired Tony Ranzone, the Dallas Mavericks former foreign scout of the Dallas Mavericks. Zeljko Rebraca, Rakto Varda, Pepe Sanchez, Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Carlos Arroyo, and Darko Milicic have all logged minutes for the Pistons under Dumars.

The Pistons hadn't played in summer league compe ion since 1991-92 when Dumars took over, a 10-year absence.

Say that RC Buford was revolutionary in terms of scouting the world stage, say he's a GM who's been able to negotiate with David Robinson to Bruce Bowen to take less than their market value. But the one area where Dumars smokes his compe ion is in the "less is more" department, and in taking chances.

When Dumars took this job, he was introduced with George Irvine because no one else wanted to to coach the Pistons. Grant Hill wasn't willing to give Dumars even a year to figure out if he could do it. Dumars then took a revolutionary approach to building a Championship team - a balance between all positions.

(applauds)

and that settles that dispute

good argument

Joe Dumars and RC Buford AKA the "Anti Isiahs"

[Amuseddaysleeper]

First off, believe it or not, as much as I criticize the Spurs at every oppurtunity I get, stepping into Boutons-Sequ territory, I LOVE my spurs. I've been watching them back when I used to live in Saudi Arabia getting up 3-4 in the morning on a schoolnight just so I could watch them live. and after reading all the debates about how flip could fail in the playoffs or how the spurs will "turn it on" in the second half, and how health will play into it (which is a big issue no doubt) but I think everyone is forgetting the biggest factor that will determine the Finals


Motivation


and its ALL in detroit's favor. I mean you guys have to understand, this team has been determined and FOCUSED since DAY 1 of the season at the tip off so they could have HCA and every other advantage when the time comes to step on the court in June. I know a lot of teams use their season as a building block to shape up for the playoffs (obviously) but I don't think the NBA has seen a team this hungry and motivated in years I hear all this talk about Duncan owning Sheed, Parker destroying the Pistons frontcourt, and ummm........I wont name names but I know SOMEONE mentioned a Spurs sweep??? This road trip which is where we're supposed to "come together" and "click on all cylinders" is hogwash so far. I mean lets be realistic. OK, you're playing on the road, its gonna be a lot tougher than playing at home. but to BARELY beat NON Playoff teams by LESS THAN FIVE POINTS is not exactly dominance. Yes there were some games that were back to backs but guess what, GS didnt have Richardson and we barely survived. And I know some of you will say that these "gutsy" (which is a polite way off saying "hanging on to win") games will improve us in close game situations but there is a HUGE difference in a close game w/ GS and Portland and other lottery teams and then playing Detroit. if we cant even dominate the lottery teams how are we even going to get into a SITUATION for a "close" game with Detroit?? I dont care how healthy Duncan is, it'll be a factor, but I promise you he wont "own" anybody. He'll have his good games and then he'll have his god awful games where we'll see the famous "Duncan has gone without a FG in last 26:47 of Play" which we see more and more often. Yeah, he's got PF, which I dont doubt hurts like a , but even if he cures it somehow before the playoffs, Rasheed ALWAYS plays tim hard. If anything Rasheed has a slight edge in the category of being able to defend and block TD"s show almost at will, while being able to shoot OVER TD anytime he wants and nailing it (tho I def. believe TD is the better player, I just think Sheed gives him the toughest matchup in the league, moreso than KG). Duncan's outside game is zilch. his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!". As for Parker dominating the frontcourt of Detroit. Here's what'll happen........Parker will whip off 10 1st quarter points in about 6 minutes at the most. then detroit will pack the lane, knock TP to the ground a bit, and we'll continue to miss from the outside. Yes, 3's were HUGE for us in last year's finals, but frankly, our FG% is bloated due to Parker's amazing in the paint buckets which will decrease by the game when he comes across a monster like Ben Wallace. But forget all these stats and all these other things. I think Detroit simply wants it more. And ESPECIALLY against the Spurs. They arent gonna take any chances and they're gonna finish their business. I mean if we thought Detroit was tough in the regular season wait till the finals come and they get revenge. I know i come off as a closet pistons fan but its hard not to respect what this team is accomplishing. I also hope and pray that the spurs wake up and go on a 16 game win streak just dominating teams left, right, and center but I think we're a LOT further away from where we need to be (which is probably being the greatest spurs team in franchise history in order to beat detroit, yes folks I'm serious, once again the motivation factor is HUGE) I hope I'm wrong and I can look back at this post and laugh like I did when i freaked out prior to game 7 when we got whooped during game 6. But sadly, Detroit just has the heart right now. Which can count for more doubles doubles, 3 pointers, and free throws that could ever matter in a finals game. I dont care about the Mavs, Heat, Suns or anyone else. I do feel confident that we can beat those teams in a 7 game series no problem. But it all comes down to Detroit. They are really the only team that WE should be preparing for. The only guy on our team who will ALWAYS bring it is Manu. If the rest of the team could have 1/10000000000 that this guy does then I'm sure the matchup would be a of a lot more even. I mean we're STILL getting our asses handed to us on the boards by weak ass front lines.

