IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[strangeweather]

Oh, I didn't realize that Kobe was the leader of that Lakers team, sorry I must have been watching a different NBA than you. No hold on, you're wrong because I do remember, Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the league for 3 years in a row, and that was his team. Anybody that claims otherwise is ing moron. I don't give a how the series went agains the Spurs, they were 4-0 and 4-1 series! You act like Kobe bailed them out against you guys, in' ridiculous. And if I remember correctly anyways, he did kill you in the '01 series, and it wasn't like the Spurs shut him down in '02.

Shaq was a terrific player then -- he was incredible. But if you watch the Spurs-Lakers series in 2001 and 2002, Kobe was the one we couldn't stop. Shaq had a very good series, especially in '01, but was held below his season averages both years. Kobe was unstoppable in '01 and clearly better than Shaq in '02. Over the 9 games of the two Spurs series, Shaq managed to break 30 once, and was held below 20 twice. Kobe broke 30 3 times (once with 45 points), and was never held below 20.

Now I'm not going to call "pwn3d!!!" or anything, but David could defend Shaq, even when he was injured and past his prime. Kobe was the one we had trouble defending.

2001:

Game 1:
Shaq: 11-22 28 pts
Kobe: 19-35 45 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 8-21 19 pts
Kobe: 11-24 28 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 16-23 35 pts
Kobe: 14-27 36 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 11-19 26 pts
Kobe: 10-19 24 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 46-85, 54.1%, 27.0 pts
2000-01 regular season averages: 57.2%, 28.7 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 54-105, 51.4%, 33.25 pts.
2000-01 regular season averages: 46.4%, 28.5 pts


2002:

Game 1:
Shaq: 9-22 23 pts
Kobe: 8-18 20 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 7-16 19 pts
Kobe: 12-25 26 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 10-20 22 pts
Kobe: 15-31 31 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 9-18 22 pts
Kobe: 10-27 28 pts

Game 5:
Shaq: 7-18 21 pts
Kobe: 10-20 26 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 42-94 44.7% 21.4 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 57.9%, 27.2 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 55-121 45.4% 26.2 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 46.9%, 25.2 pts

[DirkAB]

Not that I'm condoning turning this thread into a whine about the refs one, but perhaps the real reason that conversations about anything related to basketball so often turn into ref complaining sessions is because the refs in the NBA are beyond atrocious. Fans of every team can agree to that one fact. I'm not gonna say that they're in favor of one team or player at all times, but you know they suck. It is pretty pathetic that the league is continuing to allow this. If they wanted all the complaining about refs to cease they'd get rid of the horrible refs and get some new ones, along with actually holding refs accountable for their horrid calls. Stop protecting them as much as they do. They're obviously not doing their jobs right.

Yeah, because officiating the NBA would be such an easy task, right? I mean you could probably do a better job. Come on, it is a difficult job, and a lot of those calls could go either way even after looking at replay. I agree that it could be better, but I have an appreciation for how difficult their job must be. My point was about how people pull the ref card out pretty quick on this board, especially when they seem to be losing an arguement. The officiating has been this way for a long time, but I bet this complaining is a relatively new thing to this board, at least to the degree that it is at, but I could be wrong.

[MissAllThat]

So that one game that Robinson got a quadruple double put it over the edge? That one regular season game that meant in the grand scheme of things?

Nate Thurmond had one too, so does that make him better than all those other guys? Accept for Robinson of course, and don't forget Hakeem had one also, and almost a second but he was 1 assist shy.

No, not that one game. There were several instances to prove that Robinson was the better player in his prime. I've seen them all play. That's why I went with Hakeem as #1 and Robinson as #2. Shaq got shut down by Ben Wallace in the 2004 playoffs and going by your logic that would mean that Wallace is better than all of them which I guess would look like this Wallace>Shaq>Duncan>Robinson. Pretty ridiculous if you as me. Shaq is not the reason all of his teams are getting to the finals. Yes, he's part of it, but Shaq alone is not the reason. Take Penny Hardaway away from the Magic and he probably wouldn't have made the Finals in '95. Take Kobe away from the Laker teams of 2000-2002, and they don't make the Finals. Take Wade away this year, and they don't make the finals. Kobe was to Shaq what Duncan was to Robinson. That one missing piece they needed to finally win an NBA le, and with both of them the missing piece was so good that they won more than one together. I'm not saying it makes Shaq a horrible player to have needed Kobe to win a championship, because it doesn't. Just like it doesn't make Robinson hany less of a player to have needed Duncan. They're both great players. I'm just giving David the slight edge. The finals appearance/championships argument is pointless because if that were the only thing to take into account, you'd have to put Shaq above Hakeem as the best of the 3 and well thats just not true at all.

