Possible key human evolution genes identified

[Yonivore]

That goes for everything in life.

Actually no, it doesn't.

We make judgements all the time. Just like we discriminate all the time.

You judge the quality of products so that you can make a determination of whether or not you want to buy them again. You judge the quality of an employee's work so that you can decide to whom to give raises or whom you're going to let go in a downsize. You judge criminals based on the law. You judge your sister's choice in clothing so that you can save her from embarrassment -- if she'll listen.

We all judge each others' behaviors and beliefs against our own behaviors and beliefs so that we can either modify our own behaviors and beliefs or attempt (with varying degrees of effort and zeal) to affect the behaviors and beliefs of others.

The only judgement reserved is that reserved by God -- and, it is -- in simple terms -- whether or not you're going to heaven or .

[Phenomanul]

Perfection is not only unattainable, it is not even expected.

I think you missed my point entirely.

How old was King David when laid Bathsheba and had her husband murdered? God forbid it takes a similar failing for all of us to reach pure repentance.

The point was that even in King David's lowest moment, GOD's grace is still sufficient to allow for repentance... as long as it is genuine. This model is available to us, but like you said; hopefully we don't have to fall as deep in the hole to draw upon it.

Well, unlike King David, most don't have the advantage of having their biblical history drilled into them from an early age by church elders and family. So, whose fault is that? The person who grows up not knowing their faith or the people who failed to impart it?

And, considering King David did have that advantage and still committed adultry and murder says alot for those who are obversely disadvantaged and have not.

There is no need to treat everyone as a child. Most people, once they have recieved the Holy Spirit (which is given to you when accepting Jesus Christ as Lord), know when they are doing right, and when they are doing wrong. Following through still requires a commited action. Don't kid yourself...

And living years of your life without lifting the Bible, while calling yourself a Christian is a sign of non-commitment. It has everthing to do with that person's true desire to follow GOD and very little to do with whether or not he was taught as a child. Again, these are professed Christians we're talking about.... not two day-old, or two week-old converts.

Like I said, in the area of faith and eternal salvation/damnation, "judge not, lest ye be judged."

I don't claim to know the state of others' souls.... But you should know that a Christian is 'known by their fruit'... If they don't earnestly seek GOD they will be fruitless trees... I'm not judging anyone any more than just making the observation (which doens't include judgement). Many in fact, hide behind that curtain and live out hypocritical lives... and unfortunately, this gives the rest of us a bad name.

[Yonivore]

I think you missed my point entirely.

No, I don't think I did.

The point was that even in King David's lowest moment, GOD's grace is still sufficient to allow for repentance... as long as it is genuine. This model is available to us, but like you said; hopefully we don't have to fall as deep in the hole to draw upon it.

And, only God knows if it is genuine. We should not even base our judgements on the behaviors of others in trying to determine if their repentence is genuine.

David was hand-picked as a child to lead the People of Israel. He understood the providence and divinity of his selection as King at no better time than when he stood across from Goliath and, placing his fate in God's hand, defeated a mighty army.

Did that understanding insulate him from further failings? And, none of us -- at least I don't think -- have even come close to having such an experience.

There is no need to treat everyone as a child. Most people, once they have recieved the Holy Spirit (which is given to you when accepting Jesus Christ as Lord), know when they are doing right, and when they are doing wrong. Following through still requires a commited action. Don't kid yourself...

And all people fail miserably. Some in worse and more public ways than others.

And living years of your life without lifting the Bible, while calling yourself a Christian is a sign of non-commitment.

Of whose non-commitment? That was my point. Maybe it's a lack of understanding more than a lack of committment.

It has everthing to do with that person's true desire to follow GOD and very little to do with whether or not he was taught as a child. Again, these are professed Christians we're talking about.... not two day-old, or two week-old converts.

Eh, some are better at it than others. But, again, these are matters I choose to leave to God to judge.

I will agree there are professed Christians that are anything but. But, in that sense, I believe there are people who act as Christians that aren't in the faith.

I don't claim to know the state of others' souls....

That's a relief.

But you should know that a Christian is 'known by their fruit'... If they don't earnestly seek GOD they will be fruitless trees...

Really? What of people who bear the same good fruit and profess to be Athiests?

I personally know a man who spent 45 years of his life believing he was an athiest and is now a Christian minister.