So basically what I'm saying is, I dont care what Flip has done in the past, wether he's a choker in the playoffs or an overachiever who never had the right complete team with the right characters till now. I dont even think Flip is gonna matter much to be honest. Its gonna be all on the Pistons players. Flip wasnt there last year, he doesnt know how it felt. If anything he's just along for the ride, giving the Pistons more freedom than they've ever had. He probably wont even say anything much before game 1 except for "Rasheed, please take off your headphones I'm trying to talk" followed by a "whatevs yo whatevs" comment from sheed. All I know is, if the spurs dont just wake up phsycially, but mentally as well, its gonna be a real quick series and if you think otherwise its gonna be a slow month of june for you.


having sad all that the biggest factors for us to have any hope are......

- REBOUNDING....We cant afford to have a -20 rebounding average and expect to win. Start Nazr and have him honestly set a goal of 20 rebounds per game against detroit (which wont happen at all but we need to drill the point home about rebounding)

- Containing Chauncey and Tayshaun.....I think Bruce will do fine on Rip, but Chauncey is a deadly weapon and bruce cant cover both him and rip at the same time. I also think Tayshaun will be a bigger factor in this year's finals as I think LB played tayshaun to little last year. the only guy who can stop tayshaun is TD and td will have his hands full with both wallaces

- Play EVERY second of all 7 games like they are your last. no let downs, no "we're up by 10 lets take some time off" Pop needs to just go all out w/ the trio of manu, td, and tp and add nazr and horry in there for rebounding. I think Finley is a flat out bust like many spurs FA's seem to be. I cringe at the thought of NVE running down the floor 1 on 4 as the pistons get into position with the spurs on their way, and then NVE pulls up for an ill fated 3 that ruins our momentun and cuts our 8-1 run short as the pistons come back to sustain the lead and even expand on it thanks to NVE moronic shot selection.


It's gonna be tough and I just dont see us winning the series. But like I said. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm incredibly pessimistic but barring a major injury from detroit I have a bad feeling its gonna be our turn to ponder a summer of what might have been.

[Darrin]

And Darrin...it was Manu that really killed the Pistons in Game 7. Having watched that game over and over again, Tim's 3rd quarter wasn't nearly as dominant as the announcers/media made it out to be, and Manu was truly fantastic in the fourth...I've got a play-by-play log of the the second half of that game somewhere in the archives, and I'll look for it if you want it just in case you didn't save-'til-I-delete on TiVo. It's pretty clear after a few viewings that Manu was the unsung hero of that series, and got shafted on the Finals MVP, but you know, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Believe what you want. I suggest, if you have the game, watch from the 9:30 mark of the third quarter until the end of the third. Watch how many times Duncan posts, and is denied the ball. See that at 4:01 remaining in the quarter McDyess heads to bench with 4 fouls. Watch Duncan post-up Prince and while trapped by Hamilton, draws and and-1 that pulls the Spurs within one and gets the crowd on its feet with 3:30 left to play in the quarter, and never sits down after that. Watch how Ben Wallace is so preoccupied with the Duncan, that he can no longer help as Ginobili gets all the way to the basket. Watch how on the next offensive possession that Wallace gambles for the tip-back off a bad Lindsey Hunter shot and Duncan easily rebounds with no one to block him out. Watch how Wallace, who doesn't usually leave the paint, allows a clear pass to Duncan at 18 feet, and Duncan nails the shot to give the Spurs the lead.

Watch how the Pistons, with both Hamilton and Billups stop moving the basketball now that McDyess is no longer out there to nail jumpers. Watch how effective the 2-3-2 zone becomes as the Pistons break down into one-on-one play.