[MissAllThat]

Yeah, because officiating the NBA would be such an easy task, right? I mean you could probably do a better job. Come on, it is a difficult job, and a lot of those calls could go either way even after looking at replay. I agree that it could be better, but I have an appreciation for how difficult their job must be. My point was about how people pull the ref card out pretty quick on this board, especially when they seem to be losing an arguement. The officiating has been this way for a long time, but I bet this complaining is a relatively new thing to this board, at least to the degree that it is at, but I could be wrong.

Could I do a better job? Right now if I just went and tried the job on a whim? No. If I had spent my whole life in training to become an NBA ref? Probably. I'm not the only one saying they're horrible. It's people all across the NBA, from fans, to coaches & players, to writers and commentators. Everybody sees that there is something wrong. I'm sure some calls are easy to get wrong, and I'm not expecting them to be perfect. But I would like to see them be right 75-80% of the time as opposed to the 50-55% that they're at right now. Lots of jobs are hard. Being an NBA coach is hard, but if a guy isn't doing a good job at it you know what happens? They get scrutinized by the teams fans and the media, and then they get fired. Thats how the world works. If you're not doing a good job, you get fired. Why are refs all of a sudden above this?

[DirkAB]

Shaq was a terrific player then -- he was incredible. But if you watch the Spurs-Lakers series in 2001 and 2002, Kobe was the one we couldn't stop. Shaq had a very good series, especially in '01, but was held below his season averages both years. Kobe was unstoppable in '01 and clearly better than Shaq in '02. Over the 9 games of the two Spurs series, Shaq managed to break 30 once, and was held below 20 twice. Kobe broke 30 3 times (once with 45 points), and was never held below 20.

Now I'm not going to call "pwn3d!!!" or anything, but David could defend Shaq, even when he was injured and past his prime. Kobe was the one we had trouble defending.

2001:

Game 1:
Shaq: 11-22 28 pts
Kobe: 19-35 45 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 8-21 19 pts
Kobe: 11-24 28 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 16-23 35 pts
Kobe: 14-27 36 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 11-19 26 pts
Kobe: 10-19 24 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 46-85, 54.1%, 27.0 pts
2000-01 regular season averages: 57.2%, 28.7 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 54-105, 51.4%, 33.25 pts.
2000-01 regular season averages: 46.4%, 28.5 pts


2002:

Game 1:
Shaq: 9-22 23 pts
Kobe: 8-18 20 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 7-16 19 pts
Kobe: 12-25 26 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 10-20 22 pts
Kobe: 15-31 31 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 9-18 22 pts
Kobe: 10-27 28 pts

Game 5:
Shaq: 7-18 21 pts
Kobe: 10-20 26 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 42-94 44.7% 21.4 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 57.9%, 27.2 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 55-121 45.4% 26.2 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 46.9%, 25.2 pts

You don't own .

Those stats, so ing what? In the 2 series Shaq still averaged like 24 points, 13 rebounds, a couple blocks and assists per game. Those numbers are still as good as if not better than Duncan's and Robinson's career numbers. You just owned yourself, you proved that Robinson and Duncan together could hold Shaq to numbers that were comparable to their own. Way to go guys. Christ, I certainly hope a couple of hall of fame centers could put at least a little dent in the guy's game.

[DirkAB]

Could I do a better job? Right now if I just went and tried the job on a whim? No. If I had spent my whole life in training to become an NBA ref? Probably. I'm not the only one saying they're horrible. It's people all across the NBA, from fans, to coaches & players, to writers and commentators. Everybody sees that there is something wrong. I'm sure some calls are easy to get wrong, and I'm not expecting them to be perfect. But I would like to see them be right 75-80% of the time as opposed to the 50-55% that they're at right now. Lots of jobs are hard. Being an NBA coach is hard, but if a guy isn't doing a good job at it you know what happens? They get scrutinized by the teams fans and the media, and then they get fired. Thats how the world works. If you're not doing a good job, you get fired. Why are refs all of a sudden above this?

Right 50% of the time? You're crazy. This isn't the thread for that conversation, start one to discuss it if you have something to say about it. I'm sick of all the excuses being littered in every thread.

[strangeweather]

You don't own .

That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.

