Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[Extra Stout]

Yes, stout, but my claim was that to make lotto wrong because excessive use is bad is equivalent to making shoe shopping wrong because excessive spending is bad. Do not say that to buy a lottery ticket is wrong, but say to make your children starve for your hobby is wrong, anything can be taken too far, and not just the lottery.

Well, I totally agree with your point then. I was comparing moderate play of the game with a sweepatakes or a raffle. If somebody wants to drop some of their leisure money on lottery tickets, then I don't see anything wrong with it. Their stewardship is their business.

Now biblically, there are cases where it is considered wise to avoid behaviors that are perfectly OK in moderation, but that might set an example for others who have a weakness in that area to go too far. So, if a church is located somewhere where a lot of people have a gambling problem, it might be wise for mature church members to avoid gambling. If a church is located somewhere where alcoholism is a concern, it might be wise to avoid drinking alcohol around some people, or for elders to avoid it entirely. It doesn't mean that the lottery or wine are bad. But it may behoove a Christian to think about whether his actions might lead a brother to fall.

Some churches take that too far and say that the behaviors themselves are sinful. That position is not supported biblically.

[Extra Stout]

My contention being that for whatever reason, organized religion has a truly corrupting influence. In the area of personal wealth alone I have seen this all too many times. In many of the churches I have attended one can find that the higher up in the hierarchy one goes the richer the clergy becomes. (I'm not even catholic). So instead of taking the generous donations these pastors get from their congregation and donating it to the community at large...you know the poor people that republicans hate so much... it gets invested in a new Lincoln navigator.

There are some churches run by "hucksters." San Antonio has a rather well-known one around 1604 and 281 North.

Some of those guys listed maybe I like and maybe I don't. I will make a distinction between people who made their money siphoning off hes versus those who made in a para-church capacity such as authoring books.

I'm not going to pass judgment on every rich Christian living an affluent lifestyle. By the world's standards, my 2000 square foot house with air conditioning and running water, two cars and an old SUV is extravagant. I know some wealthy Christians. There is some stuff they have that they don't really need, that I might find excessive. On the other hand, every time one of them closes a business deal, the church's new child care wing gets built, or twenty families get new houses from Habitat for Humanity, or a dozen trailers converted into mobile hospitals get shipped to Africa.

That to me is storing treasures in the kingdom of heaven. If somebody has $100 million, and gives $75 million to charity, what's left is still far more than they would ever need to live. Giving away that $75 million would be exhausting, though. How does one decide who does and who does not get funded? How much time and energy does it take to manage such a philanthropic exercise? It's not as if they just write out a check to God.

John Wesley once wrote that any rich person who doesn't give and give and give all that they have down until they can just eke out a simple lifestyle is a dead Christian. I suppose that Zacchaeus guy in Scripture who gave away only half his wealth was dead.

[Phenomanul]

And hemawhatever(I forgot your name), a purpose is served by the lottery. In Tennessee the lottery has enabled thousands of students to attend college who otherwise would have either not have had the money, or would have struggled emmensely. And the odds with small tickets arent that bad. You pay 2 bucks and have a shot at winning 50-100. I, for instance, have easily come out on top with tickets. I would say Ive spent 100 this year on tickets, at the most, and have won well over 200, including two 50's on $2 tickets. It's not a big risk, and there are worse things in the world.

Someone is making more profit however than is merited by the work being put in...

[Phenomanul]

How can you classify me a hypocrite? I feel that I'm fairly consistent.

You know stout I'm not really sure what it is that I have done to warrant your wrath, but even though you seem to truly despise my posts, I have grown to appreciate you as a poster.

In any event I haven’t really kept up with this thread and have no idea what the context of that particular statement was; I just saw it and added my input. My contention being that for whatever reason, organized religion has a truly corrupting influence. In the area of personal wealth alone I have seen this all too many times. In many of the churches I have attended one can find that the higher up in the hierarchy one goes the richer the clergy becomes. (I'm not even catholic). So instead of taking the generous donations these pastors get from their congregation and donating it to the community at large...you know the poor people that republicans hate so much... it gets invested in a new Lincoln navigator.


I am by no means an expert in Christian theology, but are we not suppose to be storing our treasures in the kingdom of heaven?

My father is a pastor of a small church of about 80 people... his salary is not what you would call 'living it large'... as far as I can remember he has made about 16K per year... for a family of 5.

Not all is explained by what you see on TV.

[Extra Stout]

Someone makes more profit however than is merited by the work put in...

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

[Phenomanul]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

As I said in an earlier post... I can see where you are coming from and either way I personally wouldn't gamble... And that's not to say that your POV is incorrect.

The example you gave with reference to alcohol is one I have always used... Alcohol isn't bad... taking it excessively, or causing your brother to fall is... I hadn't ever seen the same concept applied to gambling though... I just can't imagine Jesus or one of the disciples gambling for that matter...

ehhh it's moot for me.