Notice how effective the ballhandler handing right corner skip feed to right block becomes. Notice how when Ben Wallace loses Duncan, there is no helpside defense. Notice that once Rasheed comes in, he's not guarding Duncan because of fear he'll pick up another foul, and that means, again, the Pistons best helpside defender can't stop the guard penetration. Then watch the 9:30 possession of the fourth quarter. With Rasheed back on Duncan, no penetration for Ginobili, and Duncan loses the ball out of bounds. Notice how this sends Duncan to the bench.

Now when the Spurs go on their run, they are not doing it with Duncan. They are not doing it with an 8-point deficit. They are doing it with a one-point lead. This game was won in the third quarter.

Duncan was 5-17 with 11 points with 4:01 left in the fourth. Up until that foul, while a spirited contest, I saw nothing to indicate a game-changing run. It was a standard close basketball game run. From that point on, Duncan went for 3-5 from the field, 3-3 from the line with 9 points, and seals Wallace for no helpside defense on a Ginobili lay-in. The game, in that four minutes, went from a 52-46 Pistons lead after the Spurs cut it to two, to a 57-57 game on a last-second jumper by Lindsey Hunter entering the fourth.

[Warlord23]

^^ Good post. Foul trouble reduced the Piston frontcourt's effectiveness. That opened up opportunities not just for Duncan but for Manu's slashing game in that key stretch that saw the Spurs erase the deficit. The Pistons' frontcourt was the biggest problem facing the Spurs through that series, and no doubt will again be the key to any future encounters.

An example of the frontcourt effectiveness was in Detroit's game against Philly yesterday. The Sixers were trying desperately to get back into the game, but they couldn't get the 2 or 3 stops that could have made the difference. When the Pistons did miss, someone tipped an offensive board for a fresh 24. Prince got 3 chances one after the other, and finally made the 3rd one.

This season the Spurs' rebounding has been less than stellar. Apart from Duncan, the Spurs have no-one with the rebounding caliber of Wallace, Wallace, McDyess. I know Horry is taking it easy now and will probably step up a few gears in the postseason, but we really need Nazr and Rasho to improve their rebounding. Nazr is pretty good in rebounds per 48 mins (14.8 is better than everyone on the Spurs and Pistons except Duncan and Ben; Rasho is at 9.5). I hope he figures out the defensive rotations down the stretch run of the regular season.

[SequSpur]

one day i might get to reading this topic but its going to be tough....

anything over 5-6 lines is considered a book for me.

I wonder if their are any good Rasho arguments.

[boutons_]

Spurs weak rebounding isn't Tim's fault, it's not Razr's fault.
It's lack of team rebounding desire and hustle.

Tim is averaging 12 RB, the Spurs 42. That's 30 RBs by non-Tim.

Spurs avg a middle-NBA +1.36 RBs (Pistons only +1.04)

Rebounding is a team effort.

If Tony, Bruce, Manu, Razr could all average just 1 RB more per game, Spurs could be +4 or +5 RBs, best in NBA (Jazz are a +4.68 RB)

[JamStone]

Man, I wanted to respond to this thread a while ago, but all the long posts, I haven't had the motivation to get through them all. I'm sure it's a real great discussion. Maybe I'll read the thread in its entirety later.

But, I do want to make a few comments, to share my OWN LONG POST ...


Flip has a poor playoff record, and I think it should concern Pistons fans. His open style of offense may not be as effective in the post-season when defenses tighten up. But, right now, all we can do is wait for the playoffs and see how things work out. While I think there is some merit for trepidation on how Flip will coach in the post season, I think there is more credence to the notion that the actual players more so than the coaching determines success. I am not saying coaching does not help or does not make a team better. But, I do believe the ultimate credit and/or blame should be largely placed on the players and how they perform. And, while there can be many criticisms of Flip's coaching in the playoffs, the only way to fairly judge him as a playoff coach for the Pistons is to wait and see him coach in the playoffs AS THE PISTONS HEAD COACH.

Pat Riley is not less of a coach because he was not able to win NBA les in New York or Miami. And, just as fairly, he cannot be held as the main reason the Lakers won those five championships in the 1980s. Phil Jackson is one of the few coaches who has won les with multiple teams, but having two of the arguably 5 best players in the history of the game doesn't hurt either.

There are some great coaches in the NBA, in all of sports. But, I subscribe to the theory that the players make the coach more often than the coach makes the players. Again, it doesn't mean that the coach never makes players better. I just fully adhere to giving credit mainly to the players who actually perform on the court/field and are primarily responsible for the success.