Those stats, so ing what? In the 2 series Shaq still averaged like 24 points, 13 rebounds, a couple blocks and assists per game. Those numbers are still as good as if not better than Duncan's and Robinson's career numbers. You just owned yourself, you proved that Robinson and Duncan together could hold Shaq to numbers that were comparable to their own. Way to go guys. Christ, I certainly hope a couple of hall of fame centers could put at least a little dent in the guy's game.

If you had actually read my post, I never said it was proof that Tim>Shaq or Robinson>Shaq. Hegamboa posted that Kobe was the one we couldn't stop and you made a smartass reply about how Shaq was actually the one who owned everyone during those 3 years. If Shaq >>> Kobe in those two series, you're going to have to explain how.

As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

[Fabbs]

Arvydas Sabonis in his prime?

[Fabbs]

That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.
As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

Right on. He didn't get those 40 and 30s with some bulldoze crap move either.

[Bob Lanier]

Sabonis was better than Robinson or Ewing. I'm not sure how I'd rank him next to Duncan and O'Neal, but in any case he was no Dream.

[2centsworth]

The Dream
Shaq
Tim
DRob
Ewing

I don't rank Drob higher because down the stretch of games his offensive game wasn't refined enough to get crucial baskets and assist. However, Drob in his prime on the Suns would equal dynasty.

[DirkAB]

That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.


If you had actually read my post, I never said it was proof that Tim>Shaq or Robinson>Shaq. Hegamboa posted that Kobe was the one we couldn't stop and you made a smartass reply about how Shaq was actually the one who owned everyone during those 3 years. If Shaq >>> Kobe in those two series, you're going to have to explain how.

As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

So you and Hegamboa are taking 2 series out of Shaq's 3 year championship run to define his game? Basically that is what you are doing. That would be like me looking for a couple of series that Shaq absolutely dominated and pinning it all on that, but I won't because you need to look at the full 3-4 years. Hegamboa implied that Kobe was the best player on the Lakers, and that Shaq wasn't even the 2nd best against the Spurs! Derek Fisher was, do you agree? Hegamboa also said that Shaq was rendered a role player because of David Robinson in them series, do you agree? 24pts, 13rb, 2blk, and 2ast certainly would be the greatest role player ever if that were the case. Did I really need to address such asinine points? Sorry if I skipped over those.

BTW, did I ever say that Shaq played better than Kobe in those 2 series? No, all I said was it was Shaq's team and Shaq was the best player on the Lakers during those 3-4 years. Did that mean that he was better every game or every series? No, of course not, but he was definitely more responsible for that teams success than Kobe Bryant. If you feel that Kobe Bryant was the leader and best player on that team and was primarily responsible for their succuss, then you go ahead and knock yourself out trying to convince me. Because at this point I'm not going to waste my breathe trying to do otherwise, because common sense should do that for you.

[DirkAB]

Sabonis was better than Robinson or Ewing. I'm not sure how I'd rank him next to Duncan and O'Neal, but in any case he was no Dream.

I always heard he was the man, I wish I had access to some old video that showcases his skills. He was the best passing big guy I ever seen play, right in front of Vlade.

[strangeweather]

BAkriD,

Shaq was awesome, and I'm not disputing that. Obviously Shaq was the leader and best player on those teams, and he was never a role player, even in his "fat Elvis" phase.

You were the one that posted that Shaq was "unstoppable." I agree that he wasn't stopped, but the Spurs certainly could, as you put it, put a dent in his game even when he was at his peak.

If you're not disputing that Kobe was better against the Spurs, then I don't have a broader point to make.

[DirkAB]

BAkriD,

Shaq was awesome, and I'm not disputing that. Obviously Shaq was the leader and best player on those teams, and he was never a role player, even in his "fat Elvis" phase.

You were the one that posted that Shaq was "unstoppable." I agree that he wasn't stopped, but the Spurs certainly could, as you put it, put a dent in his game even when he was at his peak.

If you're not disputing that Kobe was better against the Spurs, then I don't have a broader point to make.

I think this is what you are looking for, yes the Spurs were able slow Shaq down somewhat in those 2 series, a lot more so in '02. Is that it? I hope it is. OK now the but. But, 24,13,2,2 is not even close to being stopped, so I would say he was still essentially unstoppable. It only made sense that the Lakers went to Kobe more in those series, when Shaq is going against 2 hall of fame bigs, why wouldn't you? It wasn't as if they were even close series, so I guess I don't really see the point of this arguing this aspect of their careers, especially when there is so much more data that can be looked at.