I say it's all a matter of God's timing and that you should quit trying to do His job for Him.

I'm not judging anyone any more than just making the observation (which doens't include judgement). Many in fact, hide behind that curtain and live out hypocritical lives... and unfortunately, this gives the rest of us a bad name.

We give ourselves a bad name. You shouldn't be burdened with the sins of another. That was the promise of Christ. Have you forgotten? You have the power to be blameless yourself -- thinking that others affect how the world sees you is a cop out.

[Phenomanul]

No, I think your strict interpretation is far off. I will not beg God for entry to anywhere. If my entry into His kingdom is predicated upon me groveling for it, or somehow living on faith that he is truly good and loving without ever proving it, then He can keep it. Im sorry if this offends you or anyone else, but if you are willingly ignorant enough to try and pass a test no one is even sure exists, good for you. When your Creator whispers in your ear to jump off a bridge, or kill a bunch of people, or suppress certain ideas, as so many have claimed with fervency in the past, just keep it to yourself. You stand in righeousness from nothing you personally have ever done, have ever achieved, or have ever shared except that you worship a deity. Congratulations on being one of the crowd. I was raised to question everyone and everything, accept nothing at face value. Not even traditional religion. You know nothing more (or less) than I do. You just think you do. Which makes you a know-it-all loud-mouth. Stick with your flock and your sheppard, they might actually give a damn.

Manny had it spot on. I will not beg, anyone for anything. Not even my life, this one or the next. Prideful? Maybe. But just because your particular belief system is popular does not make it correct. Just ask the current Republican party (lol).

--------------------------------------------------------------

I tire of this thread and this subject. There are really two camps, the Religion>Science crowd and the Science>Religion crowd. I dont care how many degrees from the greatest schools this Earth has to offer any member on this board has. Saying the Earth is 6000 years old and that carbon dating is a hoax is really very scary to me. To me alone. I respect your opinion, Boa. Youve obviously thought long and hard about your value system, your education, your life, etc.

But you do scare me. I would say your mindset and perversion of science is what mainly scares me. Evolution and the age of Earth are the only subjects you choose to attack because they directly contradict yor literal interpretation of the Bible. Challenging other popualr theories to the length and breadth at which you attacked Evolution and Carbon Dating wouldnt even be worth it. If you truly stood on scientific ground, you would be given endless streams of money to research and prove your theories.

My cousin just graduated with his masters in Chemical Engineering. He just got accepted into a research lab in Arizona (something to do with experimental plastics, dont ask me, not my area). He knows the Lab Director from grad school (professor-student relationship) and has a serious chance to be running his own lab in a couple of years (maybe more).

The Lab Director (PhD) is funding this thru a research grant he got from his dissertation (sp?). It was disseminated thru the usual venues and was picked up by a muil ude of large corporations offering money for specific research. Obviously, according to his NDA, he didnt tell me anything at all about what specifically he is working on. I mean nothing. Hes new, doesnt know exactly what he can discuss, so he doesnt discuss at all.

My point is, even theoretical science get research grants. Evolutionary scientists spend their lifetimes researching the comon links in current and extinct species. Yet you stand on your education providing minimal, controversial data to support your claims. Whilst the evolutionary scientists stand on decades of information, science, data and the like, yet you feel confidant enough to say "Nope, they are dead wrong."

Thats y. Some would say arrogant. I would say delusional, but yet I dont hold any degree in any field.

My point being, you can believe as you will. You can convince other like-minded religious types of the same ideals. But dont expect to be taken seriously when you denounce outright that carbon-dating is a hoax, that the world is 6000 years old and Noahs flood killed the dinosaurs.

Putting those 3 key points in one sentence really drives home your need, your desire, your agenda. That your God is right, and everyone else is wrong. Science, tradition, scientific method, known fact, common practices accepted the world over by leading scientists be damned. Its fanaticism that maybe you dont even realize or care to admit.

I accept their is a creator. I personally believe that he did in fact provide answers to the obviously curious mind. But we, humans, are not unique. We arent the only ones with souls, with minds, with ambition. If the universe is truly devoid of life outside of Earth, what a complete and utter waste of space.