As for the Pistons fatigue and injury issues ... the topic has been discussed so many times. Yes, if the Pistons lose one of their starters to a major injury, they will not be the same team and will likely not have the success they've had so far. I think that is the same case with every team in the NBA when one of their main players go down. It just so happens that in the Detroit Pistons' case, it is ALL FIVE of their starters. But, same could be said of Dallas if they lose Dirk Nowitzki, Phoenix if they lose Steve Nash (though they have been relatively impressive without Amare), the Clippers without Brand, the Nets without Carter or Kidd. The Spurs have actually been quite impressive with the injury to Manu and a hobbled Duncan. But, even Spurs fans can admit they believe they'd be even better if both were mostly healthy. Same thing goes for the Pistons. If they are mostly healthy, they are a very good team, maybe even great. Without any of their starters, they are less than that. Maybe they could not stay afloat like Phoenix and San Antonio have so far. As a Pistons fan, I hope they don't have to find out how they would cope without one of their starters.

And, as for fatigue, I'm sure at some point in the season, one or several of the starters will feel the effects of fatigue. Ben Wallace has already had a handful of games (mostly on back-to-back second games) where his legs were just not there. I think one could argue that any NBA starters who plays 35+ minutes per game and plays all their team's regular season games will feel the effects of fatigue at some point. And, players like LeBron, Kobe, Iverson all play close to or over 40 minutes a game. Those championship teams have to deal with it. That's the rigors of the NBA season. Of course they'll feel fatigue. It is those teams whose players feel that fatigue but are still able to perform and execute who will ultimately be champions. All teams that make it deep in the playoffs are banged up, bruised, and tired. To think that the Pistons will be more so just because all five of their starters log a good amount of minutes is really reaching for something. With those heavy minutes, they also share the burden of scoring and defense. While a player like Paul Pierce faces double and triple teams every possession, or a player like Allen Iverson or Dwyane Wade gets knocked to the floor a dozen or so times in a game, the Pistons players often find themselves not being double teamed, and there are games in which any one of the players carries the burden of scoring or the majority of defensive responsbility. In that way, much of the pressures that lead to fatigue are diminished by the style of play. Take that into consideration. Realize that even though Duncan plays a little fewer minutes than most of the Pistons players, he gets triple teamed and hacked much more than any of them. Same with Manu. Iverson in 60 games at over 40 minutes a game will play less minutes overall than Chauncey or Rip, but I guarantee you that he is still more beat up and will be much more likely to feel the effects of fatigue. Same with LeBron. The fact that five players are almost equally responsible to contribute at both ends of the floor in a way helps with what some people claim will make the starters so fatigued. There is no reliance on one or two players night in and night out. Chauncey might score 35 points one night and score 7 points the next. Tayshaun might be held to single digit scoring and get a couple of rebounds and asists one night, then flirt with a triple double the next. It goes the same with Rip and Rasheed. When they might not have their best game or for some reason are not playing well, the team still has a chance to win. Fatigue is a very subjective barometer, especially for each individual athlete. Ben and Rip may not feel the same effects in the same amount of minutes as say Quentin Richardson and Eddy Curry. Maybe they are better conditioned to take the large amount of minutes over the course of the season. Something to think about.

[polandprzem]

All I can say is that we have great Detroit fans on this board.
Now it more looks like the real forum (like I am on the polish one with the post no just in one or two lines)

[FreshPrince22]

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less.

More with less? The guy took over a team with the best player in the league (Tim Duncan), already on the team. Joe Dumars, on the other hand, has completely reconstructed this team. The only guy that is still here from 5 years ago when Dumars started is Lindsey Hunter. And even he was traded during that period, and resigned later. Every Free Agent deal/trade turns into gold. Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, McDyess, etc. , he's got Ben Wallace and Chauncey on MLE deals. That's just ridiculous. Both are playing like Max money players right now.

[leemajors]

i think he meant they do more with less draft picks, besides duncan they haven't had a high draft pick in a while. they have drafted pretty well in the late first round and second round

[himat]

Who Gives a ?

The Spurs won it. They blew the Pistons out in Game 1 and 2. Got blown in Game 3 and 4.

Horry won Game 5. Pistons kicked ass in Game 6.

Pistons kicked ass for 46 minutes in Game 7. Spurs kicked ass in the 47th and 48th minute.