[Mr. Peabody]

Someone is making more profit however than is merited by the work being put in...

Doesn't the Bible allow for this in the vineyard workers parable?

[Phenomanul]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

Of course some things are esteemed to also hold more 'value'... be it the case or not.

The State however makes millions of dollars annually by preying on the hopes of mass millions wanting to be the next 'rags-to-riches' story...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

There are some churches run by "hucksters." San Antonio has a rather well-known one around 1604 and 281 North.

Some of those guys listed maybe I like and maybe I don't. I will make a distinction between people who made their money siphoning off hes versus those who made in a para-church capacity such as authoring books.

I'm not going to pass judgment on every rich Christian living an affluent lifestyle. By the world's standards, my 2000 square foot house with air conditioning and running water, two cars and an old SUV is extravagant. I know some wealthy Christians. There is some stuff they have that they don't really need, that I might find excessive. On the other hand, every time one of them closes a business deal, the church's new child care wing gets built, or twenty families get new houses from Habitat for Humanity, or a dozen trailers converted into mobile hospitals get shipped to Africa.

That to me is storing treasures in the kingdom of heaven. If somebody has $100 million, and gives $75 million to charity, what's left is still far more than they would ever need to live. Giving away that $75 million would be exhausting, though. How does one decide who does and who does not get funded? How much time and energy does it take to manage such a philanthropic exercise? It's not as if they just write out a check to God.

John Wesley once wrote that any rich person who doesn't give and give and give all that they have down until they can just eke out a simple lifestyle is a dead Christian. I suppose that Zacchaeus guy in Scripture who gave away only half his wealth was dead.

All fair points I must admit. I really don't have a problem with wealth or wealthy people either, it is nice to be able to work hard and reap the benefits. I used to be a private attorney and I made a very good amount of money.

My problem with Christian churches has more to do with my personal experience, experience that has made me increasingly skeptical of church officials and cynical (a most unfortunate side effect, and not to be confused with sanctimonious contempt) with regards to religion.

When I was a young man my pastor was the leader of a fairly large church, and when I got old enough to begin noticing the amount of money he made (manifested in the large house, the luxurious clothes and cars) I became very disenchanted. After college I joined a small African-American church of about 30 people. I was with that congregation for nearly 20 years (having left last year). Every year I saw our Pastor become more and more repe ive about the importance of hes, I saw his sermons gradually become less profound and, to my dismay, I found his personal fortune growing in leaps and bounds. The man had only ever worked in the church, the post office, and the navy. There is not a snowball's chance in that he ac ulated his two Lincoln Navigators and three houses from his other occupations, and all this time the church building was falling down around us. I finally gave up on church after I heard my old bishop speak at our church's 100 year anniversary dinner. The man spoke about his many business ventures and all of the property he had owned, and this man had never worked for any secular business.

I have seen the Vatican, and while I rejoiced at the splendor I was repulsed by the thought of all the starving Catholics around the world.

I have been to Lynchburg and I drove past Gerry Fallwell's mansion-- I have seen churches here in the states that are the most ornate and beautiful buildings-- all the while I think about the poverty that surrounds them.

This has never bothered anyone I have ever discussed it with as much as it bothers me, but I have come to accept that.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Oh, and to whom are you referring, I don’t know of any famous San Antonio televangelists.

[Mr. Peabody]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

I understand your point, but the above statement is not true. Guys like Buffet, Gates, etc....are workaholics. That is how they get to be so rich. The work itself is the reward for them, not the money. If it was the money, they would have retired wealthy a long time ago.

[Extra Stout]

Oh, and to whom are you referring, I don’t know of any famous San Antonio televangelists.

Hagee.

[gameFACE]

God hates poor people.

He's Episcopalian?

I'm in the 49 percentile, BTW,

[Guru of Nothing]

WELL! Here is yet another instance where I begged God for clarity, only to wind up in the SpursTalk political forum.

Obviously, God hates me.

[Phenomanul]

WELL! Here is yet another instance where I begged God for clarity, only to wind up in the SpursTalk political forum.

Obviously, God hates me.

Maybe you just should have talked to HIM instead of being so demanding

[Guru of Nothing]

Maybe you just should have talked to HIM instead of being so demanding

Should I talk to God, or Jesus?

I seek clarity.

Thanks.

[2centsworth]

Actually, I've provided the evidence in this forum before and been blasted because some people don't like the results. You may have a different definition of what it means to be a Christian, but I define it as believing that Jesus is the son of God and savior of mankind. Now, whether someone is a "good" Christian or lives a life Jesus would approve is another question. But those who fit my definition of Christians are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists. So obviously, just believing that Jesus is the savior is not enough. I don't believe that teaching Intelligent Design or any other religious (in this case Christian but it could be any religion) theory in school does anything but get people to believe that Jesus is the savior. As the data shows, this doesn't do much for getting people to live a "good" lifestyle.

kind of off topic, but your post reminds me of the following verses:

mt 7:13-14
13You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

your definition of Christians doesn't match the bible's definition. The church's are loaded with false converts.