Just out of clarification... I never said carbon-dating was a hoax... I said it had a limited range of applicability. Meaning you can't use it to date 50,000 year old material if the isotope only allows you to determine it's age over the last 10,000 years or so. 'Perversion of Science' would be to ignore that facet of the field.

I do believe in Noah's flood, just like I believe in the Exodus etc... (did you catch the History Channel's show on 'Deciphering the Exodus' - they found three clay tablets in a mycenean/minoan?? tomb that dated back to the time of Moses that illustrated the demise of Pharoh and his men by the collapse of the Red Sea... Egyptian gold and Hebrew artifacts were found in that same tomb.)

And regarding the age of the earth there is evidence for a young earth model and evidence for a multi-billion year old model. I'm inclined to gravitate towards one but that doesn't preclude the other from being right. I've said that much on several occasions. If I change my mind, I don't need to hide in a corner, I'll admit my error and move on. The point is, none of this matters when the presence of GOD himself is manifested in our lives. What greater proof is needed to take Him by His Word? Of course, this is a completely intangible experience and one can't prove it.

[Yonivore]

Just out of clarification...blah...blah...blah...

I judge that you're too pious.

[Phenomanul]

No, I don't think I did.


And, only God knows if it is genuine. We should not even base our judgements on the behaviors of others in trying to determine if their repentence is genuine.

David was hand-picked as a child to lead the People of Israel. He understood the providence and divinity of his selection as King at no better time than when he stood across from Goliath and, placing his fate in God's hand, defeated a mighty army.

Did that understanding insulate him from further failings? And, none of us -- at least I don't think -- have even come close to having such an experience.


And all people fail miserably. Some in worse and more public ways than others.


Of whose non-commitment? That was my point. Maybe it's a lack of understanding more than a lack of committment.


Eh, some are better at it than others. But, again, these are matters I choose to leave to God to judge.

I will agree there are professed Christians that are anything but. But, in that sense, I believe there are people who act as Christians that aren't in the faith.


That's a relief.


Really? What of people who bear the same good fruit and profess to be Athiests?

I personally know a man who spent 45 years of his life believing he was an athiest and is now a Christian minister.

I say it's all a matter of God's timing and that you should quit trying to do His job for Him.


We give ourselves a bad name. You shouldn't be burdened with the sins of another. That was the promise of Christ. Have you forgotten? You have the power to be blameless yourself -- thinking that others affect how the world sees you is a cop out.

Forget it... we're running in circles. You've accused me of judging others and in doing so you've judged me. Discernment and judgement are two different things.

The original point was that true followers of GOD are in the minority and not a majority like DR had suggested.

The Bible says that much, "Narrow is the path that leads to righteousness and wide is the road that leads to destruction." If you had a problem with why I believed that statement then look it up; it's there.

The reality is that many Christians don't practice their faith. And thus, an apparently larger group is in fact truly smaller than it seems. And yes, I know fully well that only GOD is qualified to quantify that gap Himself - not me. Which is why I said you missed my point.

[Phenomanul]

I judge that you're too pious.

I strive to live a life that is worthy of my Lord. If that offends you, I'm sorry. I don't live my life to assuage your criteria -- I try to please GOD alone, and that's all that should matter. And no, I'm not anywhere near perfect - I have many flaws.

I also have pet-peeves: and being called a 'spritual snob' is not something I take kindly or rejoice over.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of bed today or something? What's with all the anger?

[Yonivore]

I strive to live a life that is worthy of my Lord. If that offends you, I'm sorry. I don't live my life to assuage your criteria -- I try to please GOD alone, and that's all that should matter. And no, I'm not anywhere near perfect - I have many flaws.

So, why are your sins less relevant to the discussion than others? After all, doesn't Paul teach that, in the eyes of the Lord, all sin is equal and separates us from the love of God? Murder and piety alike?

I also have pet-peeves: and being called a 'spritual snob' is not something I take kindly or rejoice over.

The pious crack was tongue-in-cheeks but, if it burns -- who am I to disagree.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of bed today or something? What's with all the anger?

Point to the anger please.

[Yonivore]

Forget it... we're running in circles. You've accused me of judging others and in doing so you've judged me. Discernment and judgement are two different things.

Your judgement and mine are two different things as well.

The original point was that true followers of GOD are in the minority and not a majority like DR had suggested.