Spurs won. It was a very good final series. Hopefully it will happen again, but I am guessing that Hollywood Parker is going to destroy your front court and you all will be crying again.

Spurs in 4.

you got to be kidding. i know you know neither team will sweep you would never say that if you had to put money on it.

[himat]

No personal attack from this side of the aisle.

Fact: 7-9 in the fourth quarter. Duncan, at one point, shot 3-16. He finished with 10-27. He killed the Pistons in the fourth, and that's where they lost the game.

i don't know what lb was thinking. did he think he could get away with putting prince on duncan. it gets me angry because going in to the 4th dice and sheed both had 2 fouls to give. tay is a great defender, but he isn't an interior defender.

[sickdsm]

This is a pointless discussion. Joe Dumars is the best GM in basketball. He has complete player control. He is not going to make a stupid move just because someone tells him to. In Detroit, Flip has a competent GM, who can actually do his job, and let Flip worry about the X's and O's.

Not really, its VERY valid. Lets suddenly imagine that Popovich the GM consistanly brought in PGs that were gunners. Troy Hudson, Eddie house type players to run the pt and sent passing pgs on there way. When popovich takes over the reigns as coach do you suddenly think he's going to change his beliefs and style? Fact is fact, becase of Flips stlye of play and what he wants to do we said goodbye to our two toughest pgs in history in Bobby Jackson and Billups.

Pistons Iden y is slowly changing from Defense to a really fun team to watch. Changing coaches will change the philospy from "what size ring do you wear to wait till next regular season" Think about it, no team in their right mind that revolves around defense would want to shoot more threes then absolute neccesary. Long shots=long rebounds=fast break opportunities. The key to defensive teams is to get the D set up in a halfcourt offense. ESPECIALLY don't have your PF shooting any bc rebounding is key to defense. Face this too, your backcourt may be the key to your offense, but the wallaces are getting old and your whole team has been blessed lack of major injuries for a while now. As much of a boon it is to have a great offense, it DOES lead to more activity than in prior years for chances of injuries

This is a one shot chance for Flip to redeem himself or he forever turns into Henry Winkler the coach from Waterboy but without any Adam Sandler's to bring him out of his rut IMO.

[polandprzem]

Darko was a great move

[Obstructed_View]

Darko was a great move

He wins GM of the decade for that one. Spurs in 5.

[FreshPrince22]

Not really, its VERY valid. Lets suddenly imagine that Popovich the GM consistanly brought in PGs that were gunners. Troy Hudson, Eddie house type players to run the pt and sent passing pgs on there way. When popovich takes over the reigns as coach do you suddenly think he's going to change his beliefs and style? Fact is fact, becase of Flips stlye of play and what he wants to do we said goodbye to our two toughest pgs in history in Bobby Jackson and Billups.

At what point before this year was Chauncey Billups a "passing PG"?? The guy has been a "gunner" untill this year.

Pistons Iden y is slowly changing from Defense to a really fun team to watch.

A team can't be fun to watch and play defense? That's news to me. They're just a defensive team that can score now. They're giving up a whopping 0.5 more points per game. And even that number is off because the Pistons are involved in so much garbage time where D gets soft.

Changing coaches will change the philospy from "what size ring do you wear to wait till next regular season"

You clearly don't know this team. Their entire focus of the regular season is to get HCA, because that's what cost them back-to-back rings last year.

Think about it, no team in their right mind that revolves around defense would want to shoot more threes then absolute neccesary. Long shots=long rebounds=fast break opportunities. The key to defensive teams is to get the D set up in a halfcourt offense. ESPECIALLY don't have your PF shooting any bc rebounding is key to defense.

Rasheed shot about 250 threes each of the last 2 years under Larry Brown. How come it's fine under him, but not under Flip? Because LB's some sort of genius, right?

Face this too, your backcourt may be the key to your offense, but the wallaces are getting old and your whole team has been blessed lack of major injuries for a while now. As much of a boon it is to have a great offense, it DOES lead to more activity than in prior years for chances of injuries

The Pistons also have the best strength and conditioning coaches in the league (Arnie Kander, Mike Abdenour). Ask around, players will pretty consistantly say those are the best guys in the league. Arnie Kander in particular. Injuries happen. If they happen to this team, it won't be because of the "new offense". If anything, our chances of injury are down with this offense because they aren't breaking off plays anymore. They're executing much better. And you can call Ben and Sheed "old" all you want, but you should look at the minutes. Neither of them have played even close to the career minutes of KG. It's a lot more about the miles on the body than the age. Not only is Big Ben in the best shape in the league, he also has fairly light miles on his body due to not playing starter minutes untill he became a Piston.