[strangeweather]

I think this is what you are looking for, yes the Spurs were able slow Shaq down somewhat in those 2 series, a lot more so in '02. Is that it? I hope it is. OK now the but. But, 24,13,2,2 is not even close to being stopped, so I would say he was still essentially unstoppable. It only made sense that the Lakers went to Kobe more in those series, when Shaq is going against 2 hall of fame bigs, why wouldn't you? It wasn't as if they were even close series, so I guess I don't really see the point of this arguing this aspect of their careers, especially when there is so much more data that can be looked at.

The usual Spurs fan version of the history of that period is a bit different than everyone else's. The world at large (basically correctly) sees the Shaq of that period as uncontrollable and Kobe as his sidekick. Spurs fans mostly remember Shaq as the guy we could keep under control, and Kobe as the one who could completely go off. Finally in '03, the Spurs still had Shaq under controls, they had Bowen on Kobe and had a better supporting cast than the Lakers, which was good enough to beat them even though David was in his last year. So for Spurs fans, this is an argument in its own right, independent of the question of how good Shaq was vs. everyone else.

That's also why Spurs fans (mostly incorrectly) have a propensity to underrate Shaq's place in history -- we were never afraid of him.

On the original list, Hakeem is the only guy I've personally got as clearly better than Shaq.

[DirkAB]

^^^^^^^^Interesting and good to know.

[fyatuk]

Half those awards are arbitrary, and I could give about them. Tell me, if they started the NBA over every season and they redrafted players every year, from '99-'03 what player would every single team pick first? Shaquille O'Neal guaranteed. Would you disagree with that? That is a more accurate indication of who the MVP is, when the day is over who do you want on your team. Who can't be stopped.

The big ones to me are the fact that Robinson one defensive play of the year, and was all-defensive a whole mess of times. Robinson playing defense made a much bigger difference over Shaq than Shaq's points advantage.

How about we discuss actual impact. Robinson as a rookie was the cornerstone of the largest positive turnaround in NBA history (he had help from Sean Elliot). When Robinson went down, with basically the same team as the previous years, the Spurs had the largest negative turnaround in league history.

Shaq's impact was no-where even close on any of his comings and goings.

From 92-96, the only person you can really put about Robinson was Jordan and Dream. And the only reason Dream wins out is the head-to-head dismemberment of Robinson.

So what's your point with the 4 years?

Let's do this. Shaq, 99-03:

286 games. 8,132 points (28.43 per game), 939 PF (3.28), 808 TO (2.83), 739 Blocks (2.58), 162 Steals (0.57), 982 Assists (3.43), 1121 Off Reb (3.92), 2354 Def Reb (8.23), 11044 Min (38.62), 1780/3238 FTs (54.97%), 3176/5527 FG (57.46%)

Robinson, 92-96:

325 games. 8,588 points (26.42 per game), 959 PF (2.95), 917 TO (2.82), 1062 Blocks (3.27), 311 Steals (1.57), 1165 Assists (3.58), 1023 Off Reb (3.15), 2665 Def Reb (8.20), 12545 Min (38.6), 2536/3361 FTs (75.45%), 3015/5871 FGs (51.35%).

Sorry, Robinson wins that in my opinion.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

1) Hakeem
2) Shaq
3) Duncan

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Hakeem used to fast during games that came during the holy month of Ramadan.

Man it's hard to fast as it is for a whole day, but try playing a whole game of Bball not being able to eat/drink anything. Much respect to him.

[fyatuk]

Hakeem used to fast during games that came during the holy month of Ramadan.

Man it's hard to fast as it is for a whole day, but try playing a whole game of Bball not being able to eat/drink anything. Much respect to him.

He was also always better in the early parts of Ramadan. He tailed off at the end of the month (who wouldn't), but you never wanted to face him in the first week or two of Ramadan.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

He was also always better in the early parts of Ramadan. He tailed off at the end of the month (who wouldn't), but you never wanted to face him in the first week or two of Ramadan.

I want to see some footage of him versus Shaq.

I'm guessing he was in Orlando back then, but I'm curious to see how Hakeem approached Shaq's hugeness. Duncan's success rate against him was less than pleasing. =/

[whottt]

I want to see some footage of him versus Shaq.

I'm guessing he was in Orlando back then, but I'm curious to see how Hakeem approached Shaq's hugeness. Duncan's success rate against him was less than pleasing. =/

Hakeem made him work on D...he didn't have the size to really stop Shaq so his defense was his offense...and a potent defense it was.