My point is that the true followers of God are known only by God.

The Bible says that much, "Narrow is the path that leads to righteousness and wide is the road that leads to destruction." If you had a problem with why I believed that statement then look it up; it's there.

I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with you claiming to know who's on the path and who's in the ditches.

The reality is that many Christians don't practice their faith. And thus, an apparently larger group is in fact truly smaller than it seems. And yes, I know fully well that only GOD is qualified to quantify that gap Himself - not me. Which is why I said you missed my point.

Again, I don't think I did miss your point.

[Phenomanul]

So, why are your sins less relevant to the discussion than others? After all, doesn't Paul teach that, in the eyes of the Lord, all sin is equal and separates us from the love of God? Murder and piety alike?


The pious crack was tongue-in-cheeks but, if it burns -- who am I to disagree.


Point to the anger please.

You are harping on something that is irrelevant to the original point.

All Christians are sinners, since no one is faultless. Many choose to live in their sinful indulgence. I try to live redeemed. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Again, you say 'tongue-in-cheeks' but then keep on insinuating my whole perspective is spiritually arrogant. It doesn't burn. I'm irritated by your stubborness... particularly because our disagreement stems from your miscalculated assessment of the statistic I quoted.

How many times must I repeat, I'm not judging anyone if I observe a lackadaisical approach in someone's faith. I can't measure genuineness -- only GOD can do that. But speaking to people who have professed to be Christian for years, and then finding out that they don't even know where the book of Matthew is, or that they don't know 'how to pray' -- Hey, these are signs of apathy on their part - barring a mental disability of course. This is not to say that they don't have a relationship with GOD. They've just chosen to experience Him in a limited way.

2nd Timothy says "Study to show thyself approved unto GOD" --- how can you be a Christian for years and go about your business without ever trying to learn WHO GOD is? What He wants for our lives? Or without developing a prayer habit. The Bible is a reflection of GOD's character, but if we don't read the Bible we will remain spiritually stagnant. If we don't pray we will remain spirtually stagnant. JESUS himself said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of the Lord". Learning WHO GOD is, is an essential step in the path for spiritual maturity. Many are too lazy or non-committal to take this step. This observation in and of itself is not judgement.

[Phenomanul]

Your judgement and mine are two different things as well.


My point is that the true followers of God are known only by God.

Where have I said any different.

I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with you claiming to know who's on the path and who's in the ditches.

Produce this list. You won't find it. I never said that.

Again, I don't think I did miss your point.

Fine. Whatever. Just bear in mind that the phrase, "ye shall know them by their fruit" is explicitly stated in the Bible. This is not something I made up, nor is it something that implies judgement. Otherwise, it would never have been written. Think about it.

[Yonivore]

Where have I said any different.

If you'll look back through your posts, just in this thread alone, you've as much said that many people who claim to be Christians must not be because they choose to not live up to Christian standards while at the same time you hold yourself up to be a Christian while, at the same time, admitting that you fail to live up to the Christian standards yourself.

Do you see the irony of that position?

I think you've judged their hearts when you use the word "choose" as you specifically did earlier in this thread:

All Christians are sinners, since no one is faultless. Many choose to live in their sinful indulgence. I try to live redeemed. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

How do you know what they "choose?" Wasn't it Paul -- himself a wretched example of humanity before God had that little talk with him on the road to Damascus -- who, while begging God to remove a thorn from his side, said he could not understand why it is that we do the things we hate while, at the same time, not doing the things we know are right?

I think so. It's in his epistle to the church in Rome somewhere.

Produce this list. You won't find it. I never said that.

List? List of what? You've said there are many professed Christians that must not be Christians at all because of their behaviors.

Fine. Whatever. Just bear in mind that the phrase, "ye shall know them by their fruit" is explicitly stated in the Bible. This is not something I made up, nor is it something that implies judgement. Otherwise, it would never have been written. Think about it.

You'll find a lot in the Bible. Much, if not most, of which can't be just taken out of context and used to settle an argument of this nature.

If we shall know them by their fruit, what do you make of the person who has never professed a belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and, yet, manages to produce "fruit" that is consistent with the principles of Christianity?

While I'm not a biblical scholar, I'm betting there's a lot more context surrounding that verse which is important to understanding it's ultimate meaning.