This is a one shot chance for Flip to redeem himself or he forever turns into Henry Winkler the coach from Waterboy but without any Adam Sandler's to bring him out of his rut IMO.

uh.... ok?

[FreshPrince22]

Darko was a great move

Darko has a ring, doesn't he?

[polandprzem]

Darko has a ring, doesn't he?

yup - he was fantastic.

[leemajors]

lb took the clip to the playoffs, that = genius

[5ToolMan]

More with less? The guy took over a team with the best player in the league (Tim Duncan), already on the team. Joe Dumars, on the other hand, has completely reconstructed this team. The only guy that is still here from 5 years ago when Dumars started is Lindsey Hunter. And even he was traded during that period, and resigned later. Every Free Agent deal/trade turns into gold. Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, McDyess, etc. , he's got Ben Wallace and Chauncey on MLE deals. That's just ridiculous. Both are playing like Max money players right now.

You should give RC more credit for his work in developing the Spurs as the most effective scout in the NBA since 1994. He is the one who put the Spurs light years ahead of the NBA in evaluating NBA quality talent throughout the World.

RC was quickly promoted to director of scouting, then to GM in 2002, then to Vice President of Basketball and GM in 2004 because of his great contributions at all levels. Not only are Manu and Parker perhaps two of the best steals in NBA Draft History, RC and the Spurs have 4 or 5 players stashed on the farm in Europe that would now be lottery picks.

[clingman]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

you can't beat the spurs by hitting 3's.... like the suns

you can't beat the spurs by NEVER taking 3's.... like the pistons

Detroit is much better balanced this year, thus making the spurs have to play a more balanced defense then they had to last year. That should help detroit this year. time will tell

[clingman]

He's saying Sheed can't guard Duncan when it counts. Oh say, last 5 mins of a finals game perhaps.

Think i'll take my chances with sheed over Prince.... our "hall of fame" coach decided to do that..... lol

quote out of detroit news with dyess speaking about his frustration of being taken out of game 7 with his 4 fouls while SA made there come back. He said something to the effect that he wished he could have used his 6 fouls up in the game. He is a reserve and that he would have liked the chance to use them up.

so everybody can talk about Flip and his playoff mistakes... trust us detroit fans we watched more then our share of brown playoff mistakes the last 2 years. and listening to the talking heads tell us how he was winning all our games.... sigh

We shall see in the playoffs what Flip has, he's got a ton of pressure to win it all, but he also has never had the talent he's had this year (minus Garnett)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Here's a repost


First off, believe it or not, as much as I criticize the Spurs at every oppurtunity I get, stepping into Boutons-Sequ territory, I LOVE my spurs. I've been watching them back when I used to live in Saudi Arabia getting up 3-4 in the morning on a schoolnight just so I could watch them live. and after reading all the debates about how flip could fail in the playoffs or how the spurs will "turn it on" in the second half, and how health will play into it (which is a big issue no doubt) but I think everyone is forgetting the biggest factor that will determine the Finals