. As of yet, I've yet to murder, rape, pillage, steal or any of the other sins that religion teaches us to avoid

Here's what the bible says about that:

1. Mt 5:27-28- You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery"28 But I (Jesus) say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God is perfect and his standards are high, so lust=adultery.

2. One of the commandments is thou shall not bear false witness (lie). I'm sure you have done that.

3. Since I'm sure your a liar just like the rest of us, it's hard for me to believe that you have never stolen even something small.

4. As far as murder, Jesus said hate is comparable to Murder.

5. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That's called blasphemy and it's also a sin.

So at a minimum according to the bible you are more than likely are a lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterer at heart.


I have all the respect in the world for you Scott, but you are just as much a sinner as the rest of us.

[Phenomanul]

Should I talk to God, or Jesus?

I seek clarity.

Thanks.

Pray to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name.

[TDMVPDPOY]

im not a religous person, so i dont believe in stuff untill i see it myself.

the only thing i know life is short and i should live the way i want to, and that is to enjoy life at its best.

In many religous teachings are usually preachin about respecting others and livin a good life.

[Phenomanul]

im not a religous person, so i dont believe in stuff untill i see it myself.

the only thing i know life is short and i should live the way i want to, and that is to enjoy life at its best.

In many religous teachings are usually preachin about respecting others and livin a good life.

Can you see anti-matter? or a neutrino? How can you verify their existence???

[scott]

I do remember your study... I also remember questioning the methods used... and without being disrespectful... you just can't build conclusions based on your interpretation on who was or wasn't a Christian... It's not as easy as say.. pointing out an atheist who has professed no belief in any GOD or 'higher being'. A Christian is known by his 'fruit'... attributes of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... among others... Unless your study included the scope of their lives in order to assess the genuiness of their faith... then the whole study was inherently flawed. It was only as good as that initial basis.

I didn't make an interpretation on who wasn't or wasn't a Christian. If someone said they were a Christian, I took their word for it.

Again - maybe they are "bad Christians" or don't follow the Christian example - but they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior of Man. Their being able to live a Christian lifestyle sounds like a problem of the Christian faith failing to properly train it's pupil's in basic civil obedience, as atheists don't have the same problems with following the law. Tell me, why is that?

[scott]

kind of off topic, but your post reminds me of the following verses:

mt 7:13-14
13You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

your definition of Christians doesn't match the bible's definition. The church's are loaded with false converts.



Here's what the bible says about that:

1. Mt 5:27-28- You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery"28 But I (Jesus) say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God is perfect and his standards are high, so lust=adultery.

2. One of the commandments is thou shall not bear false witness (lie). I'm sure you have done that.

3. Since I'm sure your a liar just like the rest of us, it's hard for me to believe that you have never stolen even something small.

4. As far as murder, Jesus said hate is comparable to Murder.

5. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That's called blasphemy and it's also a sin.

So at a minimum according to the bible you are more than likely are a lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterer at heart.


I have all the respect in the world for you Scott, but you are just as much a sinner as the rest of us.

I'll accept that I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. So then if I'm on par with other sinners, who are stringent believers in the faith... what purpose does the faith serve?

[Phenomanul]

I didn't make an interpretation on who wasn't or wasn't a Christian. If someone said they were a Christian, I took their word for it.

Again - maybe they are "bad Christians" or don't follow the Christian example - but they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior of Man. Their being able to live a Christian lifestyle sounds like a problem of the Christian faith failing to properly train it's pupil's in basic civil obedience, as atheists don't have the same problems with following the law. Tell me, why is that?

The verse 2centsworth quoted 'wide is the path that leads to destruction but narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life' pretty much answers your question. Not everyone lives a righteous life.

Many Christians are hearers of the 'word' but not faithful prac ioners... besides, you don't honestly believe most people will come out and participate in a study (which if you followed the scientific method -- they should have had no clue what it was about), claim they were Christians, and then turn around and tell you about all of their mishaps and miscues... much less link it to their claim of the Faith.

Again, that type of study is very, very, very, difficult to quantify... it just is.

[Phenomanul]

I'll accept that I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. So then if I'm on par with other sinners, who are stringent believers in the faith... what purpose does the faith serve?

Following my post above, Faith serves to align our wills with the will of GOD.

It serves to strengthen those attributes which allow us to impact others.

It fulfills our longing to be accepted and loved no matter the cir stance... when and only when we genuinely seek forgiveness.

It serves to provide the hectic frenetic pace of our lives the 'peace that passes understanding.'

It serves to give us wisdom when our own is likely to fail...

There are many purposes fulfilled by Faith.

[td4mvp21]

For those of you who say you don't believe without seeing: we can't see your brain, so why should we believe you have one?