[Phenomanul]

Sorry for the delay... I've been pretty busy.

If you'll look back through your posts, just in this thread alone, you've as much said that many people who claim to be Christians must not be because they choose to not live up to Christian standards while at the same time you hold yourself up to be a Christian while, at the same time, admitting that you fail to live up to the Christian standards yourself.

Do you see the irony of that position?

You've again misunderstood my perspective.

Christianity is a lifestyle not a le.

HOW many times must I repeat that only GOD can gauge a human heart. Being accused of gauging them myself is insulting. Particularly when I'm the one stating I try not to do it.

If you can't understand that there are 'bench warmers' in churches across America you're only fooling yourself. Speaking about the reality of this condition does not imply that I have judged them. It is merely an observation. The Bible clearly states, "not everybody who calls me Lord will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven" (no context is needed the message is very clear).

Our disagreement lies with the definition of judgement. Discernment does not equate to judgement otherwise, how else would you know which doctrines were biblically sound and which ones weren't? Are you judging a congregation if you don't like what they preach?

I think you've judged their hearts when you use the word "choose" as you specifically did earlier in this thread:

I will concede on this point considering it was bad word choice. But I try not to judge anyone specifically or single them out.

How do you know what they "choose?" Wasn't it Paul -- himself a wretched example of humanity before God had that little talk with him on the road to Damascus -- who, while begging God to remove a thorn from his side, said he could not understand why it is that we do the things we hate while, at the same time, not doing the things we know are right?

I think so. It's in his epistle to the church in Rome somewhere.

Seeking GOD and hiding from /avoiding GOD are two different things -- but again this is only something GOD can know. It is true, Paul struggled through these obstacles but we are later told by Paul himself that they served to strengthen his faith. Some people struggle with temptations because they are 'playing with fire' needlessly. Neither of these statements implies that a connection to GOD is severed. But some people feel that they alone can handle their problems whereas in Paul's example he relied on GOD for his sustenance.

List? List of what? You've said there are many professed Christians that must not be Christians at all because of their behaviors.

Not behaviors. From their lack of dedication. How can you be dedicated if you don't even bother to study GOD's Word? <--- Your typical bench warmer. This is an obvious attribute that one can percieve in others after brief chats with them. Again, no judgement is implied, nor is their standing with GOD questioned. These people will only rob themselves of the blessing of experiencing GOD fully.

You'll find a lot in the Bible. Much, if not most, of which can't be just taken out of context and used to settle an argument of this nature.

If we shall know them by their fruit, what do you make of the person who has never professed a belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and, yet, manages to produce "fruit" that is consistent with the principles of Christianity?

While I'm not a biblical scholar, I'm betting there's a lot more context surrounding that verse which is important to understanding it's ultimate meaning.

Here are the verses around that phrase; you tell me...

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

-- Matthew 7:12-29




Notice Jesus says... ye shall know them. It is a given that GOD knows, but He is clearly denoting that people around them would know too.

As far as the athiest producing 'good fruit' --- well... I honestly don't know.

[Yonivore]

Sorry for the delay... I've been pretty busy.

No sweat.

I'm only going to address a couple of points...

Seeking GOD and hiding from /avoiding GOD are two different things -- but again this is only something GOD can know. It is true, Paul struggled through these obstacles but we are later told by Paul himself that they served to strengthen his faith. Some people struggle with temptations because they are 'playing with fire' needlessly. Neither of these statements implies that a connection to GOD is severed. But some people feel that they alone can handle their problems whereas in Paul's example he relied on GOD for his sustenance.

Jonah and Moses both tried to hide from God. God pressed them into service. In Jonah's case, when he tried to flee the opposite direction from Nineveh, God had a great fish swallow him up and spit him out onto the beach a short distance from where He wanted him to be.

Moses tried to beg and barter his way out of the deal God handed him.

Then, just look at the disciples. Most of them were "bench warmers" until after Christ was crucified and they witnessed him ressurrected. Imagine that! Hanging out with the Lord, in the flesh, watching him perform miracles and still, you doubt and bicker and equivocate.

Not behaviors. From their lack of dedication. How can you be dedicated if you don't even bother to study GOD's Word? <--- Your typical bench warmer. This is an obvious attribute that one can percieve in others after brief chats with them. Again, no judgement is implied, nor is their standing with GOD questioned. These people will only rob themselves of the blessing of experiencing GOD fully.