Motivation


and its ALL in detroit's favor. I mean you guys have to understand, this team has been determined and FOCUSED since DAY 1 of the season at the tip off so they could have HCA and every other advantage when the time comes to step on the court in June. I know a lot of teams use their season as a building block to shape up for the playoffs (obviously) but I don't think the NBA has seen a team this hungry and motivated in years I hear all this talk about Duncan owning Sheed, Parker destroying the Pistons frontcourt, and ummm........I wont name names but I know SOMEONE mentioned a Spurs sweep??? This road trip which is where we're supposed to "come together" and "click on all cylinders" is hogwash so far. I mean lets be realistic. OK, you're playing on the road, its gonna be a lot tougher than playing at home. but to BARELY beat NON Playoff teams by LESS THAN FIVE POINTS is not exactly dominance. Yes there were some games that were back to backs but guess what, GS didnt have Richardson and we barely survived. And I know some of you will say that these "gutsy" (which is a polite way off saying "hanging on to win") games will improve us in close game situations but there is a HUGE difference in a close game w/ GS and Portland and other lottery teams and then playing Detroit. if we cant even dominate the lottery teams how are we even going to get into a SITUATION for a "close" game with Detroit?? I dont care how healthy Duncan is, it'll be a factor, but I promise you he wont "own" anybody. He'll have his good games and then he'll have his god awful games where we'll see the famous "Duncan has gone without a FG in last 26:47 of Play" which we see more and more often. Yeah, he's got PF, which I dont doubt hurts like a , but even if he cures it somehow before the playoffs, Rasheed ALWAYS plays tim hard. If anything Rasheed has a slight edge in the category of being able to defend and block TD"s show almost at will, while being able to shoot OVER TD anytime he wants and nailing it (tho I def. believe TD is the better player, I just think Sheed gives him the toughest matchup in the league, moreso than KG). Duncan's outside game is zilch. his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!". As for Parker dominating the frontcourt of Detroit. Here's what'll happen........Parker will whip off 10 1st quarter points in about 6 minutes at the most. then detroit will pack the lane, knock TP to the ground a bit, and we'll continue to miss from the outside. Yes, 3's were HUGE for us in last year's finals, but frankly, our FG% is bloated due to Parker's amazing in the paint buckets which will decrease by the game when he comes across a monster like Ben Wallace. But forget all these stats and all these other things. I think Detroit simply wants it more. And ESPECIALLY against the Spurs. They arent gonna take any chances and they're gonna finish their business. I mean if we thought Detroit was tough in the regular season wait till the finals come and they get revenge. I know i come off as a closet pistons fan but its hard not to respect what this team is accomplishing. I also hope and pray that the spurs wake up and go on a 16 game win streak just dominating teams left, right, and center but I think we're a LOT further away from where we need to be (which is probably being the greatest spurs team in franchise history in order to beat detroit, yes folks I'm serious, once again the motivation factor is HUGE) I hope I'm wrong and I can look back at this post and laugh like I did when i freaked out prior to game 7 when we got whooped during game 6. But sadly, Detroit just has the heart right now. Which can count for more doubles doubles, 3 pointers, and free throws that could ever matter in a finals game. I dont care about the Mavs, Heat, Suns or anyone else. I do feel confident that we can beat those teams in a 7 game series no problem. But it all comes down to Detroit. They are really the only team that WE should be preparing for. The only guy on our team who will ALWAYS bring it is Manu. If the rest of the team could have 1/10000000000 that this guy does then I'm sure the matchup would be a of a lot more even. I mean we're STILL getting our asses handed to us on the boards by weak ass front lines.

So basically what I'm saying is, I dont care what Flip has done in the past, wether he's a choker in the playoffs or an overachiever who never had the right complete team with the right characters till now. I dont even think Flip is gonna matter much to be honest. Its gonna be all on the Pistons players. Flip wasnt there last year, he doesnt know how it felt. If anything he's just along for the ride, giving the Pistons more freedom than they've ever had. He probably wont even say anything much before game 1 except for "Rasheed, please take off your headphones I'm trying to talk" followed by a "whatevs yo whatevs" comment from sheed. All I know is, if the spurs dont just wake up phsycially, but mentally as well, its gonna be a real quick series and if you think otherwise its gonna be a slow month of june for you.


having sad all that the biggest factors for us to have any hope are......

- REBOUNDING....We cant afford to have a -20 rebounding average and expect to win. Start Nazr and have him honestly set a goal of 20 rebounds per game against detroit (which wont happen at all but we need to drill the point home about rebounding)

- Containing Chauncey and Tayshaun.....I think Bruce will do fine on Rip, but Chauncey is a deadly weapon and bruce cant cover both him and rip at the same time. I also think Tayshaun will be a bigger factor in this year's finals as I think LB played tayshaun to little last year. the only guy who can stop tayshaun is TD and td will have his hands full with both wallaces

- Play EVERY second of all 7 games like they are your last. no let downs, no "we're up by 10 lets take some time off" Pop needs to just go all out w/ the trio of manu, td, and tp and add nazr and horry in there for rebounding. I think Finley is a flat out bust like many spurs FA's seem to be. I cringe at the thought of NVE running down the floor 1 on 4 as the pistons get into position with the spurs on their way, and then NVE pulls up for an ill fated 3 that ruins our momentun and cuts our 8-1 run short as the pistons come back to sustain the lead and even expand on it thanks to NVE moronic shot selection.


It's gonna be tough and I just dont see us winning the series. But like I said. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm incredibly pessimistic but barring a major injury from detroit I have a bad feeling its gonna be our turn to ponder a summer of what might have been.