Interestingly enough, in that playoff run, Hakeem guarded Shaq one on one falmost exlusively for most of that series while against the Spurs the Rockets double teamed David Robinson in most of the games...the two games they didn't and where Drob and Hakeem were matched up one on one for most of the game...were both Rockets losses.


Since Drob averaged about 16 FT's per game in that series...it's a good thing for Hakeem they elected to do so...or else Drob would have been able to defend Hakeem with his offense.


Neither Hakeem nor Shaq ever had the speed to guard David Robinson...no bigman in the NBA did...which was Drob was extensively double teamed in nearly every playoff series of his career...more than any of the others were...With Drob the Spurs had the luxury of guarding Shaq one on one with him in the final year of his career, with a torn meniscus in his knee, and a back condition that left him with no feelings in his leg...

Don't even tell me that fat dumb could come anywhere near guarding David Robinson when Drob could actually move...he couldn't and David butt ed him repeatedly from day he entered the NBA until the day his back died. And Shaq ing knows it too...

Healthy Drob is 2-1 VS Shaq in the post season...and he's 3-1 against head Los Angeles Lakers.

Shaq couldn't even guard broken down Drob when the Spurs elected to run the offense through him...


Anyway...to those that get it congrats...I've leave the rest of the dumbasses to continue on with their incredily stupid belief that Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro were a better guard rotation than Parker and Manu and any rotations featuring Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, Sam Caseell, Dwayne Wade or early Penny...and that one man can win a le. I'll hope some day they actually watch basketball games of their own teams and notice the contributions of the other players and how bigmen are defended in the post season..hopefully they'll notice that the common element between Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem is a guy named Robert Horry who made the difference for each of them all at various points in their playoff careers with game winning series stealing and altering shots...Including game 1 of the 94-95 WCF, where he hit the game winner for Hakeem against the Spurs.


And if the playoffs are your misguided measure...Hakeem is unquestionably #1...because he ing owned all of them in the playoffs and he owned Kareem for good measure....don't be sitting there using hte playoffs as your measure and sticking Shaq ahead of Hakeem....because Hakeem swept Shaq, in the finals...he didn't sweep any of the others.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

^ Will respond when I get back from the gym.

But one quick point, I guess they double teamed David more b/c 1) David's not as good of a passer as Shaq and 2) Shaq's teammates probably relied more on him getting doubled and them getting open looks? k, be back later.

[whottt]

^ Will respond when I get back from the gym.

But one quick point, I guess they double teamed David more b/c 1) David's not as good of a passer as Shaq and 2) Shaq's teammates probably relied more on him getting doubled and them getting open looks? k, be back later.

No...Shaq is a not a better passer than David, Hakeem is not a better passer than David, Duncan is not a better passer than David, Ewing is not a better passer than David. David once lead the Spurs in assists and averaged 4.8 per game. No one else on the list except for Garnett even comes close to that.

You go find the list of C's that have lead their team in assists and averaged 4.8 or more per game...it's a short list.

They didn't double team Shaq because Shaq's point guard was first team all NBA...his PF was a 3 time NBA champion All Star, All NBA Defense...who could do more than just rebound, unlike Davids, and because he was surrounded by 3 point shooters. David, OTOH, had a PG hit one playoff 3 pointer in his 20 year career and who was stretching his range anytime he wasn't taking a layup,....

You couldn't just foul Drob...because he was a good FT shooter, and speed kills. All these other guys could be guarded somewhat effectively by one man because they weren't faster than most of the point guards in the NBA, unlike David Robinson. You had to double team DRob...you couldn't foul him, and you couldn't stay in front of him with one man defensively. And Drob was just as capable of throwing to an open man as any one...it's the open man that was the difference...

Shaq = ALL NBA First team PG
Drob = PG who made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career...and don't act like he had a shot from any closer either.

This is not brain surgery.


Drob lead the NBA in dunks 3 times and FTA a butt load of times...and he didn't do it by offensive fouling his way to the basket like Shaq...he did it by blowing mother ers off the court.

Did you guys just watch what happened when Duncan, 7 time all NBA D tried to guard Dirk?

David Robinson was of a lot faster than Dirk...watch what happens when Shaq gets isoed on Dirk in this series...and Hakeem wasn't that fast either. He was fast for a big man...but Drob was ing fast period.

It's not hard to figure this stuff out.


Repeat the after me:
Tony Parker>AJ
Manu>Vinny
Kobe
Penny
Dwayne
Drexler
Cassell>>>>