Lack of dedication is a behavior.

As far as the athiest producing 'good fruit' --- well... I honestly don't know.

Well, you listed a few verses around the quote. Did you list enough? Did you consider other biblical text that might be relevant? Compare it to the other gospels?

And, as far as an athiest producing "good fruit," I do know. I've seen it.

[Phenomanul]

Lack of dedication is a behavior.

But seeing that something is red doesn't mean I'm the one that will paint it white. It is merely an observation... in fact, I encourage some of my students at church to continually study the scriptures and to develop a habit of prayer. Some don't do it, I can tell because they don't put forth the effort to study the books and always have to reference the index to find a book etc... In no way do I question their standing with GOD. I do however, let them know that in the end, they will only end up limiting their own experience with GOD. Again, no judgement is imparted.

The statement that there are Christians who profess to be Christians and are not is a concept directly from the Bible (in that same passage in fact).

Stating this does not imply judgement was imparted.

Well, you listed a few verses around the quote. Did you list enough? Did you consider other biblical text that might be relevant? Compare it to the other gospels?

Yes I read them, they say the same thing. JESUS clearly implies one can distinguish a tree that bears good fruit from one that doesn't.

And, as far as an athiest producing "good fruit," I do know. I've seen it.

I've thought about it longer and I remembered the following passage. So if you couple the previous passage with the following verses.... you tell me:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

- John 15:1-8


And as far as salvation goes... the answer is given in John 14:6.

[jochhejaam]

[

QUOTE=DarkReign] I will not beg God for entry to anywhere. If my entry into His kingdom is predicated upon me groveling for it, or somehow living on faith that he is truly good and loving without ever proving it, then He can keep it.

I didn't beg God for to forgive me and no where in the Bible does it say anything about begging or groveling for forgiveness. I just asked Him (Jesus) in earnest to forgive me. It was as simple as that.

Im sorry if this offends you or anyone else, but if you are willingly ignorant enough to try and pass a test no one is even sure exists, good for you.

There was no test for me to pass. All of the work and effort needed to free mankind from sin was taken care of 2,000 years ago by Jesus Christ who died on the Cross. The only thing I did was acknowledge that I was born a sinner and came to the heartfelt realization that Christ died for my sins. From that day on it's up to me to try to live life the way Christ lived his and to tell others about it so they might have the same opportunity to receive eternal life.
No groveling, begging or tests to pass.

When your Creator whispers in your ear to jump off a bridge, or kill a bunch of people, or suppress certain ideas, as so many have claimed with fervency in the past, just keep it to yourself.

What a crock of BS. You use extreme examples of macabre behavior by nutcases and attribute that behavior to Christians as a whole.

You admitted that you've only read a couple chapters of Genesis, then threw the Book down. What happened to the guy that was taught to question everyone and everything? Were you taught to question, object and condemn something without any real knowledge of it? That's what you've done and by choosing to do so you reek with the stench of hypocrisy . You know nothing about God or Christ but yet you have the audacity to shout out " your God"!
Who's ignorant DR?!

You stand in righeousness from nothing you personally have ever done, have ever achieved, or have ever shared...

Spot on. I am not righteous, His righteous dwells within me. As I previously stated, He did it all, the achievement was His but he did it for us and I accepted that with open arms.

Congratulations on being one of the crowd.

Actually you're the one that's lost in the crowd but it's hardly something to congratulate you for.

Quote=Jesus Christ: For the gate is wide and the way broad that leads to destruction
And many enter through it.
But the gate is small and the path narrow that leads to life
And only a few find it.

Now, back to the subject of the key human evolution genes.

[RandomGuy]

The Bible quoted them (angel/human hybrids) as being giants.... that's the connection.

Did you get some anti-matter yet?

Isn't that something of a false dichotomy?

Anti-matter is based on verifiable data derived from research. It's existance can be proved in a laboratory, and indeed small amounts of anti-matter have been created in certain high-speed particle accelerators.

Angel/human hybrids are suggested by an arbitrarily chosen translation of a book written thousands of years ago and can only be proven once they or their remains have been found.

To equate the two in terms of validity defies logic.

[RandomGuy]

FWIW, while two-thirds didn't get it right, the 99 percent is a bit high.

Human-chimp DNA difference trebled:


Scientists sort the chimps from the men
11 April 2002
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

We are more unique than previously thought, according to new comparisons of human and chimpanzee DNA.

[article truncated for sake of brevity]

Interesting bit given the article that started off the whole shebang.

[RandomGuy]

I can accept this theory. However, I still believe that man was created as a different en y altogether. Adam was made out of 'the clay of the earth' and bore no genetic linearity with the rest of the animals -- including primates. We have a spirit and a soul -- none of the other animals do. In other words, animals were given a soul but were not endowed with an immortal spirit.

I am reading this whold thing from the beginning and there is a good chance that this is addressed on a later page, but...

So if the first human bor no genetic linearity with "the rest of the animals", if we find a sequence of genes, especially non-functioning junk genes, a few billion charactors long that correspond exactly with other animals that we allegedly have a common ancestor with, then this is simply (against all statistical science) a coincidence?

and if, the further away from us in the evolutionary tree an animal is, then the fewer of these exact sequences we find, just as evolution would predict, that is also a coincidence?

Or is that just waved away as "god did it that way on purpose"?

[RandomGuy]

Not unguided.... I'm a proponent of a guided-adaptation theory.

And yes, I believe in Noah's flood.

I used to think guided-adaptation was correct, but anymore I simply think that the universe is simply structured so that it was a statistical certainty that some form of intelligent life arose.

I think the whole thing was set in motion and let to roll where-ever it went.

We just happen to be one form of intelligent life among a statistically certain many.

Quantum physics changes things a bit more than most have quite assimilated yet.

[boutons_]

God loves non-linearities. Bible-thumpers tell us so.

[Phenomanul]

I used to think guided-adaptation was correct, but anymore I simply think that the universe is simply structured so that it was a statistical certainty that some form of intelligent life arose.

I think the whole thing was set in motion and let to roll where-ever it went.

We just happen to be one form of intelligent life among a statistically certain many.

Quantum physics changes things a bit more than most have quite assimilated yet.

The odds are not statistically certain... if anything, the odds would tell us that a genetically relevant DNA strand could never arise from nothing at all -- and that its 'random' construction would require far more time than the universe is old.

[Phenomanul]

Isn't that something of a false dichotomy?

Anti-matter is based on verifiable data derived from research. It's existance can be proved in a laboratory, and indeed small amounts of anti-matter have been created in certain high-speed particle accelerators.

Angel/human hybrids are suggested by an arbitrarily chosen translation of a book written thousands of years ago and can only be proven once they or their remains have been found.

To equate the two in terms of validity defies logic.

Good catch. I meant to write dark-matter.

The point was, I believe in the existence of dark-matter; without the need for its physical find.

[boutons_]

Scientists Offer Proof of 'Dark Matter'

Analysis of Galactic Collision Said to Reveal Mysterious Substance

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 22, 2006; A01

For decades, many scientists have theorized that the universe is made up of nearly undetectable mysterious substances called dark matter and dark energy. But until yesterday there was no proof that the subatomic matter actually exists.

After studying data from a long-ago collision of two giant clusters of galaxies, researchers now say they are certain dark matter does exist and plays a central role in creating and defining gravity throughout the universe.

While the scientists are still not sure exactly what dark matter is, since they have yet to identify it in a laboratory, they said that the workings of the universe cannot be explained without it.

The finding will have potentially great impact on an active debate among physicists and cosmologists about not only dark matter but also the workings of gravity that it helps explain. Indeed, the theory of dark matter evolved largely to explain the finding several decades ago that there was not enough visible matter in the universe to produce and account for the gravity needed to keep galaxies from flying apart.

"A universe that's dominated by dark stuff seems preposterous, so we wanted to test whether there were any basic flaws in our thinking," said Doug Clowe of the University of Arizona in Tucson, leader of the NASA-Harvard University study. "These results are direct proof that dark matter exists."

The breakthrough came using data from NASA's orbiting Chandra X-Ray Observatory and involved information from what researchers called the most massive release of detected energy in the universe since the big bang.

Scientists said that the "bullet cluster," formed by a collision between an enormous cluster of galaxies more than 3 billion light-years away and a smaller galaxy cluster, demonstrated the existence of dark matter. In effect, the collision stripped the dark matter away from visible matter. Once stripped, dark matter was clearly identified by the strong gravitational pull that it exerted.

"We now have direct evidence" of dark matter, said Sean Carroll, a cosmologist in the physics department of the University of Chicago, who did not participate in the study. "There is no way to explain the observations without dark matter."

While the theoretical existence of dark matter has been broadly embraced for years -- and has now been further endorsed by some of the most prominent researchers and ins utions in the field -- a strong countertheory has also grown, contending that the laws of gravity established by Newton and Einstein need modification. The group supporting this theory believes that a relatively limited tweaking of those laws, especially as they pertain to the massive nature of faraway galaxies, could explain the missing gravity better than could undetectable dark matter.

Stacy McGaugh, an astrophysicist at the University of Maryland, has been one of the dark-matter skeptics, and he said yesterday that he remained unconvinced.

"I've been aware of this result some time, and I agree that it is interesting and may make more sense in terms of dark matter than alternative gravity," he said. "However, it is premature to say so."

He said that a definitive detection of dark-matter particles would mean "grabbing them in the laboratory, not just inferring that their effects can be the only possible explanation for an observation before the alternatives have actually been checked."

The NASA-affiliated team that announced its findings yesterday said that the next step in trying to understand dark matter (and related dark energy) is, in fact, to identify it in a laboratory. That task has proved difficult so far, they said, because dark matter leaves no detectable traces, except to create a gravitational pull.

"This finding doesn't tell us where dark matter comes from," Carroll said. "It tells us that dark matter exists, but it doesn't say what it is, or why there's so much of it. The real adventure is ahead of us."

The researchers said yesterday that visible and detectible matter -- the atoms in everything from gases to elephants and stars -- makes up only 5 percent of the matter in the universe. Another estimated 20 percent is subatomic dark matter, which has no discernible qualities except the ability to create gravitational fields and pass through any object without leaving a trace. The rest, they said, is the even more mysterious dark energy, which fills empty space with a force that appears to negate gravity and push the universe to expand ever faster.

According to team member Maxim Markevitch of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Mass., their discovery was made only because the Chandra observatory was able to clearly track the effects of the collision between the two galaxy clusters. Monitors on Chandra, which has an elliptical orbit that sometimes carries it one-third of the distance to the moon, were able to detect and describe an unusual process in which the super-hot gases of the galaxy clusters separated from the remaining stars.

The super-hot gases have qualities that typically would have become the seat of any new gravitational fields, cosmologists say, but instead they went with the stars. That could happen, Markevitch said, only if dark matter separated from the gases and collected with the stars.

The team's paper will be published in the Astrophysical Journal Letters.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

=====================

So does the expanding universe now have enough mass to stop expanding and then to collapse into a point before Big Banging again, and again, oscillating, as Vedic cosmology claims?

[Phenomanul]

I am reading this whold thing from the beginning and there is a good chance that this is addressed on a later page, but...

So if the first human bor no genetic linearity with "the rest of the animals", if we find a sequence of genes, especially non-functioning junk genes, a few billion charactors long that correspond exactly with other animals that we allegedly have a common ancestor with, then this is simply (against all statistical science) a coincidence?

and if, the further away from us in the evolutionary tree an animal is, then the fewer of these exact sequences we find, just as evolution would predict, that is also a coincidence?

Or is that just waved away as "god did it that way on purpose"?

We were engineered in a similar fashion. Hemoglobin is hemoglobin... which strongly resembles myoglobin... which bears resemblance to chlorophyll etc...

You would have to take a closer look at our genome to know that the techniques used to create 'matches' were flawed.... Why? Because the matches are created only after the genes are sliced, sliced and spliced.... But the placement of the code is just as important as the sequence itself.

It's a flawed conclusion to think that because species A has a 20 segment section that matches identically to that of species B, that they then share a similar gene. Was it located in the same codified area? That would be the more important and telling question? Furthermore, we are a couple of years removed from making this cross reference with multiple species.... , it took over 15 years (and billions of dollars) just to map the human genome. Without the interest, who do you think is going to pump the money to map the entire genomes of several other species? Only by comparing genomes of multiple species can your premise be correct... otherwise, it's not.